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Old 06-21-2002, 02:41 AM   #1
Jermaine Alley
Dojo: Aikido Of Richmond
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Kick Defenses...

I have an understanding that a lot of traditional Japanese martial arts don't incorporate many kicking techniques.
Do any of you incorporate kicking techniques/defenses into your training?
Where does Aikido stand on kick defenses?
What experiences can you guys offer that deal with kicking "real world" confrontations or dojo experiences?
Do any of you have an equal training regiment including kick defenses? Why or why not?
Many people say that "you can't kick as fast as you can punch"....oh how very untrue..i been there to see those gifted fast kickers that exist out here.
Since our legs are three times as strong as our upperbody, why don't we put more of an emphasis on kicks?
Jermaine...
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Old 06-21-2002, 05:41 AM   #2
Greg Jennings
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Re: Kick Defenses...

Quote:
Originally posted by Jermaine Alley
...Since our legs are three times as strong as our upperbody, why don't we put more of an emphasis on kicks?
Do we use our legs to work with a sledgehammer?

I think one reason we don't do more kicking is that most of us are lousy kickers.

Best Regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 06-21-2002, 08:13 AM   #3
SeiserL
 
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Agreed, I wished we trained more against kicks.

When we do, we often enter and blend with a tenkan to avoid the kick and bridge the ditance gap.

Other times we apply the same principles and waza as if it we an arm. Picure coming up under a kick with Irimi or Shionage.

Until again,

Lynn

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 06-21-2002, 09:08 AM   #4
Greg Jennings
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Hi Lynn,

In my limited experience, high-line kicks can be treated like tsuki or yokomenuci.

Some low-line kicks, however, are another story altogether.

Then there are knees when being grappled....

Best Regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 06-21-2002, 11:59 PM   #5
Brian H
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Kicks very hard to connect on a moving target

1) kicks not very flexible when range changes. If Nage moves, then most of the time the kick won't work as planned. A step back or to the side usually yields a clean miss.

2) kicks not as fast as punches. A head punch cross as little as two feet or so, a head kick can cross up to six or seven. Time equals space.

3) a kicker is off balance. One foot is rooted and one is moving with the torso shifting to control center of balance. Does that sound like it would be hard to further unbalance uke and throw him?

we did some kicking attacks during randori at my dojo once, it was very funny to watch the uke kicking to get knocked down everytime.

now they get you on the ground/cornered -- kicking would really begin to suck.
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Old 06-22-2002, 12:26 PM   #6
Bruce Baker
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Kicking waist high

For many years I have heard the saying, "You only need to kick waist high."

In a way that is true, because most good targets for a kick are below the rib cage, or most well placed strong kicks are done by bending the body without letting the legs getting much above waist level.

If you miss of deal an ineffective kick, you have created an opening for an opponent to enter and take your balance away.

I have been challenged by some pretty quick kickers, and if you catch their initializing movement, a knee or hip or foot starting to move,I can pretty much avoid the power of the kick and blend to get inside where you can take the balance and use the throws I used to use in jujitsu before I started Aikido.

You should already know much of jujitsu is the hand to hand techniques of jujitsu that have been modified with sword techniques into Aikido. Both arts compliment each other.

The point being, is that your awareness, your ability to be outside the power of the kick, and your ability to take the opponents power are the crux of your Aikido training.

If you are having a hard time against kicks, look for the initializing movement, very few people have direct movement if they are fast kickers so they forget to work on this.

The technique of movement without showing intention, or without predisposition is kind of like learning to play poker without emotion, or showing little traits that other players can read. Some of it comes from calming your thoughts so that you are not anxiously showing tendancys to move. Some of it comes from being able to practice with people who watch your movement and help you to overcome your shortcomings. Mirrors are not always the only way to clear up this problem with training, but it does begin to show how your body language can tip off an opponent.

Enough lessons for today.

Yes, there are opportunies for kicking in Aikido, and No, we do not often use them because of the classes skill level, or because of safety concerns.

There is no ablsolute right or wrong answer for this, as it depends on you level of skill.

If you get a group of grapplers going, practice a variety of different techniques and see what works for you, or if you get a free randori period then you might be allowed to pursue this question at a personal experience level.

As for kicking in Aikido, there is room for it, but that is a piece of the martial arts puzzle you must fit for yourself into your own journey, and your own life.
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Old 06-22-2002, 01:56 PM   #7
ChristianBoddum
 
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Re: Kicks very hard to connect on a moving target

Hi !
Just a note,Aikido is swordbased,I would guess
that this means you don't jump around when
when using a live blade,kicking your own blade would mean you'd have to fight on
"split-foot-style" - any comments ?
yours - Chr.B.
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Old 06-22-2002, 06:11 PM   #8
paw
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ttt for Greg

Greg has made some very good points about low line kicks (and knees). If I may highlight these points using Brian's objections...

Quote:
1) kicks not very flexible when range changes. If Nage moves, then most of the time the kick won't work as planned. A step back or to the side usually yields a clean miss.
The same is true of punches. Yet in other threads we have seen many aikidoka advocate the use of punches...

Quote:
2) kicks not as fast as punches. A head punch cross as little as two feet or so, a head kick can cross up to six or seven. Time equals space.
True, but a low line kick (ie classic muay thai kick to the leg) is fast, forceful and extremely effective.

Quote:
3) a kicker is off balance. One foot is rooted and one is moving with the torso shifting to control center of balance. Does that sound like it would be hard to further unbalance uke and throw him?
Try throwing a muay thai fighter who only delivers low line kicks (heck, thai fighters don't even deal with throws, so the aikidoka has the element of surprise). To be more fair, try throwing a san shou fighter (who will be trained in throwing and grappling) and see what happens.

Kicks are not undefeatable techniques, but to dismiss all kicks as impractical is a pretty big mistake, in my opinion.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 06-22-2002, 10:29 PM   #9
SeiserL
 
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I remember a Wing Chun instructor asking me that if you wouldn't punch somebody in the foot why would you kick them in the head? When asked to demonstrate a head kick, he did a low kick taking out the knee and dropping the attacker to the mat so that the head kick was another low kick. We all laughed.

But don't under estimate the ability of some people to kick high and fast without telegraphing or losing balance.

Until again,

Lynn

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 06-22-2002, 11:25 PM   #10
Abasan
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Quote:
heck, thai fighters don't even deal with throws, so the aikidoka has the element of surprise)
Ermm...they do have throws... most of it would be leg reaps, but sometimes, its something like a kaitenage variation, or choke hold takedown.

Quote:
3) a kicker is off balance. One foot is rooted and one is moving with the torso shifting to control center of balance. Does that sound like it would be hard to further unbalance uke and throw him?
Of course, this post was a generalisation. Still, I'm reminded of the way ki society aikidoist trains. One was when you offered a hand to uke, whilst standing one one foot. Uke then pushes the hand to off balance nage. Accomplished nages, would not lose their balance. Neither would accomplish kickers easily lose their balance even though they are on one leg.

What you saw that was so funny was aikidoists who played at kicking being thrown around. They may also be good kickers having come from other martial arts like savate, karate or tae kwon do, etc.. but I doubt very much that they really tried their damnest to kick nage. Kick throws are very hard to take ukemi from, so kicking really hard will be quite dangerous for both nage and uke.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 06-23-2002, 08:23 AM   #11
Paula Lydon
Dojo: Aikido Shugenkai
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I have a strong background in kicking, and after 5 years in Aikido still practice on my own and with like minded friends. I like the leg strengthening, balance, control and freedom to feel a naturally occuring kick or sweap develope while training. I don't do this in my Aikido dojo, however, as it bothers others and that's not what I'm there for. I have found over the years that:
1) Basic movement will get you off-line from most kicks--except! If you never train in kicking then you don't understand the dynamics or execution line.
2) If you can't get well out of the way of a high kick you can treat it like a powerful hand/arm strike using yeilding conection, redirection, neutrilization and following with any applicable technique.
3) For low kicks, I've trained in moving my own targeted leg away while keeping alignment and also using my legs like my arms to connect and redirect the kicking leg. All the same basic principles.
4) Like anything in life...now matter how good you are and what you do, sometimes you just get nailed... So it goes, take care all

~~Paula~~
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Old 06-23-2002, 09:36 AM   #12
L. Camejo
 
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Hi all,

Nice thread.

Check out this application for a high roundhouse.

Before -http://www.ttac.0catch.com/Images/rhkick.jpg
and
After -http://www.ttac.0catch.com/Images/ushiroate.jpg

Also, we should remember that even though a person may kick, their hands, arms, head and body are still available for use in balance breaking and applying technique as long as correct avoidance and entry is achieved.

We don't always have to focus on the attacking limb to apply techniques.

My 2 cents.
L.C.

Last edited by L. Camejo : 06-23-2002 at 09:44 AM.

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Old 06-23-2002, 04:55 PM   #13
ChristianBoddum
 
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Re: Kick Defenses...

Hi !
I just remembered a funny situation a few years ago.
I was assisting a class for children at a school,and after class a kid asked me if we
did kicks like some style he knew.
I said no because a good irimi acts like a kick and is in position of where a good kick
would be ,and so i showed irimi and from irimi
I showed 5 kicks from low to high right in front of him ,didn't touch him but it was
perfectly close,he got the point.
Afterwards I was really amased,because I had never done kicking before and still to this day I am a lousy kicker,but this was the perfect subconsious technique.
I think our posture with the most weight at the front foot to do irimi ,makes kicking with the front leg not possible but I've learned a very good kick to the groin in which
I still have good balance.
yours - Chr.B.
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Old 06-23-2002, 06:44 PM   #14
PeterR
 
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Hmmm Larry - have we been reading Nariyama's book?

To critique - uke's ma ai for delivering the kick was way off and Tori (was that you?) hands are all over the place when finishing.

Of course the first and last picis say nothing of how cool it probably looked to anyone watching.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-23-2002, 07:54 PM   #15
L. Camejo
 
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Cool

Quote:
Originally posted by PeterR
Hmmm Larry - have we been reading Nariyama's book?

To critique - uke's ma ai for delivering the kick was way off and Tori (was that you?) hands are all over the place when finishing.

Of course the first and last picis say nothing of how cool it probably looked to anyone watching.
Everyone's a critic

Those pics were for a surprise demo that we had to do on the spot for an open house at the University at which we train.

Actually, the first picture shows the point where I avoided backward (a little bit too much ) to avoid the kick and then the Ushiro ate at the end.

My main focus was not to hurt anyone, since this was the first time this class (all beginners, not extremely confident with ukemi) ever had an audience of that sort. So my execution was not as clean as it usually is.

Not to mention the fact that the kick would have put him so off balance the uke (a blue belt in TKD I think) would have probably landed somewhere off the mat.

But the neccessary effect was gained, a lot of ppl never saw Aikido B4, not to mention applications against kicks, so most were pretty impressed.

Have not had the chance to get Nariyama's book yet, but delving deep into Judo and Aikido by Tomiki and the books on Tomiki Aikido by Dr. Lee Ah Loi.

Sorry to stray a bit from the topic guys. Thanks for the critique Peter.

L.C.

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Old 06-23-2002, 08:01 PM   #16
PeterR
 
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Hi Larry;

In the Shishida/Nariyama book there is an ushiro-ate response to a roundhouse kick described. If you haven't already gotten the book - do it now.

When I gave demos at colleges I often use shomen-ate against front kick - usually against my biggest student. Spectacular.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-23-2002, 08:32 PM   #17
L. Camejo
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by PeterR
Hi Larry;

In the Shishida/Nariyama book there is an ushiro-ate response to a roundhouse kick described. If you haven't already gotten the book - do it now.

When I gave demos at colleges I often use shomen-ate against front kick - usually against my biggest student. Spectacular.
Hi Peter,

Yeah, shomen ate is a great quick response technique to any kick where you can enter on the inside I think.

Actually, I like to use a slightly modified iriminage for a roundhouse as well. At the point of entry (for aigamae ate) after blending with the roundhouse kick, I slip in behind them and turn my hip in the opposite direction, launching the kicker over my hip, kinda koshi nage style.

Even found a way to apply yonko on the kicker's foreleg when doing a front kick, really fun They just hit the deck in a similar fashion to aigamae katate dori kote mawashi (nikkyo).

Happy training.

L.C.

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