Tim Cartmell on training, BJJ and traditional CMAs

Demonstrations by and interview with Tim Cartmell, a thoughtful, open-minded and highly-skilled martial artist and teacher with a background in traditional Chinese martial arts and Brazilian jiu-jitsu who looks to all sources for insight and inspiration (including, in the past, Don Angier of Yanagi Ryu)

http://www.budovideos.com/online/sho...-tim-cartmell/

Thanks to Graham Barlow for the link.

Nice post. I've had the pleasure of training with Tim Cartmell a few times when he has taught self-defense, BJJ and some CMA in a BJJ context. I'd love to see him in a CMA context as well, but haven't had the chance yet. In my experience, he is just as he appears on the video: soft spoken, articulate and well focused, a physically talented athlete, a well rounded, broadly accomplished and practical martial artist, and a fine teacher consistently delivering crystal clear instruction.

IMO Tim is definitely someone worth learning from if the opportunity presents itself!

Also, if someone were interested in BJJ or MMA yet were a bit hesitant to "jump in" being perhaps wary of a perceived heightened potential for injury due to younger or more aggressive training partners, my experience with Tim is that he runs a calm, controlled, high caliber class with a well thought out balance between sport specific conditioning and precise and highly effective technique (appropriate to the given context whether it is sports application or self defense oriented.) I'm sure he is capable of training folks up to "high octane" interaction, but that, it appears to me, is done incrementally and logically . . . such that when one is in a "high octane" interaction one is still applying high quality technique, which is what makes Tim Cartmell a good teacher to my mind.

You describe Tim's approach pretty well, Allen. Glad you've had the chance to train with him. By the way, Tim is scheduled to come to the School of Budo there in Portland in a couple of weeks on September 23 and 24. Contact Michael Selin for more details:

Michael Selin
7506 N Chicago Avenue
Portland, Oregon, 97203
Tel - 503-705-5275
e-mail - michael@ecoledebudo.com
www.SchoolofBudo.com

I like Tim's openness and his appreciation of being a student. Although it seems to me that it seems like he didn't get the real juice of CMA when he was in China--does anyone have this feeling as well? Like the "angles" and stuff? It sounds like stuff that's not core, at least from the sounds of it.

I'm sure he has some bodyskill but I'm willing to bet though that the bul of those skills were learned in BJJ.

It's also funny that the hosts were like "yeah, relaxed power, I don't know if that can be taught/that stuff is extremely hard to teach", lol.

Lorel Latorilla wrote: . . . . it seems to me that it seems like he didn't get the real juice of CMA when he was in China--does anyone have this feeling as well? Like the "angles" and stuff? It sounds like stuff that's not core, at least from the sounds of it. I'm sure he has some bodyskill but I'm willing to bet though that the bul of those skills were learned in BJJ. It's also funny that the hosts were like "yeah, relaxed power, I don't know if that can be taught/that stuff is extremely hard to teach", lol.

Lorel, the questions and comments below are just for clarification, not to argue over what Tim may or may not have as a teacher that people are looking for. Take all of it with several railcars of salt. I've had the opportunity and the pleasure of working with Tim on a few occasions, mostly on CIMA issues which are my main interest, but I can't and won't claim to be a student of Tim's.

What is "the real juice of CMA"? Do you think that your background in Aunkai and Systema have shown you "the real juice of CMA"? What specifically would you describe as "stuff that's core"?

Angles and leverage are basic jujutsu, and that is what Tim addresses for less-experienced BJJ students and for the stand-up audience his "Groundproofing" material is aimed at. Tim has more than "some" bodyskill--but again, what specific attributes are you referring to with the general term "bodyskill"?

The shenfa, skills and insight that Tim can show come from both BJJ and CIMAs . . . with his considerable experience and training intensity it can be difficult for him to separate out what comes from where. It's also important to note that, as with BJJ and Cleber Luciano, Tim had more CIMA teachers than just Luo Dexiu.

Internal winding, compression/expansion, kai/he, fajin, neutralization . . . I think that hands-on with Tim would show you that he's got attributes and skills encompassed within the general terms "internal strength" and "internal connection." And his teaching explanations will, when necessary or when asked, go into much more than just angles and leverage.

As far as "relaxed strength" being easy to teach . . . well, it's not easy to teach, or we'd see a lot more of it out there.

Just some thoughts.

Thomas Campbell wrote: Lorel, the questions and comments below are just for clarification, not to argue over what Tim may or may not have as a teacher that people are looking for. Take all of it with several railcars of salt. I've had the opportunity and the pleasure of working with Tim on a few occasions, mostly on CIMA issues which are my main interest, but I can't and won't claim to be a student of Tim's. What is "the real juice of CMA"? Do you think that your background in Aunkai and Systema have shown you "the real juice of CMA"? What specifically would you describe as "stuff that's core"? Angles and leverage are basic jujutsu, and that is what Tim addresses for less-experienced BJJ students and for the stand-up audience his "Groundproofing" material is aimed at. Tim has more than "some" bodyskill--but again, what specific attributes are you referring to with the general term "bodyskill"? The shenfa, skills and insight that Tim can show come from both BJJ and CIMAs . . . with his considerable experience and training intensity it can be difficult for him to separate out what comes from where. It's also important to note that, as with BJJ and Cleber Luciano, Tim had more CIMA teachers than just Luo Dexiu. Internal winding, compression/expansion, kai/he, fajin, neutralization . . . I think that hands-on with Tim would show you that he's got attributes and skills encompassed within the general terms "internal strength" and "internal connection." And his teaching explanations will, when necessary or when asked, go into much more than just angles and leverage. As far as "relaxed strength" being easy to teach . . . well, it's not easy to teach, or we'd see a lot more of it out there. Just some thoughts.

Hi Tom,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I just found Tim's comments about CMA unsatisfactory. I mean, for a guy that studied CMAs for so long that all he had from it was "dead angles" and "leverage"? I mean, is he deliberately hiding something here? I feel that the core--the real juice as it were--of these arts is a body method to produce a relaxed power that these hosts ironically say "cannot be taught but learned through experience".

That relaxed power is an absolute game changer, in my opinion. If people don't think so, all they have to do is look at videos of Mifune. And yet Tim either forgets to mention it, refuses to mention it, does not know about it or may he does not know about the greater significance of it in the realm of fighting (which is a skillset that is much different from bodyskill, btw) and only has to mention the jujutsu aspects of CMA.

And yes, having experience in Aunkai and Systema, I got a peek of what the "real juice" is, which is not to say I have it (but hey I'm working on it). If I was Tim, I would talk about how CMA gave me a more efficient body that caused me to be unthrowable, to have the slick ability to unbalance my opponent without overt tactics like you see in jujutsu, that caused me to strike without telegrapphing and no wind up but with much more power, and to be able to physicall sense the opponent's intent to move. To me, these are absolute game changers and much more valuable than learning "leverages" and "dead angles" (although I can appreciate learning about these things--ONLY after I have established my foundation).

I have no doubt Tim has bodyskill, but whether he knows how to break it down like some of the big names you see here on Aikiweb?...I'm going to have to be skeptical about that. Tim seems like a straight talking, honest dude and I doubt that he would deliberately "hide" knowledge like the Asians do. Hence my statement that I feel he didn't get the juice of CMAs.

The thing about Tim is that he actually tries to simplify what he is talking about, instead of making it sound more complicated. It's easy to say fantastic things, and confuse your students, it's another to take something seemingly complicated and make it understandable and useable.

As far as "getting it" goes, Tim spent 12 years in Taiwan, with regular visits to mainland China. Studied with all of the big names, even becoming a lineage holder (something not given to some one who didn't "get it", also not something he brags about). He reads and writes in Chinese better than most Chinese College students (he majored in Classical Chinese). He still spends hours working on his martial arts, both theory and application non-stop. His demonstrations of internal power are magnificent. If he doesn't have it, no one does.

The only difference between Tim, and many of the other "big names" is that he talks about internal simply. If you train with him, you will have noticeable results in a amount of time. You will also come to accept that those results are achievable by anyone if given the proper instruction.

In spite of what I wrote, I would love to touch hands with Tim some day. Of course he'd choke the hell out of me, but yeah. One of these days.

I have to agree with Lorel - I got the same vibe from the video. That, combined with the way some of his students on this forum have defined aiki, make me wonder about his view on IS.

That said, he is probably first or second on my list of people I'd like to study BJJ with so I don't mean those comments to take anything away from him as a person or martial artist. It is apparent he is phenomenally gifted.

Thanks Thomas,

I enjoyed the video you linked. A lot.

Rabih Shanshiry wrote: I have to agree with Lorel - I got the same vibe from the video. That, combined with the way some of his students on this forum have defined aiki, make me wonder about his view on IS.

Tim is not really asked directly on the video about internal strength or aiki in the sort of context it is discussed on this forum. Budo Jake doesn't really have the background to have asked the sorts of questions that might have elicited more from Tim, and IS was not the focus of the interview nor a main interest of the intended audience.

I have talked with and corresponded with Tim about IS and internal connection, and he understands and can knowledgeably discuss IS topics in as much depth as you would care to go into, including the CIMA context. He does not necessarily agree with all aspects of the various traditional paradigms that are used to frame IS discussion, but understands them and can relate them to contemporary concepts and training methods. Tim's excellent analytical eye for combat movement and technique (in my own limited direct experience, rivalled only by one other person, an occasional participant on this forum) informs his discussion of internal issues.

Tom,

Thanks for the 411 on Tim Cartmell. I trust your assessment.