Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-26-2011, 09:31 AM   #1
genin
Location: southwest
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 103
United_States
Offline
aikijutsu vs. aikido

I know the difference between the two is that one is an art, while the other is a sport. One is based purely on technique, and the other is rooted in philosophy. Both mirror each other in many ways, but their are distinct differences.

I use aikido techniques as part of my taijutsu training. It's clean and easy to learn, but I do recognize the limitations of these techniques in a realistic "street fight" situation. That is where aikijutsu comes into play. It is the practical application of these techniques in a real-life combat situation.

I had a friend who reached blackbelt in aikijutsu. His dojo was really hardcore and they trained full contact. He had multiple bones broken during his training over the years. He was attracted to aikijutsu because of the realism and practicality, but I think he eventually realized that the fight scenario he was training for, was never going to happen. And he was letting himself get beaten repeatedly for no real reason (and paying monthly to do so!)

I think this is a limitation with a lot of martial arts. You can train and spar in unrealistic dojo fights, or you can train for real and risk injury and pain. Either way, you may be training for a conflict which may never materialize. If there is a spiritual/lifestyle teaching to it, then it can serve more of a purpose beyond the violence. I don't know if my friend ever wanted to learn anything more than just a really good way to kick somebody's butt. Maybe that's the difference.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2011, 10:36 AM   #2
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 888
United_States
Offline
Re: aikijutsu vs. aikido

Hi Roger,

I have some questions and comments:

- What is this "aikijutsu" you speak of? Is this the one that is a sport? Most aikido practitioners do not regard aikido as a sport.

- Do you train a particular system of martial arts? What taijutsu do you practice?

- Repeated broken bones are a sign that bad training methods are taking place. Doesn't matter how "hard" or "lethal" or "streetworthy" a system claims to be. Who wants to be a badass street ninja with a permanent limp, who is blind in one eye? It sounds as though your friend saw the truth in that though - at some point you have to ask yourself "is being truly deadly worth paralysis?"

- Aikido is not exactly rooted in philosophy. It is rooted in an old, Japanese style of martial training. This type of training is not designed to supply the practitioner with winning technique. Rather, it is supposed to shape a person's behavior so that they respond to conflict with a certain type of character and strength. The techniques are tools to instill principles; the theory is that a well-trained practitioner will be able to freely apply the principles if attacked, and will not be restricted by technique.

- The founder of Aikido took the art in a more philosophical direction later in his life. There are styles of Aikido that this movement had no effect on, just as there are styles and teachers that feel the later-era philosophy is the core teaching itself. If you or your friend have the opportunity to check out a couple of different Aikido dojos there is a chance you might find something you like. It is possible you could find a dojo that has a level of intensity and hardness to their training that suits you, but can also help you study principles to the level where you can develop your own "aikijutsu" that can help you meet whatever real conflicts you face in your life, whether they are physical or emotional or what have you.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2011, 12:43 PM   #3
genin
Location: southwest
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 103
United_States
Offline
Re: aikijutsu vs. aikido

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Hi Roger,

I have some questions and comments:

- What is this "aikijutsu" you speak of? Is this the one that is a sport? Most aikido practitioners do not regard aikido as a sport.

- Do you train a particular system of martial arts? What taijutsu do you practice?
The aikijutsu my friend did was not a sport. It was strictly for realistic combat training. I've seen some aikido tournaments with guys putting locks and throws on each other for points. That is the "sport" aspect I am referring to. I realize that aikido isn't JUST a sport, though.

I train in ninjitsu, and I incorporate multiple martial arts into the taijutsu (unarmed combat) portion of that training, one of which is aikido.

When you encourage realism in training then you have to accept accidents and injuries. If you train safe, you are not training to simulate real combat situations. I can understand the reasoning there, but I don't think it is necessary for people in modern times to train on a weekly basis to thwart up to four attackers in a full contact situation. Great workout, and great training, but not necessary. That's why my friend got his blakbelt and then quit. He reached his goal but realized that there is not much left for him after that. There has to be some perceived value in it, otherwise it won't be worth your while. For me, there is a great deal of value in what I get out of martial arts, even aside from the ability to kick someone's butt.

Last edited by genin : 07-26-2011 at 12:53 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2011, 01:36 PM   #4
Basia Halliop
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 711
Canada
Offline
Re: aikijutsu vs. aikido

Quote:
I've seen some aikido tournaments with guys putting locks and throws on each other for points.
Tomiki, maybe? There are one or two styles of aikido that do have tournaments and competitions, but it's actually rather unusual. The majority of aikido styles and organizations have a very specific and strong 'anti-sport' philosophy, and never hold tournaments of any kind.

I don't know about aikijujustu (which is a pretty wide word that covers a lot of different things) but I was certainly under the impression that there were styles that had tournaments.

I would also question the dichotomy you've brought up of technique vs philosophy, or of violence vs philosophy. This does not square with various dojos I've encountered. You can have one dojo that is both very practical (or 'combat-oriented' if you prefer) and very explicitly 'philosophical', ones that are neither, ones that are emphasize one over the other...

A lot of injuries doesn't necessarily imply that what you're doing is realistic or practical, either -- it may sometimes be the case, but it's also very easy to injure someone _because_ they are not protecting themselves enough or are doing something 'unrealistic' (e.g. letting you put them in a vulnerable position while ignoring opportunities to stop you or escape).

I think many of the comparisons you're making seem to be very specific to one or two dojos or styles you're familiar with, rather than things that describe aikido or aikijujutsu as a whole.

Last edited by Basia Halliop : 07-26-2011 at 01:41 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2011, 01:38 PM   #5
grondahl
Dojo: Stockholms Aikidoklubb
Location: Stockholm
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 550
Sweden
Offline
Re: aikijutsu vs. aikido

Legitimate styles of aikijutsu with competitions?
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2011, 01:58 PM   #6
genin
Location: southwest
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 103
United_States
Offline
Re: aikijutsu vs. aikido

My friend mainly drew the comparison between aikijutsu and other sport based martial arts like Tae Kwon Do, karate, judo, and others. It wasn't just a comparison to Aikido.

I admit that I too struggled to find the practicality of someone holding their arm out in front of you, letting you grab them, and then intentionally allowing themselves to be flipped into a vulnerable position. I didn't "get it" until I started doing it myself. I now realize these techniques can be incorporated into real combat moves once they have been practiced and perfected in the traditional manner.

I also personally feel that a strictly aikijutsu based defense system has flaws. There is not as much emphasis placed on striking. That's why I cross train in Krav Maga too. But the Krav Maga school is completely devoid of all easter philosophy. It's pure self-defense, nothing spiritual or metaphysical about it. From what I'm hearing, Aikido is a mix between the two, in it's traditional form.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2011, 02:05 PM   #7
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 888
United_States
Offline
Re: aikijutsu vs. aikido

Quote:
Roger Flatley wrote: View Post
The aikijutsu my friend did was not a sport. It was strictly for realistic combat training. I've seen some aikido tournaments with guys putting locks and throws on each other for points. That is the "sport" aspect I am referring to. I realize that aikido isn't JUST a sport, though.
FYI that's one particular style of Aikido, which is often referred to as "Tomiki" Aikido after the guy who founded it. Most styles of Aikido emphatically do not engage in competitive sparring.

Quote:
Roger Flatley wrote: View Post
I train in ninjitsu, and I incorporate multiple martial arts into the taijutsu (unarmed combat) portion of that training, one of which is aikido.
Bujinkan?

Quote:
Roger Flatley wrote: View Post
When you encourage realism in training then you have to accept accidents and injuries. If you train safe, you are not training to simulate real combat situations. I can understand the reasoning there, but I don't think it is necessary for people in modern times to train on a weekly basis to thwart up to four attackers in a full contact situation. Great workout, and great training, but not necessary. That's why my friend got his blakbelt and then quit. He reached his goal but realized that there is not much left for him after that. There has to be some perceived value in it, otherwise it won't be worth your while. For me, there is a great deal of value in what I get out of martial arts, even aside from the ability to kick someone's butt.
The promise of martial arts like Aikido and the other arts that Aikido people get mixed up in is that, by using a training methodology that does NOT simulate real combat situations, over a longer period of time you acquire skills which are not only applicable to a wider range of situations than a "real combat situation," they are actually superior in the real situations.

That's the promise anyway. If I ever get mugged or attacked by pirates I will let you know what happened. In the meantime, the training is much more compelling over the long haul as I've got an infinite number of things to work on, I am continually improving, though very very gradually, and I've not had any broken bones or serious injuries, just my knees and wrists seem to be wearing out.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2011, 02:43 PM   #8
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,914
Offline
Re: aikijutsu vs. aikido

"Real combat"? Join the armed forces. As far as I know that is the only way to train for it.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2011, 03:08 PM   #9
genin
Location: southwest
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 103
United_States
Offline
Re: aikijutsu vs. aikido

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
"Real combat"? Join the armed forces. As far as I know that is the only way to train for it.
Close. You could do Krav Maga, which I am also studying, and that is based on fighting techniques used in the military.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2011, 01:25 AM   #10
Krystal Locke
Location: Phoenix, Oregon
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 385
United_States
Offline
Re: aikijutsu vs. aikido

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
"Real combat"? Join the armed forces. As far as I know that is the only way to train for it.
Or, just get in bar fights. More work for me, thanks,
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2011, 08:35 AM   #11
Amir Krause
Dojo: Shirokan Dojo / Tel Aviv Israel
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 643
Israel
Offline
Re: aikijutsu vs. aikido

Quote:
Roger Flatley wrote: View Post
Close. You could do Krav Maga, which I am also studying, and that is based on fighting techniques used in the military.
Noyt really

The main technique used for a militaries to fight, is communications and coordination of large forces (and fire assets).

Hand to hand is not even a secondary issue in every Army, including the Israeli one.

While special units and most soldiers here do learn H2H fighting under the title "Krav Maga" , no one ever said they are really good at it (they have other skills which are much more important - comm, shooting, demolition, observation & inteligence).

Get out of Holliwood, armies are huge complex organizations, with many thousands of machines. H2H is the least of worries.

Amir
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2011, 09:17 AM   #12
Richard Stevens
Location: Indianapolis
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 165
United_States
Offline
Re: aikijutsu vs. aikido

*sigh*
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2011, 09:36 AM   #13
genin
Location: southwest
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 103
United_States
Offline
Re: aikijutsu vs. aikido

To clarify, when I say "combat" I mean hand to hand fighting. I don't mean military combat in the traditional sense.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2011, 07:50 PM   #14
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: aikijutsu vs. aikido

I'm in the military, I am a combaitives instructor for the Army, Aikido black belt, and BJJ brown belt, have taught CQB......

Disagree that you must "accept" injuries as a part of "realistic training. I have been injured yes, and injuries do happen, however they can also be mitigated and risk assessments and safety is paramount in everything we do in training.

In a dojo and in hand to hand training the injuries you discuss above should be the exception and not the norm. While bumps and bruises do occur, I have never had a student seriously injured or broken a bone in training. It is a mark of a poor school and of poor instruction if students get carted out of the dojo on a regular basis with injuries...not a badg of honor or a sign of a good school and realistic combat training.

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2011, 08:01 PM   #15
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: aikijutsu vs. aikido

Quote:
Roger Flatley wrote: View Post
To clarify, when I say "combat" I mean hand to hand fighting. I don't mean military combat in the traditional sense.
Are there two of you? I'm confused. One Aikido, Krav magna, ninjutsu exponent who learns so much from martial arts and another who gets picked on by girls. mmmmm?
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2011, 07:05 AM   #16
genin
Location: southwest
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 103
United_States
Offline
Re: aikijutsu vs. aikido

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Are there two of you? I'm confused. One Aikido, Krav magna, ninjutsu exponent who learns so much from martial arts and another who gets picked on by girls. mmmmm?
I wouldn't quite say I get picked on by girls, lol.

My friend's dojo taught realism in fighting, so they'd throw real punches and if you didn't duck, you got hit. It's a good way to teach you awareness and give you confidence in a real street fight. Yes, I always felt it was a bit excessive, but who am I to judge that Sensei and his dojo.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2011, 08:19 AM   #17
Tim Ruijs
 
Tim Ruijs's Avatar
Dojo: Makato/Netherlands
Location: Netherlands - Leusden
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 395
Netherlands
Offline
Re: aikijutsu vs. aikido

To my knowledge this is exactly why Ueshiba developed Aikido. The original form, aikijitsu/aikijutsu, was about combat, hard and exterior form. The need for this slowly faded with time and to prevent the art from getting lost Ueshiba searched a way to preserve the 'content' by a different more interior way of practise. Which finally resulted in Aikido.
When you want to learn to fight and do Aikido, something is wrong. When you practise aikijitsu and do not like getting hit/hurt, something is wrong. When you mix both equally...when you study the older to understand newer...

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2011, 08:33 AM   #18
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 888
United_States
Offline
Re: aikijutsu vs. aikido

Quote:
Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
To my knowledge this is exactly why Ueshiba developed Aikido. The original form, aikijitsu/aikijutsu, was about combat, hard and exterior form. The need for this slowly faded with time and to prevent the art from getting lost Ueshiba searched a way to preserve the 'content' by a different more interior way of practise. Which finally resulted in Aikido..
Are you piss-taking the ninja guy here?
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2011, 08:42 AM   #19
genin
Location: southwest
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 103
United_States
Offline
Re: aikijutsu vs. aikido

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Are you piss-taking the ninja guy here?
What? Wanna try that again?
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2011, 09:03 AM   #20
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 888
United_States
Offline
Re: aikijutsu vs. aikido

Quote:
Roger Flatley wrote: View Post
What? Wanna try that again?
That stuff Tim posted is surprisingly wrong.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2011, 09:36 AM   #21
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,743
United_States
Offline
Re: aikijutsu vs. aikido

Quote:
Roger Flatley wrote: View Post
My friend's dojo taught realism in fighting, so they'd throw real punches and if you didn't duck, you got hit. It's a good way to teach you awareness and give you confidence in a real street fight. Yes, I always felt it was a bit excessive, but who am I to judge that Sensei and his dojo.
and these folks have lots of experience in real street fight? just curious about people, that's all. whenever folks mentioned realism, street fight, and martial arts, all in the same sentence or two, my bullshit alarm went off. that's just me, other folks might not react.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2011, 10:00 AM   #22
genin
Location: southwest
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 103
United_States
Offline
Re: aikijutsu vs. aikido

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
and these folks have lots of experience in real street fight? just curious about people, that's all. whenever folks mentioned realism, street fight, and martial arts, all in the same sentence or two, my bullshit alarm went off. that's just me, other folks might not react.
Their Sensei was a cop for years and one of their instructors was a bouncer for a long time. They did have some street cred when it came to real life violent situations. Doesn't mean these guys were seasoned UFC fighters or anything, but at least they have probably seen some real action before.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2011, 10:19 AM   #23
JO
Dojo: Aikikai de l'Université Laval
Location: Sainte-Catherine-de-la-J.-C., Québec
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 292
Canada
Offline
Re: aikijutsu vs. aikido

Quote:
Roger Flatley wrote: View Post
Their Sensei was a cop for years and one of their instructors was a bouncer for a long time. They did have some street cred when it came to real life violent situations. Doesn't mean these guys were seasoned UFC fighters or anything, but at least they have probably seen some real action before.
Funny, I would think a cop or an experienced bouncer would have a much better understanding of real violence than a UFC pro.What they don't have is the same physical conditioning (professional athletes are generally in a league of their own over even very fit amateurs).

The only gut I have trained and talked with that really combined the knowledge of real violence with serious hand to hand training was a guy that trained with us briefly who is a combat veteran and an instructor of hand to hand fighting in the Canadian military. He was very respectful of our different focus in training and he caught on faster than any other complete beginner in aikido that I have known (including karate, taekwondo and judo guys).

Jonathan Olson
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2011, 10:21 AM   #24
Walter Martindale
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
Location: Cambridge, ON
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 655
Canada
Offline
Re: aikijutsu vs. aikido

Quote:
Roger Flatley wrote: View Post
Their Sensei was a cop for years and one of their instructors was a bouncer for a long time. They did have some street cred when it came to real life violent situations. Doesn't mean these guys were seasoned UFC fighters or anything, but at least they have probably seen some real action before.
Seasoned UFC fighters are certainly fit and very tough with a good number of competencies, but they also have a referee and a rule set. Kick someone in the gonads in a UFC competition - he's given time to recover, and you get penalised. Get kicked there in 'the street' and if you curl up in a little ball, nobody stops you from getting further thrashed, having your pockets emptied, your car stolen, and your house burglarized while you're in the ambulance.

A former national team judoka was working as a bouncer (I won't name him or the city) - tossed a rowdy out of a bar and (who knows why) put on a choke hold to keep the guy down. The rowdy's friend pushed a knife in the back and out the front of the ex judoka. He lived, but only just.

"combat" can end up with someone dead. There's not a heck of a lot of things that will get me into "combat." Yes, the dojo is a (relatively) safe place, and that's where I'd rather keep whatever clumsy skills I have.
Cheers,
W
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2011, 11:54 AM   #25
genin
Location: southwest
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 103
United_States
Offline
Re: aikijutsu vs. aikido

It's a choice. Some want to train more realistically, and others prefer other techniques. Each has it's own merits. I think that those with more knowledge and experience realize that combat is actually much more simplistic than most realize. I knew the people on this site knew there stuff when I read a guy saying how he'd prefer to use a heavy sharp object in a fight, rather than apply some slick wrist lock move.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Martial Ineffectiveness dps General 148 08-20-2012 09:15 AM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 6 Peter Goldsbury Columns 35 03-13-2009 06:16 PM
The continued Evolution of Aikido salim General 716 12-27-2008 10:00 PM
Aikido in Amsterdam, Terry Lax style... tiyler_durden General 11 11-03-2008 08:31 AM
Women and Everybody Else in Aikido George S. Ledyard Teaching 113 03-16-2008 07:27 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:20 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate