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Old 10-06-2009, 05:59 PM   #1
Cannea
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Why do people think Aikido does not work?

Today a good friend of mine who has been training Muay Thai for about a year called me and flat out told me that Aikido according to his oppinion and that of others in his gym is not practical and that he was afraid that I was wasting my precious time.

As a new student of Yoshinkan Aikido (as of yesterday I have been to a grand total of 3 classes I have been bombarded by the same opinion in every forum and youtube video I have ever saw on Aikido. This has weighted on my mind even before I signed up, but I chose to sign up anyway because I sensed something special about Aikido. Something that I still can not verbalize.

After watching many Aikido videos and observing my Sensei I don't share my friends opinion. But I can't say why.

Why do people think Aikido does not work?
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Old 10-06-2009, 06:37 PM   #2
Cannea
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

Actually forget that I posted this Thread, if I knew how, I would delete it. This is something I believe that I will have to find for myself.

Cheers
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Old 10-06-2009, 08:03 PM   #3
dps
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Sebastian Barant wrote: View Post
This is something I believe that I will have to find for myself.
That is your answer, everyone makes Aikido out to be what they want it to be. If you want it to be effective you will find a way to make it so.

David
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Old 10-06-2009, 08:44 PM   #4
Shadowfax
 
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

An interesting question. Perhaps because for their purpose it does not work. They don't want the same things from their MA that an aikidoka is looking for from theirs.

Take this with a grain of salt this is simply my own observation based on my limited experience.

Lots of people take up a martial art because they want to be able to hurt someone and or win a fight. Their minds are on preparing for a fight and they are looking for the brawny way out of it. They want to look cool, be perceived as powerful and strong physically, be feared for the damage they can do to someone who might attack them.

Now I understand that in MA of any type, many practitioners ,when they reach a certain level no longer tend to have those desires. But I suspect that the majority of those ,ridiculing Aikido as ineffective, have not reached that level.

Aikido looks weak because in most cases effective aikido prevents the physical fight from ever happening. And should that conflict become physical it still looks for the least damaging way to resolve the conflict. It seems contrary to what most people expect from a martial art. But because of those very facts Aikido is quite powerful. IMHO.

Of course if gentleness fails Aikido has a few surprises in store for those who might have doubts. Let it remain our little secret.
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Old 10-06-2009, 08:51 PM   #5
odudog
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

I would tell your friends that an entire planet can't be wrong. If it were so, then this art would not have spread to the four corners of the world. Besides, history tells us that the original students of O'Sensei were accomplished martial artists in other arts yet they to decided to study. I don't think they who had real world fighting knowledge and experience would have wasted their time learning this art from him.
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Old 10-06-2009, 10:07 PM   #6
Tinyboy344
 
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

Why do people think Aikido does not work???
Because it doesn't! ;-p

Who cares what people think or say.
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Old 10-06-2009, 11:13 PM   #7
observer
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
Lots of people take up a martial art because they want to be able to hurt someone and or win a fight.
I think, such motivation is rare. Mostly, lack of self-confidence and fear of violence. It applies to followers of combat sports and Martial Art.

Aikido looks weak? It is exactly the opposite. Aikido looks at films and shows very impressive. Also the media present it as a modern art of self-defense.

Quote:
Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
"... effective aikido prevents the physical fight from ever happening. And should that conflict become physical it still looks for the least damaging way to resolve the conflict.
This is wishful thinking. It has nothing to do with the real situation.

However, responding to the original question: "Why do people think Aikido does not work?" - because it is not the answer to the expectations. The whole propaganda is just commercialism. Aikido is budo, the art of killing.
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Old 10-07-2009, 12:31 AM   #8
jss
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Sebastian Barant wrote: View Post
Why do people think Aikido does not work?
Here are a few reasons. (I don't completely agree with all of them, btw, and some of them overlap a bit.)
- No sparring or 'alive' training.
- Limited technical curriculum (no body-to-body grappling, no punching/kicking).
- No aiki.
- Aikido has not proven itself in MMA fights.
- Developed from a very limited paradigm (koryu jujutsu / yawara) and never transcended that.
- Assumes the presence of weapons, but rarely trains with weapons present.
- Aikido makes unrealistic claims about doing a minimal amount of damage to the attacker.
- Most Aikido practitioners don't look mean enough.
- Lack of physical conditioning (strength/endurance/speed).
- Knowingly practicing many unrealistic (too elaborate) techniques to explore principles and ideas.
- Training techniques on poorly executed attacks during training.
- Aikido doesn't look violent enough.
- Training atmosphere is too relaxed, loose, fun.
- Lack of martial intent during practice.
- Practitioners with unrealistic ideas about fighting and self-defense.

Last edited by jss : 10-07-2009 at 12:34 AM.
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Old 10-07-2009, 02:12 AM   #9
Edward
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

In my opinion, Aikido has limited effectiveness in fighting as proven in MMA events, but is a very effective way of self-defence, if you see what I mean.
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Old 10-07-2009, 02:39 AM   #10
Maarten De Queecker
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
Here are a few reasons. (I don't completely agree with all of them, btw, and some of them overlap a bit.)
- No sparring or 'alive' training.
- Limited technical curriculum (no body-to-body grappling, no punching/kicking).
- No aiki.
- Aikido has not proven itself in MMA fights.
- Developed from a very limited paradigm (koryu jujutsu / yawara) and never transcended that.
- Assumes the presence of weapons, but rarely trains with weapons present.
- Aikido makes unrealistic claims about doing a minimal amount of damage to the attacker.
- Most Aikido practitioners don't look mean enough.
- Lack of physical conditioning (strength/endurance/speed).
- Knowingly practicing many unrealistic (too elaborate) techniques to explore principles and ideas.
- Training techniques on poorly executed attacks during training.
- Aikido doesn't look violent enough.
- Training atmosphere is too relaxed, loose, fun.
- Lack of martial intent during practice.
- Practitioners with unrealistic ideas about fighting and self-defense.
What Joep said. This pretty much nails it, and I agree with some of those points.
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Old 10-07-2009, 06:14 AM   #11
DonMagee
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

If you only 'think' or 'believe' aikido is effective, then in my opinion you are training wrong.

I know my bjj/judo/boxing works. I don't think it works, I don't believe some old guy that it works, and I don't need the justification of others to say it works.

I got out there and I use it every single day.

How do I know? It's simple.

I've been boxing for 4 weeks now. When I had my first sparing match 2 weeks in I was awful. I was beaten and bloodied and broken (spiritually). My last sparing session I was able to slip punches and hit a guy who was trying to beat my face in. So now I know that it works. I know that if someone is taking shots at me, I have the ability to slip punches and hit him back.

The same is true with my judo, my bjj, even my aikido. I've actually used ikkyo against someone trying to take me down and choke the crap out of me. I've actually been able to use my judo to throw down guys bigger and stronger then I was who were trying to do the same. I've even used them all together at the same time.

So I have no doubts about if what I'm training works. I know it does. I did the testing. I put in the blood sweat and pain.

Does that mean what you are doing works? Nope.

You need to be a skeptic. You need to be a scientist. You need to test what you are learning.

Does this mean failure means what you are doing doesn't work? No. In many cases as a beginner what you are learning simply will not work for you. It took me a year to really get a good grasp of many sweeps and transitions of bjj. I never won a match in a judo tournament until i was a brown belt. I still get more then I give in boxing.

The difference is I see progress. I can walk into any gym in this country and jump into a sparing session and use what I know to defend myself. I see continuous improvement on these skills. Most importantly, they work when I don't know what my attacker is going to do and my attacker is not cooperating. For example, 2 years ago when a large muscle guy with no training would take a bjj class, I would struggle to control and submit him. Today if a guy like that takes a bjj class he is almost comical in my eyes. I can defeat him without even breaking a sweat.

I don't know if that helps you. Maybe give this a read http://aliveness101.blogspot.com/200...aliveness.html

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 10-07-2009, 09:16 AM   #12
CarrieP
 
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

We've had a lot of new members join our dojo recently, so this question in a similar form has come up a lot recently ("How do I use aikido in a fight? What if I get into a fight at school? How do I defend myself?")

Our dojo flat-out says that if you want to learn self-defense, aikido's not the way to go. Aikido is more a holistic art, where you are learning a lot of basic body movement, and more subtle things, especially at the beginner levels. And yes, some aikido dojos are better than others at teaching the martial part of martial arts (distance, striking effectively, etc).

I see it as a different way of learning. MMA is a faster style of learning. But aikido is much more gradual. Both are valid depending on what you are trying to do.

It takes a lot longer to learn the principles of aikido, but I think that laying that deep foundation is really important.

And I'm all about sparring or grappling or some such. Because sparring does help you see what works and what doesn't in a situation that is more controlled but a bit more dynamic, closer to real-life.

You do tend to learn to move off the line faster when a punch is being thrown at you.
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Old 10-07-2009, 09:23 AM   #13
Flintstone
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

Just let them believe Aikdio doesn't work.
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Old 10-07-2009, 09:39 AM   #14
lbb
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
An interesting question.
Yes, and one that nobody has ever asked before. Especially not on this forum.

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Old 10-07-2009, 10:05 AM   #15
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
Here are a few reasons. (I don't completely agree with all of them, btw, and some of them overlap a bit.)
- No sparring or 'alive' training.
- Limited technical curriculum (no body-to-body grappling, no punching/kicking).
- No aiki.
- Aikido has not proven itself in MMA fights.
- Developed from a very limited paradigm (koryu jujutsu / yawara) and never transcended that.
- Assumes the presence of weapons, but rarely trains with weapons present.
- Aikido makes unrealistic claims about doing a minimal amount of damage to the attacker.
- Most Aikido practitioners don't look mean enough.
- Lack of physical conditioning (strength/endurance/speed).
- Knowingly practicing many unrealistic (too elaborate) techniques to explore principles and ideas.
- Training techniques on poorly executed attacks during training.
- Aikido doesn't look violent enough.
- Training atmosphere is too relaxed, loose, fun.
- Lack of martial intent during practice.
- Practitioners with unrealistic ideas about fighting and self-defense.
This list is pretty great. It includes all of the major points of contention.

While some of these points are dead on, some are dead wrong, and some are simply misconceptions. All of them need to be addressed and understood. That is if we ever do want to stop beating the proverbial dead horse (Nice gif Mary).

Last edited by ChrisHein : 10-07-2009 at 10:08 AM.

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Old 10-07-2009, 10:14 AM   #16
Aikibu
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

For the same reasons they believe The Moon landing was staged...Elvis is still alive...and our current President was born in Kenya...

Some folks got allot of mileage out of continuously bashing Aikido's "effectiveness"

They hold up this analogy and that fact and shout out how dreadful it all is that we Aikidoka are fooling ourselves...

Well in answer to your question Folks have a right to think anything they want and I have no right to change their opinion other than to express mine.... All I know is that my Aikido works just fine thank you very much. That being said even after almost 20 years I have my hands full just trying to improve my practice...

If your Aikido sucks what are YOU going to do about it....

Me...Continue to Cross Train to improve our Aikido's "effectiveness" as a Martial Art

Practice Hard (though I am getting old LOL)

Find someone who actually knows Aiki locally

and see how far I can go because I love it!!! I hope to practice for another 20 years and can't wait to see what's around the next corner in my Aikido journey.

Good Luck with yours youngster and remember... A little doubt is a good thing if you use it as motivation to get better.

William Hazen
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Old 10-07-2009, 10:34 AM   #17
Phil Van Treese
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

Some people have never had to use it. Others have more than their share of ignorance. I used it in Viet Nam and that's why I am still here and others are not. Convince me it doesn't work!!!!
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Old 10-07-2009, 10:49 AM   #18
SeaGrass
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

Like Ikeda sensei said: "It's not aikido that doesn't work, it's YOUR aikido that doesn't work"
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Old 10-07-2009, 10:49 AM   #19
jss
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Phil Van Treese wrote: View Post
Convince me it doesn't work!!!!
Ok! Grab my wrist. No, dammmit, the other one!
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Old 10-07-2009, 10:52 AM   #20
observer
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
and see how far I can go because I love it!!! I hope to practice for another 20 years and can't wait to see what's around the next corner in my Aikido journey.
Is this you think about basketball, William? It is just a game and the points do not count.
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Old 10-07-2009, 11:07 AM   #21
Aikibu
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote: View Post
Is this you think about basketball, William? It is just a game and the points do not count.
The points count in Basketball because it is a game with rules, a winner and a loser...

Life cannot simply be reduced to a "game" of "win or lose", and this is why I enjoy Aikido so much...

"We are all one..." Sai Baba

William Hazen
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Old 10-07-2009, 11:13 AM   #22
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

Bas Rutten: Aikido in MMA
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Old 10-08-2009, 12:37 AM   #23
Eric Joyce
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

I think the majority of people on here covered it already so I won't add a whole lot to the conversation. The problem with techniques that can't be practiced in alive training (sparring, randori, rolling etc) is that you never develop your nervous system to use it under anything but idealized circumstances. The key in making your Aikido effective is in the training methodology...to train your body and place your self under varying and adverse circumstances.
That's where it will come alive. This goes for any art really.

Eric Joyce
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Old 10-08-2009, 01:14 AM   #24
Edward
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

There is only one way to prove aikido's effectiveness. It's not sparring, not MMA. You go to the port and pick up a fight with a few sailors, like Gozo Shioda used to do. Alternatively you can pick up a fight in a bar or something similar. That's the only way to know, at your own risk. Not for me though, I have nothing to prove neither to myself nor to others. I prefer to avoid any kind of conflict that might lead to physical damage, even if you win.
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Old 10-08-2009, 02:54 AM   #25
jss
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Edward Karaa wrote: View Post
There is only one way to prove aikido's effectiveness.
To actually prove it, we should do a double-blind study.

Quote:
You go to the port and pick up a fight with a few sailors, like Gozo Shioda used to do. Alternatively you can pick up a fight in a bar or something similar.
That's a limited view on effectiveness. Going to a bar, approaching a sailor without him noticing your ill intent, inflicting a deadly wound with a concealable edged weapon and being able to leave the bar without anyone knowing you killed the guy, seems to be more effective.
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