Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Training

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-12-2009, 08:06 PM   #1
Suru
Location: Miami, FL
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 453
United_States
Offline
Re: Japanese Aikido Teachers - Translation

Dear Ledyard Sensei,

You're a senior instructor (rokudan) in the the ASU, as I understand. I know you go to seminars, and surely you have seen and probably felt Saotome Shihan's Aikido. Now, I'm not a big fan of the UFC, or TV in general, but when I happen to watch UFC, I get enjoyment from the bouts of highly skilled and usually strong fighters. For many, many years, I've had a futile argument (because it will never be solved) with my brother. I have told him that I have seen a 70-year-old Japanese man (Saotome), who simply would not lose a fight in the octagon. Now, granted, he might have to "complete" some kotegaeshis or perhaps execute shihonage the "special" way. My brother's sound arguments usually pertain to the youth and strength of many of the fighters, and how that would overwhelm Saotome. To this day, though resulting probably in many conclusions requiring hospitalization for his opponets, he would prevail. I tell my brother the Aikido is not "here" (pointing to my bicep), but here (pointing to my head). Ledyard Sensei, I know we're not talking about even vaguely the average Aikidoka, but what do you believe would happen if for some reason a master (let's stick to Mitsugi Saotome for this argument), were for some reason forced to enter the octagon? I hope you respond, Ledyard Sensei, because your thoughts on this would mean a great deal to me.

Drew
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2009, 08:31 PM   #2
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Japanese Aikido Teachers - Translation

I'm not George but...I wouldn't go there Drew.
Your comment about it not being about muscle? Don't e-v-e-r make the mistake of thinking that old school grapplers nor some of the smarter younger ones (I know a few) are muscle heads. It's not wise. Soft wrestling, and winning by positioning, thinking set-ups and feints and playing your opponent have been around for a very long time, sir. It is disrespectful of both parties efforts for you to assume so much going in.

And FWIW, fighting a trained fighter is not the same as self-defense or what most weapons based martial arts even train for. Nor is it what aikido is about. I would save your comparisons for something else more viable. Budo can do much more for you than the octagon.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-12-2009 at 08:36 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2009, 09:00 PM   #3
thisisnotreal
 
thisisnotreal's Avatar
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 692
Offline
Re: Japanese Aikido Teachers - Translation

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I think it is good to continue to point out there is not only technical differences but spiritual ones as well. But....you also need to begin to discuss a separation of aiki itself from technique. This is a deeper discussion that I believe you would benefit from. Aiki is not waza. It is not small circle VS big circle or anything of the like. As some might tell you the training they do with me is affecting ...them...spiritually and emotionally.

No, not that they are the same, I'm not saying that at all, just that you can separate internal training and Aiki and what it does to you out from both arts DR and Aikido and or make them inexorable componants of the arts.
Aiki is not about just about your quote that "Aikido missing out on some of Ueshiba's "martial" aspects" It is deeper than that.
...
Cheers
Dan
Hi Dan,
Could you please say a little bit more about this? This seems deeply insightful but I cannot grasp your meaning.
With Respect,
Josh
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2009, 09:04 PM   #4
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,632
Offline
Re: Japanese Aikido Teachers - Translation

Quote:
Drew Gardner wrote: View Post
Ledyard Sensei, I know we're not talking about even vaguely the average Aikidoka, but what do you believe would happen if for some reason a master (let's stick to Mitsugi Saotome for this argument), were for some reason forced to enter the octagon? I hope you respond, Ledyard Sensei, because your thoughts on this would mean a great deal to me.

Drew
I will say that the only time I know of when Sensei had to actually defend himself, he went straight to the center with an atemi and broke the guys jaw with one shot. That was the end of it.

So, let's get real. The man is seventy. His shoulder is shot, he has knee problems, his body is old and has high miles on it. If by some chance he had an encounter of that nature he would need to end it in one shot or he'd lose. I certainly don't think he'd even consider a wrist lock or any other type of lock or throw.

That is the difference between sport and combat. In a sport fight Sensei would lose. Of course he would. Wouldn't even be close. In a combat encounter he would have a chance by ending it immediately. His sense of space and timing is superb and he can strike with a lot of power when he turns it on. If he got the first shot in, he'd win if he hit the target he aimed at. But if he takes a shot from some 380 lb 27 year old who bench presses 350 lbs, it's over for him. He is old. That said, it is VERY hard to hit him.

So for someone like Saotome Sensei it is about "one strike, one death" or something close.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2009, 09:05 PM   #5
Suru
Location: Miami, FL
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 453
United_States
Offline
Re: Japanese Aikido Teachers - Translation

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I'm not George but...I wouldn't go there Drew.
Your comment about it not being about muscle? Don't e-v-e-r make the mistake of thinking that old school grapplers nor some of the smarter younger ones (I know a few) are muscle heads. It's not wise. Soft wrestling, and winning by positioning, thinking set-ups and feints and playing your opponent have been around for a very long time, sir. It is disrespectful of both parties efforts for you to assume so much going in.

And FWIW, fighting a trained fighter is not the same as self-defense or what most weapons based martial arts even train for. Nor is it what aikido is about. I would save your comparisons for something else more viable. Budo can do much more for you than the octagon.
Cheers
Dan
One man is announced the winner. Just because Aikidoka are never seen in the UFC, partially because it is a non-competitive MARTIAL art, and partially because joints would probably have to be snapped, doesn't mean a master Aikidoka can't hold his own. AND OH YES, I WENT THERE.

Drew
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2009, 09:18 PM   #6
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,632
Offline
Re: Japanese Aikido Teachers - Translation

Quote:
Drew Gardner wrote: View Post
Now, granted, he might have to "complete" some kotegaeshis or perhaps execute shihonage the "special" way.
Drew,
I wanted to address this separately. Ellis Amdur Sensei once told us that in almost all martial arts there are techniques which one trains in . not because he thinks he will actually do those techniques on an opponent, but rather so he can understand those techniques well enough that no one can do them on him.

The idea that anyone would go out and whip a lock on a professional fighter of the UFC caliber is a non-starter. These guys do locking and they practice how to not get locked.

This is why in all the old Noma Dojo photos of O-Sensei in the thirties EVERY single entry had a strike. That was the very first thing you did, strike the opponent on the first beat. For someone with real internal power those strikes were finishers in themselves. I am talking about death or serious injury.

The whole "I can defend myself without injury to my opponent" only applies when you have vastly superior skill. Against a professional, one or the other of you is going down with serious injury.

There is no magic. Much of what we do is "magical" in many ways. But real fighting is different and it isn't elegant or pretty. The only way you'll see me get a kotegaeshi on someone skilled in a fight is if they are half unconscious already from my entry.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2009, 10:18 PM   #7
Suru
Location: Miami, FL
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 453
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido in the UFC

Ledyard Sensei,

Thank you so much for your replies. They weren't exactly what I expected, but they make a lot of sense to me. Now, I hate to sound all rainbows-and-butterflies, but I think life is about finding something close to happiness. Saotome Shihan seems to find happiness through sharing his vast knowledge of Aikido, and Royce Gracie (if he still fights) seems to find himself happiest with the thrills of getting arm bars on opponents in the UFC and making them tap-out. We're all kinda the same but certainly have our differences. That's pretty much what makes life enjoyable to me. And I'm going to show this thread to my older brother, and he will finally shut me up! Anyway, I'm drifting away. Please excuse the fact that this post is drifting all over the place. I hope to read some good posts tomorrow morning.

Drew
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2009, 06:16 PM   #8
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Aikido in the UFC

Royce seems to find happiness in teaching Jiu Jitsu these days....just like any other martial arts master of his skill, knowledge and caliber.

George brings up a good point about locks and practicing to avoid them.

During our Army Combatives course, I spend about 4 hours over the course of three days discussing martial methodology and paradigms watching the trend of fighting strategies from UFC 1 through about 20.

Bottom line is in the early ones you see alot of dissonance occur, for example, when fighers meet Royce Gracie and do not have a strategy to deal with him effectively. As time (knowledge and skill) progress, rules become more codified and understood (constraints, limitations, and the operating environment)...we see fighters and strategies solidify and evolve.

It was easy to assume early on the ground fighting and BJJ was the answer to everything. However, fighters that did not have ground skills learned how to defeat the grappling game somewhat.

They did not have to become proficient at grappling, just had to learn enough to defeat that strategy and respond to it appropriately.

Much can be learn at adaptive learning and from MMA paradigms in these areas.

As I say, at least once a day it seems, you have to understand why you are doing what you are doing, how to measure it effectively, and develop a sound strategy for meeting that endstate.

Comparing Saotome Sensei (who is my senior shihan and has jacked me up good when I was a young Mudansha!), to say Brock Lesnar is not a good comparison at all ( I train with one of Brock's old wrestling competitors too!).

You are comparing two completely different "fighters" with different strategies, goals, and endstates. (not to mention size, age etc!).

What is the point?

There is much I can learn from Saotome Sensei, as Ledyard Sensei points out, he has some very good skills especially in the category of timing, mushin etc. Years, and years of wisdom that can help me.

Same with a guy like Lesnar, much to be learned there as well.

UFC and MMA teaches us many, many good lessons "IF" we are willing to take the time and evaluate what we are learning from them.

Same can be said of arts like Aikido.

We don't need to pit the two against each other in order to determine which one is best.

It is like trying to take a Ferrari in the Jungles of Africa! Why?

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2009, 10:44 PM   #9
swalsh
Dojo: Watanabe dojo/Australia
Location: Perth
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 9
Australia
Offline
Re: Aikido in the UFC

I couldn't resist These aikido vs MMA discussions always remind me of this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2009, 10:51 PM   #10
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
Location: Oceanside, California
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,124
Offline
Re: Aikido in the UFC

Great simile, Kevin. I will use it, perhaps with appropriate credit, when this debate comes up again.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2009, 01:54 AM   #11
gdandscompserv
 
gdandscompserv's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,214
United_States
Offline
Re: Japanese Aikido Teachers - Translation

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Soft wrestling,
I really wish I'd had some instruction in "soft wrestling" when I was actively involved in that sport. I think I would have done so much better.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2009, 05:59 AM   #12
Charles Hill
Dojo: Numazu Aikikai/Aikikai Honbu Dojo
Location: Three Lakes WI/ Mishima Japan
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 837
Offline
Re: Aikido in the UFC

Hi Drew,

Kudos to you for having the courage to ask the questions you want answers to.

Quote:
Drew Gardner wrote: View Post
Royce Gracie (if he still fights) seems to find himself happiest with the thrills of getting arm bars on opponents in the UFC and making them tap-out.
In Japan, to kill time between fights, they show biographical background, documentary type footage of the fighters before the next fight. I forgot who Gracie's opponent was, but he talked a bit of trash and there were scenes of him kicking the crap out of sparring partners. Royce's footage focused mainly on his family, his wife and two sons. They had footage of him sparring with his sons in the garage dojo, one shot of his 5 year old putting an arm bar on Royce. The smile on his face could not have been bigger. He is a serious and even scary guy in the ring, but he comes off as a great dad. I bet that is where he is happiest.

Charles
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2009, 06:06 AM   #13
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido in the UFC

Quote:
Charles Hill wrote: View Post
Hi Drew,

Kudos to you for having the courage to ask the questions you want answers to.

In Japan, to kill time between fights, they show biographical background, documentary type footage of the fighters before the next fight. I forgot who Gracie's opponent was, but he talked a bit of trash and there were scenes of him kicking the crap out of sparring partners. Royce's footage focused mainly on his family, his wife and two sons. They had footage of him sparring with his sons in the garage dojo, one shot of his 5 year old putting an arm bar on Royce. The smile on his face could not have been bigger. He is a serious and even scary guy in the ring, but he comes off as a great dad. I bet that is where he is happiest.

Charles
You are thinking of Rickson, not Royce. That movie was Choke.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2009, 04:49 PM   #14
Charles Hill
Dojo: Numazu Aikikai/Aikikai Honbu Dojo
Location: Three Lakes WI/ Mishima Japan
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 837
Offline
Re: Aikido in the UFC

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
You are thinking of Rickson, not Royce. That movie was Choke.
Hi Don,

No, I haven't seen Choke yet. This was definitely Royce. It is interesting that there are similar scenes with the two brothers. I am sure we are seeing how they themselves were raised.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2009, 05:18 PM   #15
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
Location: Malibu, California
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,295
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido in the UFC

I have never seen nor "sparred" with anyone without using Atemi...Aikido without "strikes" is not a Martial Art and don't fool yourself into thinking otherwise

Anyone who watched UFC 100 saw that over half the contests were won with strikes and that striking/feints/counters and kicks... were used to get opponents to the ground

From the look of it no one in the world is going to beat Brock Lesner by out wrestling/grappling him even though it's true he lost his debut to Frank Mir by tapping out on an ankle lock.

In his pre-fight interview Lesner admitted he would not make the same tactical mistake again. the dude pounded and destroyed Mir with strikes...

Striking is such a powerful weapon that once you get knocked out The chances of you getting knocked out again increase ten fold which is why Chuck Liddel retired after getting knocked out in his last three fights.

For most Aikidoka (and for me) the only chance of you prevailing in a "Martial Contest" is knowing how to execute proper Atemi and counter your opponents strikes.

In that context I noticed how popular Karate is again in the UFC (Thanks Sensei Machida! LOL) since all forms of Karate emphasize Maai and Striking. I saw a few of the contestants throw kicks without "winding up" (Like most do in Muay Thai) It should be no different with good Aikido.

William Hazen
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2009, 05:22 PM   #16
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
Location: Malibu, California
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,295
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido in the UFC

Quote:
Stuart Walsh wrote: View Post
I couldn't resist These aikido vs MMA discussions always remind me of this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I
Why??? He's not practicing Aikido...

William Hazen
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2009, 06:00 PM   #17
Suru
Location: Miami, FL
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 453
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido in the UFC

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
You are comparing two completely different "fighters" with different strategies, goals, and endstates. (not to mention size, age etc!).

What is the point?

We don't need to pit the two against each other in order to determine which one is best.

It is like trying to take a Ferrari in the Jungles of Africa! Why?
Different strategies of course! That's the whole point! Different goals? Oh no, there is but one goal shared between the two fighters in the octagon: win. Of course this is against any serious Aikidoka's philosophy. It is a hypothetical situation, which is why I initially called my argument with my brother "futile." By endstates, I suppose you mean the goal is not to get hurt at all while KOing or forcing the opponent into conscious submission.

Don't you realize the guys in the UFC are martial artists? Don't you consider Aikido to be a martial art? If not, it is not a true budo, is it?

As far as size, there are weight classes. As far as age, there's one guy who usually wins and he looks like a porn star out of the 60's!

I proposed a thoughtful and realistic hypothetical, and I'm surprised you don't realize that.

As soon as I can afford my F50, I'm going to tear up the Savannah.

Drew
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2009, 06:59 PM   #18
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido in the UFC

Quote:
Charles Hill wrote: View Post
Hi Don,

No, I haven't seen Choke yet. This was definitely Royce. It is interesting that there are similar scenes with the two brothers. I am sure we are seeing how they themselves were raised.
Do you know what the movie was called. I spent the last 10 minutes searching imdb.com and can't find any movies Royce was in where they went to fight in Japan. The closest movie is about Mark Kerr which features Royce in the cast, yet does not seem to be focused on him at all.

I'd really like to see it, that's why I'm asking.

Oh and here's choke http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...07955834503993. It starts with his Son armbaring him LOL.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2009, 07:25 PM   #19
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,632
Offline
Re: Aikido in the UFC

Quote:
Drew Gardner wrote: View Post
Saotome Shihan seems to find happiness through sharing his vast knowledge of Aikido,
Actually, Drew, I think that Saotome Sensei, and most of the former uchi deshi I have met, carry their Aikido as a kind of burden. Every Shihan I talked to felt a huge debt of gratitude towards the Founder and a deep responsibility to justify the trust O-Sensei bestowed on them by teaching them.

I do not think this is an easy thing. I think it has a tendency to weigh upon them, especially as they get older and start thinking about whether their legacy would seem to justify their unique fortune in being deshi to one of the great martial arts figures of the twentieth century. It's like having a super famous Dad... how do you measure up?

Sensei has been my teacher for 33 years. I have seen him on and off the mat on good days and bad days. I will tell you that I honestly think that Sensei is happiest, not when he is teaching Aikido, but when he is doing something creative, something artistic. Teaching is his way of trying to pay back the Founder. But his success or failure is dependent on us as his students. If we don't measure up, he can't feel as if he has fulfilled his own mission. That's the hard part about being a teacher... you cannot achieve anything alone. You must have willing students who will sacrifice to go the distance in order to teach. That somewhat distorts the teacher student relationship because there is something more going on than just the teacher passing on knowledge to you. Anyway, as a teacher myself, I can tell you that this is not an easy thing to have as a mission.

I was in DC for Summer Camp many years ago. We were on break between classes and I was hanging around the dojo. Saotome Sensei had this huge, beautiful piece of drift wood and was busy with his hand tools (no power tools) working away on it. Turns out he was making a table for Paul Kang Sensei, one of his seniors students. I had this flash that this was the totally authentic Sensei, the one that wasn't burdened by his mission, who worried about whether we'd screw up Aikido, whether O-Sensei would think he had been a success. Sensei was totally in the moment, creating something beautiful simply because he wanted to, not because he had to. He was completely and absolutely content. That's when I think Sensei is truly happy.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2009, 08:11 PM   #20
Suru
Location: Miami, FL
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 453
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido in the UFC

Ledyard Sensei, thanks for that information. When I spoke of Saotome Shihan's happiness, it was rather quick and projective. I can totally see how passing on O'Sensei's Aikido is indeed a burden. It's not like he's super-rich because of it, or, more importantly, has gobs of free time to spend whatever income he makes. One of his books had slipped my mind at the time. His book about woodworking, tailoring, cooking, Shodo, and other arts in which he partakes, certainly shows he finds enjoyment and probably much of his happiness in these undertakings. I know what he means! I am fortunate enough to have spent last winter in woodworking, ceramics, and painting. Making my own jo and bokken seemed impossible at first, but working with much guidance from a master who had never seen an Aikido weapon, we pulled it off. My jo is pretty much perfect, as we were fortunate enough to find a 1.5 x 5 of walnut that reached perfectly to my armpit. The clearer I could see the light at the end of the tunnel, the happier I was. Making a jo, bokken, and kake out of raw planks really felt good. The bokken is a little too thick, as my fingers don't quite touch the base of my hand, but it's not so far off that I wouldn't use it in class on that glorious day I go back. I made ceramics, mostly Western Raku, for about 17 friends and family members. Making them, I was happy. Giving them to people I love made me happier. I got back into acrylic painting, and covering a 50" x 50" canvas after stretching it is not easy. But I'm really happy with my neurotransmitter synapse image, even though I'll probably never give it away. The same is true for my kanji paintings of the elements, as well as, ai, ki, jin, and kikari. I have received an incredible, natural high from my paintings. Anyway, I've been rambling. The point is that I appreciate your views, Sensei, and I have some understanding first hand of what you mean.

Drew
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2009, 08:19 PM   #21
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 971
New Zealand
Offline
Re: Aikido in the UFC

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Anyone who watched UFC 100 saw that over half the contests were won with strikes and that striking/feints/counters and kicks... were used to get opponents to the ground
You do realise that striking is back to the fore only because all the fighters now have a very strong grappling base right?
Quote:

From the look of it no one in the world is going to beat Brock Lesner by out wrestling/grappling him even though it's true he lost his debut to Frank Mir by tapping out on an ankle lock.
I agree Brock is going to be hard to out wrestle -makes sense given he a a wrestler and huge. He may still be vulnerable to some subs but the setup is crucial.
Quote:
For most Aikidoka (and for me) the only chance of you prevailing in a "Martial Contest" is knowing how to execute proper Atemi and counter your opponents strikes.

In that context I noticed how popular Karate is again in the UFC (Thanks Sensei Machida! LOL)
waitaminnut. Karate is popular in the ufc? Other than Machida who else is using karate? (and I don't mean who else took somse karate lessons for a while - who is actually using it?)
Quote:
since all forms of Karate emphasize Maai and Striking. I saw a few of the contestants throw kicks without "winding up" (Like most do in Muay Thai) It should be no different with good Aikido.
lets pout the karate thing to one side and agree that muay thai is effective in the octogon. Do you see any differnce between how striking is trained in a muay thai club and an aikido dojo? It's not enough for folks to simply say "well we'd do more atemi and be effective" it's all about how you train. The whole aliveness thing. I agree with Kevin,Aikido and MMA have very differnent purposes and to compare them is a little silly. Moreover I think these types of conversations tragically undervalue aikido which is a shame.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2009, 08:49 PM   #22
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 971
New Zealand
Offline
Re: Aikido in the UFC

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Do you know what the movie was called. I spent the last 10 minutes searching imdb.com and can't find any movies Royce was in where they went to fight in Japan. The closest movie is about Mark Kerr which features Royce in the cast, yet does not seem to be focused on him at all.

I'd really like to see it, that's why I'm asking.

Oh and here's choke http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...07955834503993. It starts with his Son armbaring him LOL.
Don I don't think he was referring to a movie per se as a "background" clip shown before a fight -maybe on pride v saku or someone like that?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2009, 08:56 PM   #23
Michael Varin
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 567
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido in the UFC

I was initially going to post on the obsurdity of Saotome participating in a UFC event. The thread seems to have steered away from that discussion.

The UFC has contributed much to martial arts, but it is a sad day if we believe the final word has been spoken.

The paradigm contemplated by aikido, jujutsu, and most other traditional martial arts is far from that of the UFC.

It is one where weapons, multiple opponents, and the element of surprise are the most important ingredients.

The techniques of aikido are simply out of place in the context of the UFC. This is by no means a knock on aikido. The techniques of BJJ are not relevant in the UFC anymore either.

The reason why is that they are not necessary in unarmed fighting.

But add a weapon to the mix and ground and pound will look a whole lot less attractive.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2009, 09:43 PM   #24
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Aikido in the UFC

Quote:
Drew Gardner wrote: View Post
Different strategies of course! That's the whole point! Different goals? Oh no, there is but one goal shared between the two fighters in the octagon: win. Of course this is against any serious Aikidoka's philosophy. It is a hypothetical situation, which is why I initially called my argument with my brother "futile." By endstates, I suppose you mean the goal is not to get hurt at all while KOing or forcing the opponent into conscious submission.

Don't you realize the guys in the UFC are martial artists? Don't you consider Aikido to be a martial art? If not, it is not a true budo, is it?

As far as size, there are weight classes. As far as age, there's one guy who usually wins and he looks like a porn star out of the 60's!

I proposed a thoughtful and realistic hypothetical, and I'm surprised you don't realize that.

As soon as I can afford my F50, I'm going to tear up the Savannah.

Drew
Well yes, if they were both in the ring for sure they have the same goal of winning. The difference is that one guy has trained to be good enough to win in the Octagon, the other has trained for something entirely different.

I actually wrote a post on my blog about this a couple of months ago "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight" http://www.budo-warrior.com/?p=157

No, by endstates I am referring to the fact that each of them train with different goals in mind in their training practices on a daily basis. Which is why I offer up the whole Ferrarri analogy. Which, yes makes this a "futile" subject really. BUT a good one to frame a decent discussion on martial practices and methodology.

Of course they are both "martial artist", but that covers a whole range of folks and paradigms for sure! I like to paint, but I can't really paint a car nor can I restore a 12 Century painting, or paint portraits for a living...but I still like to do that and consider myself a "painter". There is alot of room for interpretation and practice in the martial arts.

IMO, it does not have to be all about how well you do or don't do in the Octagon.

Do I consider aikido to be a martial art? well somedays I do and somedays I don't. I try and practice it as such, but my aikido is not for everyone, and even the guy standing next to me in the same dojo may do something entirely different. I don't think we can really generalize. Budo is a concept, and their are budoka, but I believe i the same dojo you will have some folks doing budo and some folks doing something else such as Exercise, socialization, or whatever else they see themselves doing.

Certainly did not mean to be little your post, I do think it is meaningful and a good topic of discussion, which is why I contribute!

Have fun in the Ferrari!

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2009, 09:51 PM   #25
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido in the UFC

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
The techniques of BJJ are not relevant in the UFC anymore either.
I have to disagree. Submission, defenses, and positional control are 100% relevant to the UFC. Is it the predominate style practiced by MMA practitioners? I have no idea, however any hand to hand combat sport trained in an alive fashion (judo, boxing, bjj, wrestling, sambo, etc) is 100% relevant in the UFC.

Far too many people think that just because a guy is on top doing a ground and pound that he must be a wrestler. I've never had a day of wrestling training. But what I've learned in judo and bjj allow me to control the top and lay down blows just as easily.

It all comes down to method of practice. If you practice by doing what you actually expect to be doing then you are going to be effective. If you practice by playing a game of grab ass then you will not.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Budo Bear Patterns - Sewing pattern for Women's (and Men's) dogi.



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 6 Peter Goldsbury Columns 35 03-13-2009 06:16 PM
The continued Evolution of Aikido salim General 716 12-27-2008 10:00 PM
Aikido in Amsterdam, Terry Lax style... tiyler_durden General 11 11-03-2008 08:31 AM
Women and Everybody Else in Aikido George S. Ledyard Teaching 113 03-16-2008 07:27 PM
Dilution of aikido eugene_lo General 40 02-07-2006 11:22 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:11 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate