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Old 07-12-2009, 04:23 PM   #1
dps
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What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

What did O'Sensei's students want from him? A spititual message or a martial ability?

David
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Old 07-12-2009, 05:08 PM   #2
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

Student, who?
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Old 07-12-2009, 05:46 PM   #3
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

I'm not sure he separated the two.
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Old 07-13-2009, 06:16 AM   #4
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
What did O'Sensei's students want from him? A spititual message or a martial ability?

David
I'm sure it varied from student to student. Gozo Shioda, for example, was primarily attracted to the quality of his budo. He was never really into the teachings of the Omoto faith. My impression is that that is the case for many of his students - especially those from the earlier generation.

...rab
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Old 07-13-2009, 06:32 AM   #5
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

Hello David,

I am not entirely sure why you have started this thread. Stanley Pranin interviewed many of Morihei Ueshiba's uchi-deshi in the Kobukan Dojo and also many of his postwar students. Assuming that you have read these interviews, I wonder what else you might be looking for. Generally speaking, the students were not so precise about what they wanted from him.

Best wishes,

PAG

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
What did O'Sensei's students want from him? A spititual message or a martial ability?

David

P A Goldsbury
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Old 07-13-2009, 07:52 AM   #6
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

Probably the same thing I want from my Sensei... to be taught... Whatever it is he has to teach me. Each applies the learning to his own life in his own way.
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Old 07-13-2009, 08:18 AM   #7
dps
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Hello David,

I am not entirely sure why you have started this thread. Stanley Pranin interviewed many of Morihei Ueshiba's uchi-deshi in the Kobukan Dojo and also many of his postwar students. Assuming that you have read these interviews, I wonder what else you might be looking for. Generally speaking, the students were not so precise about what they wanted from him.

Best wishes,

PAG
No I haven't read them but I will look them up.

What were the people who came to learn from him expecting to learn. Since most of them were already accomplished martial artists, what were they wanting from O'Sensei, more martial ability, a better understanding of what they already knew, a religious understanding or did they just want to learn what he had to teach because he was such a well know person.

David
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Old 07-13-2009, 08:36 AM   #8
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

Perhaps all of the above and more. I think like each of us they probably all had their own reasons for wanting to learn.

Why do you ask?

A better question would be what is it that you are looking for from your training?
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Old 07-13-2009, 09:39 AM   #9
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
No I haven't read them but I will look them up.

What were the people who came to learn from him expecting to learn. Since most of them were already accomplished martial artists, what were they wanting from O'Sensei, more martial ability, a better understanding of what they already knew, a religious understanding or did they just want to learn what he had to teach because he was such a well know person.
Emphasis mine.

I think Peter's point was...we're not them. So, maybe if you want to know the answer to your questions, you'd do better to consult a reference such as the one he posted, rather than ask us.
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Old 07-13-2009, 11:11 AM   #10
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Emphasis mine.

I think Peter's point was...we're not them. So, maybe if you want to know the answer to your questions, you'd do better to consult a reference such as the one he posted, rather than ask us.
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Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Generally speaking, the students were not so precise about what they wanted from him.
So does anyone else have some ideas or other references.

David
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Old 07-22-2009, 11:17 AM   #11
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

To be forcefully transformed into something better than they thought they were?
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Old 07-26-2009, 08:41 PM   #12
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

I think it's a valid question. There's definitely a "physical" and a "spiritual" aspect to the art - it'd be interesting to know what the first gen aiki students sought. I also haven't read any interviews - but if I were to ask the question, I'd start here as well. There seemed to be some aggression towards David about his motives. Perhaps he asked it here because it's largest gathering of people who might be "in the know". Not just new students, but seasoned/experienced practitioners.
As an instructor in Christian martial arts, I also am faced (when new students join), of just what it is that they are seeking - martial arts, spiritual understanding, self awareness, etc.

So here's a follow up question to clarify David's - of those original students of OSensei, who had previous martial experience/rank - how long did they train with him before "moving on"?

Last edited by Shannon Frye : 07-26-2009 at 08:42 PM. Reason: typos

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Old 07-26-2009, 09:01 PM   #13
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

Hello,

I think you see aggression where none was intended. There was a definite assumption on my part that David had already done some reading before starting the thread. Hence my question: are you looking for information over and above what is readily available, on this and other websites?

I believe there is a difference between asking a question and being aggressive or confrontational. So, in answer to your own question, I pose a similar question to you: have you looked for this information on the web and been unsuccessful? I suggest Aikido Journal as a first stop.

By the way, I am instructor of aikido in Japan and I am hardly ever faced with questions of what the students who come to our dojo are seeking. I assume beforehand that they are seeking to train in the Japanese martial art that I am practicing and teaching. This is usually a good beginning.

Best wishes,

P Goldsbury

Quote:
Shannon Frye wrote: View Post
I think it's a valid question. There's definitely a "physical" and a "spiritual" aspect to the art - it'd be interesting to know what the first gen aiki students sought. I also haven't read any interviews - but if I were to ask the question, I'd start here as well. There seemed to be some aggression towards David about his motives. Perhaps he asked it here because it's largest gathering of people who might be "in the know". Not just new students, but seasoned/experienced practitioners.
As an instructor in Christian martial arts, I also am faced (when new students join), of just what it is that they are seeking - martial arts, spiritual understanding, self awareness, etc.

So here's a follow up question to clarify David's - of those original students of OSensei, who had previous martial experience/rank - how long did they train with him before "moving on"?

P A Goldsbury
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Old 07-26-2009, 09:24 PM   #14
Shannon Frye
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

Ok - let's set aside the aggression issue (perceived or otherwise).

Why is it that a question is questioned with another question?? Wouldn't an answer have been much simpler? I cannot speak for Davis, but I'll sure speak for myself... I have not researched this question, unless you count THIS forum as a first stop on a journey of knowledge. How do you expect to encourage members to pose questions or topics by telling them I to look somewhere else, and find the answer elsewhere?

By the way, as an Aikido, karate, and iaido instructor in America, I do take the time to make sure that I have something to offer everyone who honors me by being a student of mine. Perhaps this is a cultural thing, an aspect of Christian martial arts, or a benefit of having respectively smaller dojos (My classes are taught out of at 3 churches).

Can we please get away from answering someones question with yet another question? We appreciate your input - please honor us with it.

Respectfully,
Shannon

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Hello,

I think you see aggression where none was intended. There was a definite assumption on my part that David had already done some reading before starting the thread. Hence my question: are you looking for information over and above what is readily available, on this and other websites?

I believe there is a difference between asking a question and being aggressive or confrontational. So, in answer to your own question, I pose a similar question to you: have you looked for this information on the web and been unsuccessful? I suggest Aikido Journal as a first stop.

By the way, I am instructor of aikido in Japan and I am hardly ever faced with questions of what the students who come to our dojo are seeking. I assume beforehand that they are seeking to train in the Japanese martial art that I am practicing and teaching. This is usually a good beginning.

Best wishes,

P Goldsbury

"In the end there can be only one"

www.AikidoFellowship.com
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Old 07-26-2009, 09:49 PM   #15
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

One teacher who was a direct student of Osensei once told me it seemed to him that in the west, more people are drawn to Aikido because of its philosophy while in Japan people are drawn to it as a martial art first. From that, we could infer that martial skill was the founder's primary draw for many of his students.
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Old 07-26-2009, 09:55 PM   #16
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

Thank you Shannon.
I did not read any aggression into Professor Goldsbury's question or Mary's clarification.
After his question I did do a search and read some of the interviews on Aikido Journal of O'Sensei's deshi. The ones I read were kind of vague. Not very much difference with a Googled search. So Aikiweb was the next choice.

David
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Old 07-26-2009, 09:57 PM   #17
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
One teacher who was a direct student of Osensei once told me it seemed to him that in the west, more people are drawn to Aikido because of its philosophy while in Japan people are drawn to it as a martial art first. From that, we could infer that martial skill was the founder's primary draw for many of his students.
Thank you Carl.

David
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Old 07-26-2009, 10:01 PM   #18
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

Apologies, but now I think you are being aggressive.

Anyway, here's my answer.

There is an excellent book by Stanley Pranin entitled, Aikido Masters: Prewar Students of Morihei Ueshiba. I believe that it is offered as a free gift to anyone who takes out a subscription to Aikido Journal. I am a friend of Stan Pranin and I support his work of disseminating accurate information about aikido and its history. Of course, I have bought the book.

Now I could spend a couple of hours going through this book and supplying the information in answer to your question, but (a) I think it would be unfair to Stan Pranin, who did the original research and (b) I do not have the time to do so at present, since I am busy researching and writing another column for Jun's website here.

While I do not object at all to people asking questions, I cannot accept any assumption that such questions have to be answered, and answered immediately. I do not think there is an automatic right to information, especially if it is readily available.

Best wishes,

P Goldsbury

Quote:
Shannon Frye wrote: View Post
Ok - let's set aside the aggression issue (perceived or otherwise).

Why is it that a question is questioned with another question?? Wouldn't an answer have been much simpler? I cannot speak for Davis, but I'll sure speak for myself... I have not researched this question, unless you count THIS forum as a first stop on a journey of knowledge. How do you expect to encourage members to pose questions or topics by telling them I to look somewhere else, and find the answer elsewhere?

By the way, as an Aikido, karate, and iaido instructor in America, I do take the time to make sure that I have something to offer everyone who honors me by being a student of mine. Perhaps this is a cultural thing, an aspect of Christian martial arts, or a benefit of having respectively smaller dojos (My classes are taught out of at 3 churches).

Can we please get away from answering someones question with yet another question? We appreciate your input - please honor us with it.

Respectfully,
Shannon

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 07-26-2009 at 10:04 PM.

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Old 07-26-2009, 10:04 PM   #19
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

Hello David,

Have you seen the book I just recommended in the previous post?

PAG

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Thank you Shannon.
I did not read any aggression into Professor Goldsbury's question or Mary's clarification.
After his question I did do a search and read some of the interviews on Aikido Journal of O'Sensei's deshi. The ones I read were kind of vague. Not very much difference with a Googled search. So Aikiweb was the next choice.

David

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Old 07-26-2009, 10:11 PM   #20
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

Peter,
Then I offer a sincere apology.

Shannon

[quote=Peter A Goldsbury;235790]Apologies, but now I think you are being aggressive.

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Old 07-26-2009, 10:20 PM   #21
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

Were Aikido people to purchase and read Stans three books;
"Aikido Masters-prewar students of Morihei Ueshiba"
"The Great Onisaburo Deguchi"
"Conversations with Daito Ryu masters"

They would come away being enriched by an incredible body of research that can no longer be duplicated- as it contains interview with the people who were there. I will also give you much to think about in how the art was created and where the two pillars of the founding of Aikido; Daito ryu and Omoto tie-together.
It may blow up some peoples assumptions, and "beliefs" reinforce others, but in general aid in having a broader knowledge to bring to the practice they love.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/catalog/?category=2

Check out Jun's interview of Stan here- it might be startling for some- who have believed that O-sensei was a master of multiple Koryu and that was the source of the founding of aikido. In short do your homework and you will be very glad you did. Really. Then come back and talk about it and flesh it out some more.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-26-2009 at 10:25 PM.
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Old 07-26-2009, 10:22 PM   #22
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Hello David,

Have you seen the book I just recommended in the previous post?

PAG
No, I haven't but I will purchase it next payday.

Thanks
David
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Old 07-26-2009, 10:26 PM   #23
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Were Aikido people to purchase and read Stans three books;
"Aikido Masters-prewar students of Morihei Ueshiba"
"The Great Onisaburo Deguchi"
"Conversations with Daito Ryu masters"

They would come away being enriched by an incredible body of research that can no longer be duplicated as it contains interview with the people who were there.
It will blow up some peoples assumptions, and "beliefs" reinforce others, and in general aid in having a broader knowledge to bring to the practice they love.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/catalog/?category=2

Check out Jun's interview of Stan here- it might be startling for some- who have believed that O-sensei was a master of multiple Koryu and that was the source of the founding of aikido. In short do your homework and you will be very glad you did. Really. Then come back and talk about it and flesh it out some more.
Cheers
Dan
All ready did a thread on it.
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...nterviews+Stan

Thanks Dan,

David
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Old 07-26-2009, 10:37 PM   #24
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

Your certainly welcome David.
Honestly, I think it will help broaden your views and help you understand where some of the people you have been talking "too" lately...are coming "from".
I am staying out of most of the discussions anymore, but when you point to some teachers who you believe are "all that" these books may help you realize how and why some of us do not reply at all. There is some truly powerful stuff out there, these books, taken as a whole will help you to see the nuance and have a greater balance and insight into the complexity of the debates of where Ueshiba came from and where he might have been pointing to.
*Note...read all three!
Good luck and enjoy...for you surely will.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 07-27-2009, 05:59 AM   #25
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

Quote:
Why is it that a question is questioned with another question?? Wouldn't an answer have been much simpler? I cannot speak for Davis, but I'll sure speak for myself........................ How do you expect to encourage members to pose questions or topics by telling them I to look somewhere else, and find the answer elsewhere?
Quote:
Cord: Do you answer every question with a question?
Blind Man: Do you question every answer?
Cord: Aww, talking to you is like talking to a wall.
Blind Man: Buddha once sat before a wall, and when he arose he was enlightened.
-Circle of Iron
Actually sometimes the best answer to a question is another question.It encourages us to think deeper and to search harder for the answers. The lesson is better learned when the answers have to be worked for.

It seems like our OP is learning to find the answers through the added questions posed to him by the other members. I hope he find what he is searching for.
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