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Old 04-06-2009, 01:23 PM   #1
Fox
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YouTube: Video of my Sensei doing randori

I always enjoy watching videos of multiples and I ran into a video of my sensei (Sensei Tan, 6th dan/shihan) doing randori with a few of his senior students. I thought I'd toss it up for anybody else who enjoys watching Aikidoka in action.

Daito Ryu Aiki-JuJutsu with Sensei Tan 7

p.s. forgive me if i misspelled or incorrectly named something, i'm very new to this and still trying to catch on to all the different terms.
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Old 04-06-2009, 04:18 PM   #2
Marc Abrams
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Re: YouTube: Video of my Sensei doing randori

Gary:

From your teacher's site:

Sensei Tan, 5th Dan Aikido, teaches the Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu form of Aikido.

This statement makes absolutely no sense at all. There is Daito-Ryu and there is Aikido. One is not the form of the other. I would be curious to know what Aikido organization he trains in and what Aikido organization gave him his rank. This is not to say that what he is doing does not work, but that what he states on his website contradicts reality.

Train Safe.

Marc Abrams
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Old 04-06-2009, 05:02 PM   #3
sorokod
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Re: YouTube: Video of my Sensei doing randori

There is also this ( http://www.tanaikidojo.com/html/History_Of_Aikido.html )

Quote:
Shortly after Doshu Kisshomaru Ueshiba's death, his son, Moriteru Ueshiba was named the Sandai (third) Doshu. Under his leadership, the number of students of Aikido is expected to grow.

Working with him is his son, Aikido Shihan Fumio Toyoda. Toyoda Shihan is a professional instructor at Aikido World Headquarters. He is actively engaged in training the next generation of shihan-level instructors and promoting Aikido instruction on the national level.

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Old 04-06-2009, 07:51 PM   #4
Fox
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Re: YouTube: Video of my Sensei doing randori

sorry about that i'm still new and trying to figure everything out but what i heard from one of his senior students is that he shows us both, it seems like the senior students are working on a lot of breaks and strikes while the lower ranking students, such as I, are working on aikido. Again i'm still trying to figure everything out here so bear with me if i get somethings mixed up
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Old 04-06-2009, 08:04 PM   #5
Marc Abrams
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Re: YouTube: Video of my Sensei doing randori

Gary:

You do not have to apologize for anything. The website of your instructor is misleading. The association between Toyoda sensei and Aikikai world headquarters is also misleading.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fumio_Toyoda

This link will give you a more accurate history. I have to tell you that I hope that your teacher is not aware of the "mistakes" on his website. Otherwise, red flags are beginning to emerge.

Marc Abrams
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Old 04-06-2009, 10:26 PM   #6
Michael Varin
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Re: YouTube: Video of my Sensei doing randori

Gary,

I realize that you are new to aikido, but if I may lend you some discernment, this video shows a fairly common problem with aikido randori. The uke make their attacks sequentially 95% of the time. They are providing opportunities to complete techniques that probably shouldn't be there. It basicly amounts to a series of one-on-ones that has nothing to do with controlling multiple attackers.

On the other hand, when uke attack simultaneously they will put a great deal more pressure on nage and create much more interesting situations. Techniques will have to adapt accordingly.

There are numerous instances in this short video, but 0:08 and 0:21 are the most illustrative. If the uke were acting together nage would likely have been smashed both times. At 0:31 uke do attack simultaneously, noticeably changing the "effectiveness" of nage's response, but they lack the intention to bring nage down.

Also, while I doubt that punching at a moving target is great idea, I know kicking at a moving target is a bad idea!

Out of curiosity, I searched YouTube after I wrote this post. Here were the first three videos that came up and a related video. They feature a 2nd kyu, presumably some dan-ranked practioner, and a 7th dan all showing the same problems.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpujsGWRkn4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtm0HOGFK9w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoziYiw7W1U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFz_L...eature=related (What was the significance of adding a fourth uke? Did it change anything other than giving more rest to the uke between attacks?)

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 04-07-2009, 03:43 PM   #7
Aikibu
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Re: YouTube: Video of my Sensei doing randori

Gary in my opinion that vid on Randori was pretty darn good Thanks for sharing it...Hopefully the Webmaster of your site will do some fact checking with Sensei Tran and clean up the site...Since you guys are in So-Cali perhaps I will pop in someday.

Welcome to Aiki-Web.

William Hazen
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Old 04-08-2009, 11:05 AM   #8
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Re: YouTube: Video of my Sensei doing randori

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Gary in my opinion that vid on Randori was pretty darn good

William Hazen
I disagree. Tori was always going back, never did any irimi, even once! This way he submitted himself to attackers' will, - they decided when and how to attack him. Tori didn't take control of space around him. Normally, against multiple attacks, tori must always go forward and choose next attacker, it will not only impose the correct rhythm, but will assure that simultaneous attack will not be possible.
While at 1st dan it can be OK, for 7th dan it is not acceptable.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 04-08-2009, 12:52 PM   #9
Aikibu
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Re: YouTube: Video of my Sensei doing randori

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
I disagree. Tori was always going back, never did any irimi, even once! This way he submitted himself to attackers' will, - they decided when and how to attack him. Tori didn't take control of space around him. Normally, against multiple attacks, tori must always go forward and choose next attacker, it will not only impose the correct rhythm, but will assure that simultaneous attack will not be possible.
While at 1st dan it can be OK, for 7th dan it is not acceptable.
I think you should watch again and then just to help me understand your point of view Post your own You Tube Randori Vid...

Let us know when we can view it.

William Hazen
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Old 04-09-2009, 08:21 PM   #10
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Re: YouTube: Video of my Sensei doing randori

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
I think you should watch again and then just to help me understand your point of view Post your own You Tube Randori Vid...

Let us know when we can view it.

William Hazen
no kidding, these are your all arguments in our disscussion?

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 04-10-2009, 09:40 AM   #11
Aikibu
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Re: YouTube: Video of my Sensei doing randori

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
no kidding, these are your all arguments in our disscussion?
Why yes... no kidding....Is there something wrong with asking you to give examples of your proper Randori?

It does not have to be you personally but an example would be nice....

William Hazen
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Old 04-10-2009, 10:05 AM   #12
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Re: YouTube: Video of my Sensei doing randori

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
I disagree. Tori was always going back, never did any irimi, even once! This way he submitted himself to attackers' will, - they decided when and how to attack him. Tori didn't take control of space around him. Normally, against multiple attacks, tori must always go forward and choose next attacker, it will not only impose the correct rhythm, but will assure that simultaneous attack will not be possible.
While at 1st dan it can be OK, for 7th dan it is not acceptable.
Hi Szczepan,
I agree that forward is the core of the randori movement patterns. What I teach is a bit more complex....We have identified three essential movement patterns for randori: working the centers, working the spaces, and working the edges. What you are describing here is what we call working the centers.

Working the centers is the most assertive movement pattern. It's what you describe above. Each movement nage makes is directly at the center of an attacker. It has the flavor of one person attacking three rather than the opposite. It is very energy intensive however.

We also train to "work the spaces". In this movement pattern nage's movement is away from or at least off the line of attack from a given uke. When there is enough space, this can result in the ukes chasing nage. This is the most energy efficient movement pattern as the ukes do most of the work of setting up the throw. We teach our students to mix up the movement patterns because no one pattern works well for very long. The ukes begin to coordinate better as they get the rhythm of the nage. Switching between movement patterns, every three throws or so helps keep the ukes from getting your rhythm.

Working the edges is used when the ukes get bunched together. Attempting to throw one of them will probably result in one or both of the others "glomming" onto to you. So you move to the outside edge of the group and bash the uke you are touching into the others. You do this continuously, pushing them together until one of them breaks out of the pack. Once one of the ukes is one step closer to you than the others, you cab break open the group by throwing them in opposite directions and go back to working the centers and working the spaces.

Randori is really about creating time. If you make an uke take a fall, he takes an extra 2 seconds or so to get back at you. If you throw an uke at another uke, he slows down and you have created more time. We teach that at least 75 or 80 % of your contacts need to result in a fall. Also, unless you are in the process of breaking up a contracted pack of ukes, each person you throw should get in the way of another attacker. In other words, the person you are currently touching is a weapon against another attacker. None of the video clips showed this aspect well. Peter Bernath's had him throwing each partner into a space. We would throw each one at one of the others. This was probably due to safety concerns. You have to train the ukes to do randori like this. If they are not REALLY aware, they can get clobbered. So most folks choose not to train that way. I choose to train the ukes to see what throw is developing and move to safety accordingly.

To sum up:
1) change movement patterns every three or four throws
2) your throws must result in a fall most of the time and the techniques you use should throw on the first beat of the contact.
3) each person you throw or drop should impede the attack of another uke.

There some other principles we throw in but these are the core.

- George

George S. Ledyard
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Old 04-10-2009, 11:09 AM   #13
George S. Ledyard
 
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Randori Movement Principles - Explanations

Here are some clips illustrating the movement principles we teach in randori.

Explanation of Working the Centers

Working the Centers - medium speed example

Working the Spaces - Explanation

Working the Edges - explanation

I hope this is useful. If anyone finds this helpful. I do have a CD-R which is a PowerPoint outline of these principles available (the clips are from that CD-R). It has to be viewed on a PC and is designed to take a lap top to the edge of the mat and work off it.

Randori Video Manual

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
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Old 04-10-2009, 11:36 AM   #14
Don_Modesto
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Re: Randori Movement Principles - Explanations

Beyond the cogency and clarity of his writing, you will see Ledyard Sensei demonstrate these concepts in discrete increments at his seminars. The most amazing demonstrations and teaching I've seen. He takes the RAN out of RANDORI.

Don J. Modesto
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Old 04-10-2009, 11:40 AM   #15
Aikibu
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Re: Randori Movement Principles - Explanations

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Here are some clips illustrating the movement principles we teach in randori.

Explanation of Working the Centers

Working the Centers - medium speed example

Working the Spaces - Explanation

Working the Edges - explanation

I hope this is useful. If anyone finds this helpful. I do have a CD-R which is a PowerPoint outline of these principles available (the clips are from that CD-R). It has to be viewed on a PC and is designed to take a lap top to the edge of the mat and work off it.

Randori Video Manual
Now that's what I am talking about! Thanks Sensei Ledyard.

William Hazen
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Old 04-10-2009, 04:09 PM   #16
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Re: YouTube: Video of my Sensei doing randori

Thanks Ledyard Sensei for posting those vids! I agree 110%!

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Old 04-11-2009, 09:38 AM   #17
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Re: YouTube: Video of my Sensei doing randori

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Hi Szczepan,
I agree that forward is the core of the randori movement patterns. What I teach is a bit more complex....We have identified three essential movement patterns for randori: working the centers, working the spaces, and working the edges. What you are describing here is what we call working the centers.

- George
Hi George,
That is exactly what I expected from William, but looks he has no clue about it.

I agree at two of your concepts: working the centers, and working the edges with some restrictions.

However, working the spaces, is only possible when uke are attacking in row and not simultaneously, so in reality it is useless. Also even if they attack in row but fast and from different direction, after few throws tori is kaput, he will miss the space to going back. Also, more important, this is against of Founder teaching (aikido is irimi and atemi) So I think it must be forbiden to practice that way.

Going back to previous two concepts, it is true that tori must establish special rhythm, but on more sophisticated level, this rhythm will be broken sometimes to create some illusion in the mind of attacker. I liked your explanations about special angles that tori must respect when he moves between attackers, but this must come naturally, and should not be learned by heart. The same restriction is to train ukes for pattern working the edges. I think it is absolutely wrong to train uke like a dogs of Pavlov. It seems to me that because of such training, the martial aspect of practice is lost.

My understanding is that from one side, tori have to experience very high intensity, high physical and mental pressure (uke's job is to really put down tori and pin him as fast as possible, not only to barely touch him in friendly way) - and it is only possible when attackers do simultaneous attack. It physically forces tori to find the best angles of movement and this way he can develop a real 'feeling' of space around him and a 'feeling' of the intent of attackers.
As attackers move constantly around nage, the angles can't be defined precisely, it is dynamic interaction. So nage must feel inconciously where to move.

In the other hand, uke has to expect EVERYTHING. He must be ready to save his health/life, by doing ukemi. If you train him, he will develop some automation that is very dangerous, and will react as a robot. He will never feel intent of Nage.

If a student don’t feel the intent, he can’t face even a single attacker. Particularly it is true, while being attacked from behind.
So whole goal of jiu waza is missing.

Nagababa

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Old 04-11-2009, 10:23 PM   #18
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: YouTube: Video of my Sensei doing randori

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post

However, working the spaces, is only possible when uke are attacking in row and not simultaneously, so in reality it is useless. Also even if they attack in row but fast and from different direction, after few throws tori is kaput, he will miss the space to going back. Also, more important, this is against of Founder teaching (aikido is irimi and atemi) So I think it must be forbiden to practice that way.
Szczepan,
I think there is a misconception here about what I mean and how we use it. We use it all the time and it works well. But I'd have to show you what I mean, video won't necessarily do it. You need to see it live when the decisions are spontaneous.

As for the issue of "irimi"... "irimi" is inherent in proper rotation, it is not limited to forward movement only. I can "enter" while stepping back. It has to do with proper neutral pivot points and such. None of which I can explain well in a written forum. I could attempt some diagrams but past experience would indicate that my skills as an artist are less than dubious.

Anyway, I think we are basically on the same page. I will say that, part of the "working the spaces" principles has to do with getting the individual lines of attack from each attacker to intersect so that they either bash into each other or decelerate their attack by avoiding the collisions. In other words I can simply move myself to a spot at which the attackers will meet each other before they get to me. We teach this and practice it and it works quite nicely. Anyway, thanks for the input. If we meet some time I can show you what I meant.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 04-12-2009, 09:12 AM   #19
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Re: YouTube: Video of my Sensei doing randori

Dear Mr. Ledyard,

I'm not an aikidoka, but I really enjoyed your heiho for dealing with multiple opponents. It is the most reasonable explaination of what is going on and many aikidoka would benifit from this if they read it. Keep up the good work and thank you for your sharing this gem of budo.

Best regards,

Chris Covington
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Old 04-12-2009, 10:38 PM   #20
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Re: YouTube: Video of my Sensei doing randori

Here is a quick 30 sec video of me. My randori certainly is not the best in the world and I would like it to be better. But I am a firm believer in always attacking and moving towards uke to take center and not waiting for him to come.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0SfgAOvIDc

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Old 04-13-2009, 07:47 AM   #21
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Re: YouTube: Video of my Sensei doing randori

I like the aliveness in your approach.
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Old 04-13-2009, 11:23 AM   #22
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Re: YouTube: Video of my Sensei doing randori

Kevin,

I really liked your video.

Here is an old video (from 2004) of me on my sankyu test. I was (and am) just a beginner, but I enjoyed the video at the time. Now I am probably better than this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMc3a1coKkQ
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Old 04-13-2009, 02:49 PM   #23
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Re: YouTube: Video of my Sensei doing randori

Here a good randori. Probably one of the better ones that I have seen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdykCWZOBLQ&NR=1
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Old 04-13-2009, 03:59 PM   #24
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: YouTube: Video of my Sensei doing randori

Thanks Salim. I do like to keep it alive. One of my downfalls though is that I tend to start getting tied up with an uke and the begin to fix me as I get tired and I want to grapple and fight. That is something I have to work on.

I think Ledyard Sensei's approach is a good one. I have the attacking the center thing down pretty decently, but need to learn work the edges and spaces a little better.

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Old 04-14-2009, 01:45 AM   #25
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Re: YouTube: Video of my Sensei doing randori

This is fantastic. Thanks for posting videos, guys. This kind of openness really helps the discussion.

Bruno,

That was nice. I like the way the uke came at you. That is precisely what was missing in the original video, the ones I added, and so many others. You probably could have treated the group more as one thing, but every one of us has room for improvement.

Salim,

While I love the free-wheeling nature of that dojo, there is TOO much waiting going on for me to say that is one of the better randori I have seen.

Kevin,

The first word that came to mind was "clashing." Those are cooperative uke and you do not demonstrate an ability to move in a way that is appropriate to the situation. Towards the end, they were hesitant to attack -- they looked scared of you. You can be in an active state, i.e. not waiting, without "attacking." I would venture a guess that had your uke been as aggressive as you and made a coordinated three-man attack your clashing would have cost you.

By the way, that is a beautiful dojo.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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