Tattoos (in General)

Just to be contrarian, I must say I find tattoos to be completely pointless at best, and I believe a truly centered person has no need for them or interest in them. They do speak to the emotional maturity and enlightenment of the bearer. And, despite the fact that I am not the least bit religious, I have to wonder if any mortal artist is worthy to paint on God's canvas.

Dan Austin wrote: Just to be contrarian, I must say I find tattoos to be completely pointless at best, and I believe a truly centered person has no need for them or interest in them. They do speak to the emotional maturity and enlightenment of the bearer. And, despite the fact that I am not the least bit religious, I have to wonder if any mortal artist is worthy to paint on God's canvas.

ouch, I hate when people are "not the least bit religious" and then go and quote something about God. It kind of nullifies the point they were trying to make in the first place..

Any who...back to topic..

I am planning on getting an aikido related tattoo.. to mark my accomplishments and hard work, I just haven't found the design that I would like to get quite yet.

Trish Greene wrote: ouch, I hate when people are "not the least bit religious" and then go and quote something about God. It kind of nullifies the point they were trying to make in the first place.. Any who...back to topic.. I am planning on getting an aikido related tattoo.. to mark my accomplishments and hard work, I just haven't found the design that I would like to get quite yet.

Sorry, but it's true. I'm usually reminded of this thought when I see an attractive woman with a tattoo, at which point the world's greatest tattoo artist may as well be a kid with a can of spray paint. If you're attractive, it's a blemish, and if you're not, it doesn't make you any more so. If you don't get a tattoo, are you going to forget about Aikido? Why not put an A on your forehead, so you can think about Aikido every time you brush your teeth or put your makeup on? And get a bone through your nose with some feathers attached and a lip plate while you're at it to show everyone what an interesting, enlightened, confident, and free-thinking individual you are.

Dan Austin wrote: Sorry, but it's true. I'm usually reminded of this thought when I see an attractive woman with a tattoo, at which point the world's greatest tattoo artist may as well be a kid with a can of spray paint. If you're attractive, it's a blemish, and if you're not, it doesn't make you any more so. If you don't get a tattoo, are you going to forget about Aikido? Why not put an A on your forehead, so you can think about Aikido every time you brush your teeth or put your makeup on? And get a bone through your nose with some feathers attached and a lip plate while you're at it to show everyone what an interesting, enlightened, confident, and free-thinking individual you are.

I guess Beauty is in the eye of the beholder at this point. An attractive women to you is one with inner confidence that radiates to her external being, without the trappings of makeup or jewelry or tattoos or stylish complementary clothes? With everything that you put on your body, permanent or non-permanent, you makes a statement about who you are. I really don't think God cares about what you are wearing, I think He cares about where your heart is.Where your heart is (internal radiance) is what will reflect what is on the outside.

Early this morning I dreamed I was at a potluck under a picnic tent when a white donkey appeared and started eating off the tables.
"Hey!" I yelled, as I grappled with the donkey; "does anyone know
who this belongs to?! Does it have a brand?! "(tattoo). And when I woke up, the donkey and this thread were gone.

In gassho,

Mark

Mark Uttech wrote: Early this morning I dreamed I was at a potluck under a picnic tent when a white donkey appeared and started eating off the tables. "Hey!" I yelled, as I grappled with the donkey; "does anyone know who this belongs to?! Does it have a brand?! "(tattoo). And when I woke up, the donkey and this thread were gone. In gassho, Mark

What an ass! Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha.

In Gosh-Oh-My Side,
Jen

(Just in case it isn't obvious, this is also a joke.)

Trish Greene wrote: I guess Beauty is in the eye of the beholder at this point. An attractive women to you is one with inner confidence that radiates to her external being, without the trappings of makeup or jewelry or tattoos or stylish complementary clothes? With everything that you put on your body, permanent or non-permanent, you makes a statement about who you are. I really don't think God cares about what you are wearing, I think He cares about where your heart is.Where your heart is (internal radiance) is what will reflect what is on the outside.

Fine. So what is the point of the tattoo then? I can't speak for God, if there is such a being, and it's up to Christians to rationalize ignoring what the bible says about tattoos. I'm not a social conservative either, I'm all for gay people getting married, etc. The question is the thought process of getting a tattoo. If Ueshiba is the light of my life, I would be content to keep that information to myself until such time as it arises in conversation. It's dubious to claim that it's a deeply personal thing, and yet I have to display a tattoo of an old man on my body for the world to see (or a few people to see, depending on where it is). It's a deliberate call for attention or lack of thoughtfulness, and the reasons for that are what people will wonder about when they see a tattoo. In many people's experience, there is a significant correlation between emotional immaturity, lack of centeredness and true confidence in oneself, or whatever you want to call it, and things like getting tattoos. For example there's a reason that most of the people you see stretching their earlobes and getting lots of facebolts are teenagers. Body modification is simply a matter of degree. Life is somewhat cruel in that wisdom comes later than when you can best take advantage of it, but teenagers thinking stretching earlobes is "cool" is because they're immature teenagers. It takes a long time for some people to grow up and realize that the only statement such things make is that that person may have some issues.

Women who want to be cool and trendy may not realize the impact of getting a tattoo in terms of how many men will view them. Many men think, hey, if she's willing to do something pointless and cavalier with her body, maybe she'll do other pointless and cavalier things with it, like going home with me after a few drinks. There's a reason tattoos on women are often called "tramp stamps". There is enough of a statistical correlation between casual attitudes about sex and getting a tattoo that men have picked up on this. It's similar to smoking, if she smokes AND has a tattoo, your odds of a one-nighter are even better. Unfortunately for women who enjoy this sort of attention, it puts them further from the "take seriously" category into the "pump and dump" category. Of course they can always find partners who are festooned with tattoos as well - who may themselves be more likely to be difficult longterm partners due to the mentality that lead to them being festooned with pointless body art. For anyone vacillating on the subject, I would strongly suggest a less permanent attention call to a particular developmental phase along the road to adulthood, but to each his own.

Which Woman?
Which Japanese?
Which Culture?
Which God?
Which Man?

www.larskrutak.com/ articles/Ainu/02a.jpg

Of course tatoos have been around for thousands of years and have played an important role in/as rituals for many cultures.

A friend of mine has a sister who operates a tattoo salon/museum in Fort Bragg, CA. She and her partner have traveled the world over studying the history of tattoos in different cultures. They spent quite a bit of time in Japan in fact and have collected quite a bit of information and tattooing artifacts from that region.

She wrote a book sometime back on the history of tattoos. I can't remember the name, I've got a copy somewhere that she gave me. Anyway...a wonderful woman she is. A beautiful woman and she is tattoed head to toe.

Since it was brought up by a recent poster I feel compelled to add my thoughts on the beauty of women. Pretty much being female is all it takes and even that is not a steadfast rule in my book.

I always identified with a Sean Connery quote from an interview years back. He was asked what he finds most beautiful in a woman and he replied that he found something beautiful in most women.

Back to the ritualistic use of tattoos...It is fairly universally accepted that American culture is lacking in a "deepness" which allows people to feel more connected to each other, the earth, the 'verse - as they say in Firefly - or what have you.

Thus it is not uncommon for folks in the USA - maybe other western nations as well - to seek out methods and means to further their connection/acknowledgement of the mystery of life.

Good stuff as far as I'm concerned. Anything to break free of the "lust for duty" as McClure so aptly put it in his masterpiece, "Beginning with a line by Di Prima".

Alright...I know this is not the poetry thread but I can't help myself...Just a few lines from the beginning of that piece....

Beginning With a Line By Di Prima

"The only war that matters is the war against the imagination!" The only love that shatters is the love of depondance and horror. The only honor that shines is the one that smashes the lust for duty.

Wow!!! I haven't read that for years. Great stuff. Great stuff...

So people search and try to connect to some meaning...purpose...to balance the incessant drive of intellect with a deep breath of, of, of...who knows what...a poem, a sculpture, a painting, a rock formation, the movement of an insect along a leaf.

Tattoos...Yep. I'm for them. Beauty...Yep. I'm for that too.

I meant to give you a picture, too.
Here it is. All 14 blocks long of an address but....

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...h=961&w=642&sz.

There is nothing new about pre-judging people by the pigmentation of their skin. In some cases, for whatever reason, that pigment was added voluntarily. Like less permanent body ornamentation (crucifixes, kippah skullcaps, dhotis, turbans etc), we should endeavour to respect and understand people's differences, whether they are inherent and unchangeable or elective expressions of that person's culture or beliefs.

Respect and understanding are things I have felt a lot of in Japan, despite having a significantly different ethnic and cultural background from the norm. My tattoos have been no trouble at all in aikido. We have at least one tattooed Japanese girl in the dojo too.

Dan Austin:
First:
This claim needs some evidence to sand up to any scrutiny:

Dan Austin wrote: They (tattoos) do speak to the emotional maturity and enlightenment of the bearer.

Also what criteron are we going to use to determine 'emotional maturity'(which will generate an entirely different argument) If you have evidence present it. I suspect that you don't and all anyone has to do is find ONE instance to falsify your absolute claim. So you must either revise it or abandon it.

Dan Austin wrote: And, despite the fact that I am not the least bit religious, I have to wonder if any mortal artist is worthy to paint on God's canvas.

Dan Austin wrote: Fine. So what is the point of the tattoo then? I can't speak for God, if there is such a being, and it's up to Christians to rationalize ignoring what the bible says about tattoos. I'm not a social conservative either, I'm all for gay people getting married, etc. The question is the thought process of getting a tattoo. If Ueshiba is the light of my life, I would be content to keep that information to myself until such time as it arises in conversation. It's dubious to claim that it's a deeply personal thing, and yet I have to display a tattoo of an old man on my body for the world to see (or a few people to see, depending on where it is). It's a deliberate call for attention or lack of thoughtfulness, and the reasons for that are what people will wonder about when they see a tattoo. In many people's experience, there is a significant correlation between emotional immaturity, lack of centeredness and true confidence in oneself, or whatever you want to call it, and things like getting tattoos. For example there's a reason that most of the people you see stretching their earlobes and getting lots of facebolts are teenagers. Body modification is simply a matter of degree. Life is somewhat cruel in that wisdom comes later than when you can best take advantage of it, but teenagers thinking stretching earlobes is "cool" is because they're immature teenagers. It takes a long time for some people to grow up and realize that the only statement such things make is that that person may have some issues. Women who want to be cool and trendy may not realize the impact of getting a tattoo in terms of how many men will view them. Many men think, hey, if she's willing to do something pointless and cavalier with her body, maybe she'll do other pointless and cavalier things with it, like going home with me after a few drinks. There's a reason tattoos on women are often called "tramp stamps". There is enough of a statistical correlation between casual attitudes about sex and getting a tattoo that men have picked up on this. It's similar to smoking, if she smokes AND has a tattoo, your odds of a one-nighter are even better. Unfortunately for women who enjoy this sort of attention, it puts them further from the "take seriously" category into the "pump and dump" category. Of course they can always find partners who are festooned with tattoos as well - who may themselves be more likely to be difficult longterm partners due to the mentality that lead to them being festooned with pointless body art. For anyone vacillating on the subject, I would strongly suggest a less permanent attention call to a particular developmental phase along the road to adulthood, but to each his own.

I apologize for the jacked up quoting in the last post.

Dan Austin wrote: And, despite the fact that I am not the least bit religious, I have to wonder if any mortal artist is worthy to paint on God's canvas.

We house great works of art within all kinds of houses of worship, and we might even call some of those halls works of art. We decorate the inside and outside of those buildings with sculpture, paint, tapestries, and whatnot. If my body is a temple what is the difference between an awe inspiring stained glass window and a Slayer tattoo on my chest (I don't have one, but Slayer is pretty friggn badass, and yes I can give you evidence). It is merely decoration.

Dan Austin wrote: In many people's experience, there is a significant correlation between emotional immaturity, lack of centeredness and true confidence in oneself, or whatever you want to call it, and things like getting tattoos

Trying to make a universal statement without actually committing to it. Who are these people that you say feel this way? Can we talk to them? See them? Back your claims up with some evidence, that is all ask. Also, define this centeredness that these people lack.

And about the women issue, do you have any evidence for this? It seems like you want to speak like you are an expert on those who decide, for whatever reason, to engage in 'body modification' (tattoos, scarification, peircing, brandings, etc.) but are not willing to share any of your evidence with us. This suggests to me that you don't know a whole lot of folks with tattoos.

Isaac Bettis wrote: We house great works of art within all kinds of houses of worship, and we might even call some of those halls works of art. We decorate the inside and outside of those buildings with sculpture, paint, tapestries, and whatnot. If my body is a temple what is the difference between an awe inspiring stained glass window and a Slayer tattoo on my chest (I don't have one, but Slayer is pretty friggn badass, and yes I can give you evidence). It is merely decoration.

The "body is a temple" line comes from the biblical "Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received form God? You are not your own; and you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body."

If you aren't the owner of your body, I don't see how deciding to brand yourself with a heavy metal tattoo honors God, but even people who call themselves Christians will make excuses for what they want to do. You may not be a Christian, so that point may be irrelevant to you, but I'm supposed to debate emotional maturity with someone who says he can "give evidence" that "Slayer is pretty friggn badass"? I think I'll have to pass. Thank you for providing another data point of correlation. Again, to each his own, and until you are beyond the need for such things you won't understand why not everyone thinks tattoos are cool or that they say positive things about the bearer. Enough said. Everyone has the right to expect that their freedom to make choices is respected, but not that the choices themselves must be.

Dan Austin wrote: Again, to each his own

Could've stopped there, yeah?

Dan Austin wrote: , and until you are beyond the need for such things you won't understand why not everyone thinks tattoos are cool or that they say positive things about the bearer.

For me it's not really about being "beyond the need for such things". There's not really a "need" at all. I look at my tattoo the same way that I look at my scars. In my experience, most people with tattoos have a story behind them, whether they choose to share it or not.

Dan Austin wrote: Fine. So what is the point of the tattoo then? I can't speak for God, if there is such a being, and it's up to Christians to rationalize ignoring what the bible says about tattoos. I'm not a social conservative either, I'm all for gay people getting married, etc. The question is the thought process of getting a tattoo.

But you don't know what "the thought process of getting a tattoo is", and you wouldn't know if you had ink on every square inch of your body. All you know, at most, is your own reasons for doing or not doing.

Dan Austin wrote: In many people's experience, there is a significant correlation between emotional immaturity, lack of centeredness and true confidence in oneself, or whatever you want to call it, and things like getting tattoos.

Cite please? Something other than anecdotal impressions.

Dan Austin wrote: teenagers thinking stretching earlobes is "cool" is because they're immature teenagers. It takes a long time for some people to grow up and realize that the only statement such things make is that that person may have some issues.

Dan, you really need to learn the difference between inference and implication. What you're writing is all about the former and nothing of the latter.

Dan Austin wrote: Women who want to be cool and trendy may not realize the impact of getting a tattoo in terms of how many men will view them. Many men think, hey, if she's willing to do something pointless and cavalier with her body, maybe she'll do other pointless and cavalier things with it, like going home with me after a few drinks. There's a reason tattoos on women are often called "tramp stamps".

Wow, this certainly took a turn for the ugly. When you say "many men will view them" and "many men think", are you in fact talking about anyone's attitude but your own? And is it an attitude to be proud of?

Dan Austin wrote: There is enough of a statistical correlation between casual attitudes about sex and getting a tattoo that men have picked up on this.

Great, a statistical correlation! So, you can provide a cite, right?

Dan Austin wrote: It's similar to smoking, if she smokes AND has a tattoo, your odds of a one-nighter are even better.

Again..exactly who is it who thinks this? Who takes this demeaning and disparaging attitude towards others?

Dan Austin wrote: Unfortunately for women who enjoy this sort of attention, it puts them further from the "take seriously" category into the "pump and dump" category.

Who puts them in that category?

Use "I" statements...use "I" statements...

Tattoos and body piercings in the United States: a national data set.

J Am Acad Dermatol. 2006; 55(3):413-21 (ISSN: 1097-6787)

Laumann AE; Derick AJ

Section of Dermatology, University of Chicago, USA. a-laumann@northwestern.edu

"Other associations were a lack of religious affiliation, extended jail time, previous drinking, and recreational drug use."

"CONCLUSION: Tattooing and body piercing are associated with risk-taking activities. Body piercing has a high incidence of medical complications."

----------------

Unattractive, promiscuous and heavy drinkers: perceptions of women with tattoos.

Body Image. 2007; 4(4):343-52 (ISSN: 1873-6807)

Swami V; Furnham A

Division of Public Health, University of Liverpool, Whelan Building, Quadrangle, Brownlow Hill, Liverpool L69 3GB, United Kingdom. virenswami@hotmail.com

This study examined social and physical perceptions of blonde and brunette women with different degrees of tattooing. Eighty-four female and 76 male undergraduates rated a series of 16 female line drawings that varied in 2 levels of hair colour and 8 levels of tattooing. Ratings were made for physical attractiveness and sexual promiscuity, as well as estimates of the number of alcohol units consumed on a typical night out. Results showed that tattooed women were rated as less physically attractive, more sexually promiscuous and heavier drinkers than untattooed women, with more negative ratings with increasing number of tattoos. There were also weak interactions between body art and hair colour, with blonde women in general rated more negatively than brunettes. Results are discussed in terms of stereotypes about women who have tattoos and the effects of such stereotypes on well-being.
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Tattoos can harm perceptions: a study and suggestions.

J Am Coll Health. 2008; 56(5):593-6 (ISSN: 0744-8481)

Resenhoeft A; Villa J; Wiseman D

Psychology Department, Brookdale Community College, Lincroft, NJ 07738, USA.

OBJECTIVE: Health researchers have claimed that perceptions toward a person with a tattoo are more negative than are perceptions toward nontattooed persons. However, support for this has been obtained almost completely by nonexperimental research. PARTICIPANTS: In 2 experiments with 158 community college student participants, the authors found that tattoos harmed perceptions. METHODS: Students viewed a photograph of a female model with and without a visible tattoo, and rated her on 13 personal characteristics. RESULTS: In Experiment 1, ratings of a model with a dragon tattoo were significantly more negative (p < .05) on 5 of the 13 personal characteristics than were ratings of the same model shown without the tattoo. In Experiment 2, which included different participants, a different model, and a different tattoo, the authors found that a dolphin tattoo led to more negative ratings on 2 of the 13 characteristics. CONCLUSIONS: The authors discuss possible impacts of tattoos on person perception as well as implications of the results for college student healthcare providers.
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And this one is just for amusement:

Modern tattoos cause high concentrations of hazardous pigments in skin.

Contact Dermatitis. 2008; 58(4):228-33 (ISSN: 1600-0536)

Engel E; Santarelli F; Vasold R; Maisch T; Ulrich H; Prantl L; König B; Landthaler M; Bäumler W

Department of Organic Chemistry, University of Regensburg, 93042 Regensburg, Germany.

BACKGROUND: Modern tattoo colourants frequently consist of azo pigments that not only contain multiple impurities but also are originally produced for car paint and the dyeing of consumer goods. OBJECTIVE: In order to be able to assess the health risk of tattoos, it is important to determine the pigment concentration in human skin. METHODS: We tattooed excised pigskin and human skin with a common tattoo pigment (Pigment Red 22) under various conditions. After tattooing, we quantitatively extracted the pigment in order to determine the pigment concentration in skin. RESULTS: The concentration of pigments ranged from about 0.60 to 9.42 mg/cm(2) of tattooed skin (mean value 2.53 mg/cm(2)) depending upon the size of the pigment crystals, the pigment concentration applied to the skin surface, and the respective procedure of tattooing. CONCLUSION: In conclusion, high concentrations of colourants are injected into the skin during tattooing and based upon this quantification, a risk assessment of tattooing ought to be carried out.

------

Yes, injecting yourself with pigments intended for use in automotive paint is quite sensible, yes indeed. A true sign of a mature, thoughtful outlook in life. There are many more studies (as if this is really necessary), for example those that show health care providers think more negatively about patients with tattoos, which affects the quality of healthcare. The bottom line is tattoos are more prevalent among the lesser educated, the younger, people who engage in risky behavior (sex, drugs), have done time, etc., and this is why people who see someone with a tattoo make the natural calculation that this person is statistically more likely to be some form of nitwit, slut, loser, ne'er do well or what have you. It's worth pondering the reasons why this association exists, what qualities the young, lesser educated, foolish, and troubled have in common, and why they're more likely to think tattoos are a good idea. I think I already did that, and whether you call it a lack of emotional maturity, lack of centeredness, dissatisfaction with aspects of their life, or what have you, it's one of those things that really shouldn't need to be explained. There is no sensible reason to "express oneself" with a tattoo, there are only foolish reasons.

With regard to Aikido-related tattoos, either you're not particularly good at Aikido, in which case getting a martial arts tattoo is doubly laughable, or else perhaps you're exceptional, in which case what you do on the mat will show Aikido's place in your life by the evident fruit of thousands of hours of blood and sweat. Similarly, if you want to show how much your wife means to you, be a better husband instead of getting her name on your arm. If you absolutely love a particular band, get a guitar and learn all their songs. Invest yourself in your passions, not in meaningless ink about your passions. If you still feel an irresistible urge to display these things for other people, you can always get a nice collection of T-shirts.

Finally, for those who have tattoos already, all is not lost, and a mature perspective is always within reach. It's possible to get to a point in life where you can look at them and honestly say without embarrassment, yes, of course it was a dumb idea, but there they are, and who hasn't done dumb things in life?

Please click on this link.
http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/body...ighlights.html

I went to this very awesome and inspiring installation at the New York City Museum of Natural History. Very educational and intriguing.......Everyone should visit the museum.

Tats are cool with me though I don't have any. But like punk music which defined my generation (the 70's yes I am OG) what happens when something that espresses a person's spirit and personality gets sucked up by the mass culture meme?

Good Tats are like Art...Bad Tats are like Ads...and I guess thats left up to the eye of the beholder.

Theres nothing I like more than a beautiful woman whose Tats express what kind of spirit she is.

WIlliam Hazen

Dan Austin wrote: The bottom line is tattoos are more prevalent among the lesser educated, the younger, people who engage in risky behavior (sex, drugs), have done time, etc., and this is why people who see someone with a tattoo make the natural calculation that this person is statistically more likely to be some form of nitwit, slut, loser, ne'er do well or what have you.

Whoa... that's a bit of a gross generalization. Tattooing, as a body art, has been an integral part of many cultures as far back as 3300BC. Whilst it *may* be true that *some* people *may* tend to associate tattoos with certain undesirable elements in society, I'm not sure how you can take the "religious" stance whilst judging people on how they choose to adorn their body with impregnated pigmentation dye. Seems... hypocritical... to me.

As an aside, I love how the Japanese have taken the art of tattooing from wood block printing to an artform using the body as a canvas... as depicted in some of these excellent and intricately detailed works pictured in these:
http://www.amazon.com/Tattoos-Floati.../dp/9074822452
http://www.amazon.com/Bushido-Legaci...d_bxgy_b_img_b
http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Tatto...d_bxgy_b_img_b

Now... did someone mention "branding"? Now that's an extreme body art!

Dan Austin wrote: If you aren't the owner of your body, I don't see how deciding to brand yourself with a heavy metal tattoo honors God, but even people who call themselves Christians will make excuses for what they want to do. You may not be a Christian, so that point may be irrelevant to you, but I'm supposed to debate emotional maturity with someone who says he can "give evidence" that "Slayer is pretty friggn badass"? I think I'll have to pass.

No I am not a Christian (but the frontman for Slayer is) and I do think that I own my own body. First, just to be thorough I will show you what evidence I have for my claim that Slayer is indeed 'badass'. Dont worry it wont take long. By 'badass' I mean having or showing a very high level of technical ability in a specailzed field, such as to say 'Jet Li's kicks are badass (or well executed)' or 'Evil Kenivel was such a badass (he could do things with a motorcycle others could not even imigane). This is obviously not the only usage of the term, and if you take issue with my definition that is a diffrent discussion entirely. There can be little argument that the members of Slayer have great technical ability. Listen to Reign in Blood and that will become apparrent. Also this has been documented by music critics (Wikipedia Article) . Futhermore, Slayer is not a heavy metal band, it is a thrash metal band.

Dan Austin wrote: Thank you for providing another data point of correlation.

What data point did I provide? The one that shows there is a guy out there who likes Slayer and likes to hassle people who make bad arguments? Well thats a fact, I like to hassle people who make bad arguments.

Dan Austin wrote: Again, to each his own, and until you are beyond the need for such things you won't understand why not everyone thinks tattoos are cool or that they say positive things about the bearer. Enough said. Everyone has the right to expect that their freedom to make choices is respected, but not that the choices themselves must be.

I do 'understand' why some people take issue with tattoos, to the degree that I realize that it can be a religious issue, a social taboo and sometimes just downright prejudice (along with some other reasons I am sure). All these are fine, for I have my own set of prejudices against different groups, I just think mine are 'better' (this was meant sarcastically, sure everybody has prejudices but I am not really trying to assert that mine are 'better' although some of our prejudices can serve us well). And what does it mean to be 'beyond the need of such things'? What things? I don't 'need' anything but food, water, and some protection from the elements. Everything else for all of us is just window dressing.

Also to suggest that you won't define your terms based on the belief of the person questioning them is B.S. The question is just as legitimate if I ask it or if a person who listens to jazz or opera. The two things have nothing to do with one another. If I were to say that Miles Davis was a badass and was willing to back it up would you have responded the same way? What about Wagner or Nina Simone, all of who I do indeed think were badasses. I used the Slayer refrence mostly because when people think of metalheads they often think of men and women with tattoos. Imagery of the folks that listen to Wagner is not the same. To suggest that you will not define your position based on some unrelated fact about me suggests that you are unable to defend your position. If that is the case just admit it, everybody holds positions that they are unable to defend. What I take issue with here is your suggestion that you won't defend your position based on the person questioning it. Arguments do not rely on the men making them, they stand or fall on their own merits.

peace,
bettis

One more thing Dan. All of your case studies reference OTHER peoples perceptions about folks with/without tattoos. They say nothing to support your claim in post #7 that:

Dan Austin wrote: there is a significant correlation between emotional immaturity, lack of centeredness and true confidence in oneself, or whatever you want to call it, and things like getting tattoos

These studies engage peoples beliefs about tattooed people, as opposed to tattooed people and their 'maturity' or 'centeredness' in general. I can see how you could confuse these things but they are not logically the same.

Dan Austin wrote: The bottom line is

I am never impressed by anyone who attempts to assert his or her ownership of the truth by making statements about what "the bottom line" is.

I've been avoiding this thread like the plague...

Now, after reading it, I know why...

Best,
Ron

Mary Malmros wrote: I am never impressed by anyone who attempts to assert his or her ownership of the truth by making statements about what "the bottom line" is.

And I'm not impressed with people who don't have a real argument and resort to pseudo-pithy one-liners. The statement you're referring to ("The bottom line is tattoos are more prevalent among the lesser educated, the younger, people who engage in risky behavior (sex, drugs), have done time, etc.," is a fact backed by studies. I shouldn't have to explain that that doesn't mean that everyone with a tattoo falls into those categories automatically, only that there is a real correlation which makes the negative view of a tattooed person not simply a matter of blind prejudice. The natural question, "why did the person feel the need to get a tattoo?", is where you can do your deep thinking.

It would be a waste of time to repeat myself further, so I'll leave the tattoo fans to their own designs, as it were. Best of luck.