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Old 04-03-2008, 01:33 PM   #1
JAMJTX
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Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

This thought is something that has been bouncing around in my head for some time. It came to surface again, triggered by a thread on a Yoshinkan board.

The thread described a seminar by a senior teacher who demonstrated a technique where atleast 2 uke picked him up. He then began to project his ki downward ("made himself heavy" as I call it). The uke could no longer hold him up and fell themselves. As was discussed in that thread, this type of thing is not generally taught in Yoshinkan.

It does appear to be something carried over from Daito Ryu. I have seen Okamoto Sensei do similar things in his DVD.

This is generally described as being a "secret technique". Which is something that will be taght only to very advanced seniors who have been training for a very long tim.

I haven't tried this exact technique yet, but I will soon. I think that with only 2 uke I can probably make it work based on things that I learned in Taichi.

My thought is that, in a number of cases, the "secret techniques" and "advanced principles" of Aikido and Daito Ryu such as this, are often found in the more fundamental teachings of Taichi.

Which makes me wonder why some still use the term "secret technique". It's not a very goo dsecrete if it's the foundation of an art that millions of people outside of your school are practicing.

Jim Mc Coy
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Old 04-03-2008, 07:32 PM   #2
Joseph Madden
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

It's not a secret technique, but rather a trick. Anybody can do it. The trick lies in getting the uke to move the way you want them to. One minute they can pick you up. After they stop and put you down you then ask them to try it again. This has an effect on uke at an unconscious level by altering how they have perceived you. When they go to pick you up a second time they are unable to do it. Its the same fundamental as the straight arm bend.
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Old 04-03-2008, 07:37 PM   #3
Joseph Madden
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

http://youtube.com/watch?v=DT-a33A7Aa8

Here's a link to the trick.
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Old 04-04-2008, 05:42 AM   #4
MM
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Quote:
Joseph Madden wrote: View Post
It's not a secret technique, but rather a trick. Anybody can do it. The trick lies in getting the uke to move the way you want them to. One minute they can pick you up. After they stop and put you down you then ask them to try it again. This has an effect on uke at an unconscious level by altering how they have perceived you. When they go to pick you up a second time they are unable to do it. Its the same fundamental as the straight arm bend.
Joseph,
The exercise isn't as you described above. Reread the original post. The exercise is that someone is held up already by 2 people. Then, that person makes themselves heavy and the 2 people find that they cannot hold him/her up any longer.

But, I do agree it isn't an advanced technique. I tried this with two people and could get it to work -- once. They lifted me and were like, okay, he's heavy (I'm 190 pounds) but manageable. Then I worked at "getting heavy" and things changed. They said I felt like I tripled my weight and they couldn't hold me up for long.

For me, as I was in the air, I initially felt disconnected from the ground. Then, I realized I could actually "ground" myself through the two of them. Sort of like treating each of them as one of my legs. Then I worked to bring the ground and my center together. Sort of something like that. Hard to explain.

Mark
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Old 04-04-2008, 05:47 AM   #5
MM
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Quote:
Jim McCoy wrote: View Post
This thought is something that has been bouncing around in my head for some time. It came to surface again, triggered by a thread on a Yoshinkan board.

The thread described a seminar by a senior teacher who demonstrated a technique where atleast 2 uke picked him up. He then began to project his ki downward ("made himself heavy" as I call it). The uke could no longer hold him up and fell themselves. As was discussed in that thread, this type of thing is not generally taught in Yoshinkan.

It does appear to be something carried over from Daito Ryu. I have seen Okamoto Sensei do similar things in his DVD.

This is generally described as being a "secret technique". Which is something that will be taght only to very advanced seniors who have been training for a very long tim.

I haven't tried this exact technique yet, but I will soon. I think that with only 2 uke I can probably make it work based on things that I learned in Taichi.

My thought is that, in a number of cases, the "secret techniques" and "advanced principles" of Aikido and Daito Ryu such as this, are often found in the more fundamental teachings of Taichi.

Which makes me wonder why some still use the term "secret technique". It's not a very goo dsecrete if it's the foundation of an art that millions of people outside of your school are practicing.
Jim,
Yes, there is a youtube of Okamoto sensei doing this very thing. Only he has quite a few uke under him.

It's not really that far fetched to think that some Yoshinkan people are doing this. After all, Shioda studied Daito ryu under two teachers and this is something that you see in Daito ryu.

The reason, IMO, that it's called secret is because they are working with "aiki" as taught by Takeda down through his students. And Takeda told them not to teach it to everyone. Takeda was tough and scary. I really don't think his students wanted to upset him all that much, so they did what they were told. Hence, secret and advanced.

If you find it in taichi, that's great. Personally, I think it's not commonly taught in taichi either. But, that's just my opinion.

Mark
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Old 04-04-2008, 08:49 AM   #6
Blake Holtzen
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Jim,
Yes, there is a youtube of Okamoto sensei doing this very thing. Only he has quite a few uke under him.

It's not really that far fetched to think that some Yoshinkan people are doing this. After all, Shioda studied Daito ryu under two teachers and this is something that you see in Daito ryu.

The reason, IMO, that it's called secret is because they are working with "aiki" as taught by Takeda down through his students. And Takeda told them not to teach it to everyone. Takeda was tough and scary. I really don't think his students wanted to upset him all that much, so they did what they were told. Hence, secret and advanced.

If you find it in taichi, that's great. Personally, I think it's not commonly taught in taichi either. But, that's just my opinion.

Mark
It seems to me that the heavy weighted thing is a specialty of shioda. Many of his dvds show him simply touching a student then a small sudden "heavy weighting" and student faceplants.

As far as this skill being prevalent in taichi, I think it is also quite rare, in as far as it is demonstratable and not just lipservice. Millions of people practice taichi, but not real (martial) taichi. It is more like old man's exercise with no structure and certainly no internal mechanics.

While at a seminar, I remember Fong Ha (Yang style taichi) asking me to push him on the chest as hard as I can while he stands in a normal feet parallel stance. I am quite strong but of course I could not move him a nudge. And to further insult my pride, he let me push on him for about a min or so while he explained to the class what he was doing and what I was doing wrong.

Interesting to say the least.

Take Care,

-Blake
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Old 04-04-2008, 09:51 AM   #7
ChrisMoses
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

This is pretty common in Tohei influenced schools too. There's a number of ways to do it. I could do it years ago when I really didn't have a clue.

Chris Moses
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Old 04-04-2008, 09:56 AM   #8
Upyu
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

And here we come full circle yet again...

Murray is right, it's a skill that needs to be developed...and it's one anyone should be able to do if they've trained properly for a year or so.

Blake:
The feet parallel thing is difficult, but its more a matter of conditioning and skill. I can do it and handle a certain degree of pressure before my connections can't take it anymore, but the skill involved isn't that high a level. It's simple grounding/peng path/kokyu skill whatever you want to call it
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Old 04-04-2008, 12:35 PM   #9
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Thanks for your input and comments.

I don't think I can do it as well as Okamoto Sensei with his gang of uke. But I will try it with 2.

I have done it with one, having him pick me up first and then take a better stance and try again. This is always day one with new taichi and aikido students. It's pretty simple. We then use the same principle to prevent the application of a "full nelson", which brings in some real world self defense.

If I can get it to work with 2 uke I'll consider posting a video to youtube and of course put myself in for that 10th Dan, Ki Master certificate from the local soke board.

Jim Mc Coy
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Old 04-21-2008, 10:13 PM   #10
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Quote:
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This is pretty common in Tohei influenced schools too. There's a number of ways to do it. I could do it years ago when I really didn't have a clue.
chris,

I too am a bit too heavy and broken up to play with this technique. But I do believe simple physics gives us the foundation and Daito arts gives us the method. Please advise if you resonate with the following from your experience.

Daito throws are often accomplished not by lifting an uke as seen in Quito Ryu/modern Judo. Many techniques are accomplished by "weighting" uke's spine by relaxing your body sequentially. Sequenced relaxation builds momentum within your body.

When uke's spine is compressed, you now have a connection to his center of gravity. Small shifts of your center can make uke's compressed spine become unstable. Once unstable, the load, (your relaxed mass) moves his center outside he base and he falls.

Multiple-uke Daito throwing and throwing with portions of your body (other than your hands) is a necessary prerequisite. Finally, you learn to do it in a prone position rather than a standing one.

It is just physics. Relaxation. And a smidgen of mental focus points.
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Old 04-22-2008, 08:10 AM   #11
Mike Sigman
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

I think it's angular momentum.

Or not!

MIke
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Old 04-22-2008, 09:39 AM   #12
tuturuhan
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

"Quote: The reason you haven't been taught what to do with your qi when you
fajing is that fajing breaks the qi connection as the jing is emitted.
It's a matter of store and release. You store the jing and qi and then
lose them for a second when you emit them until you can store them
again. This is why I don't consider "fa"-ing anything to be more than
intermediate level. IMO fajing, etc. isn't high level stuff." by the "Wonderous Channel" Dave Chesser (Formosa Neijia Blog)

The Eye of the Strike

On a very very basic level, this is the corkscrew of the reverse punch (e.g. karate punch). The beginner punches with his arm. The intermediate punches with his wrist. The advanced guy knows how to punch with his palm and finger tips. Fa jing is being emitted.

However, without this level, one can never learn to fight. The focus of the punch, its accuracy and its speed of delivery allow the karate man to fight within six months. Most gung fu men take at least ten years before they figure out how to fight.

At a series of intermediate levels (and there are many many levels of intermediate and just as many levels of high quality) one begins to understand the idea of "natural resources". You learn that using your punch "full force" all the time depletes energy. So, you begin to punch with just the appropriate power necessary to accomplish the purpose of taking out your opponent. Next, you start to learn that "going too fast and too hard" must be unlearned if you want to be "more efficient". You start to understand the circle and how energy is recycled. It's then that you become capable of going incredibly fast or powerful if need be.

At higher levels, you being to tune yourself to your nervous system and your opponent's electrical and hydraulic systems. You begin to employ knowledge of mirroring neurons and how the three brains control the body and how the fourth brain in the stomach communicates messages. This all becomes intuitive. The spirits speak to you.

Then you take the simple which has become complex and simplify. Over the years you discover that the process is endless. It spirals over and over from simple to complex, from complex back to simple.

As such, the adept throws his "simple punch" and to the "many leveled intermediates" it looks like the punch of a beginner. Only when the intermediate learns to give up his beliefs and complexity does he begin to develop "the eye" for recognizing the adept.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Old 04-22-2008, 09:49 AM   #13
Mike Sigman
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
You begin to employ knowledge of mirroring neurons and how the three brains control the body and how the fourth brain in the stomach communicates messages. This all becomes intuitive. The spirits speak to you.
Man, this stuff is harder than I thought. Where's my mirror and how do you use it on a neuron????

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Old 04-22-2008, 09:54 AM   #14
tuturuhan
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Man, this stuff is harder than I thought. Where's my mirror and how do you use it on a neuron????

Mike,

Its right in front of you. Its called confronting your insecurities.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Old 04-22-2008, 12:21 PM   #15
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

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Blake Holtzen wrote: View Post
It seems to me that the heavy weighted thing is a specialty of shioda. Many of his dvds show him simply touching a student then a small sudden "heavy weighting" and student faceplants.
-Blake
I tend to call this "heavy Hands" but it is really not about the hands. It is about sequential relaxation and letting gravity take over. Direction is placed with intent and mild body directioning. Thus, I use a sequence as said before, that the mind directs the body and (when uninhibited by tension) momentum/Ki follows.

Here is a clip of heavy hands dropping uke while he is in motion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsYgtrcu1E4

It is a bit harder to do it when uke is static. I have had a lot of success with it over the years and have even developed a form of "vibrating palm" striking from in the process.

I will do a video of it this week if you like. The problem with videoing it is that you have to make the circle so small to accomplish the task that it isn't picked up on video and people will not believe it.

But you can begin the process with a simple small-circle Daito-style throw.

Lightly grasp the two lapels of uke. Relax your body and let the direction come out of your arms like a sword cut. Do not force it. Cut through butter in your mind. I demonstrated this on Sensei Ledyard at Oberland seminar when we were one-on-one and free speaking. (He is certainly a true gentleman.)

Once relaxed, you will feel the compression of the joints. Then move your lower body with a focus on uke's center moving to one of the known throwing points in his posture. Then drop more weight there with your body and your mind. Do not force it, let gravity do it.

Do not watch for the Ikkyo Curve. This is something different as Ikkyo Curve is about a connection the upper torso that places direction with a larger Aikido-style circle. Go directly to the pelvic girdle with compression and then give it direction. Now you are in the small Daito circle. You might see that the shoulders do follow the Ikkyo curve when you do this. But concentrate on this pelvic girdle connection.

You may find that your hips have to "wiggle" in order to accomplish this throw. But the wiggle must effect uke's hips.

In time, you can make this throw so small that you simply drop your hand on a shoulder or lightly place your hand on the shoulder and the whole process occurs. You touch the uke and he falls down.

I will cut some video this week of several stages of the process, unless I start to get blasted by the critics again.
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Old 04-23-2008, 07:25 PM   #16
Upyu
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
"Quote: The reason you haven't been taught what to do with your qi when you
fajing is that fajing breaks the qi connection as the jing is emitted.
It's a matter of store and release. You store the jing and qi and then
lose them for a second when you emit them until you can store them
again. This is why I don't consider "fa"-ing anything to be more than
intermediate level. IMO fajing, etc. isn't high level stuff." by the "Wonderous Channel" Dave Chesser (Formosa Neijia Blog)

On a very very basic level, this is the corkscrew of the reverse punch (e.g. karate punch). The beginner punches with his arm. The intermediate punches with his wrist. The advanced guy knows how to punch with his palm and finger tips. Fa jing is being emitted.
Why don't we talk about the actual mechanics that drive that "basic" but "proper" punch. What's the actual difference between the beginner who uses shoulder, and a bit of a hip drive with leg twist, and the more advanced practicioners?
How does the arm connect to the middle? How do the feet initiate and immediately transfer through the pelvic girdle (kua) up through the middle etc.
How is the back involved in the punch?
Why does the punch itself corkscrew?
What's the difference between simply punching with Jin/Kokyu, as opposed to using "Fa" Jin/Kokyu?

I think if we go down this avenue we could have a more informed debate on matters.

On another note, I'd mention that I know a bunch of Polish dudes doing a northern CMA system from the mainland that would probably not fit into your stated category about gung fu guys.
Only reason "most gung fu" guys can't fight is because
a) They aren't being taught the real mechanics or reason behind their training/conditioning system
b) They don't really fight,(Not to spout matt thornton'S tired old tirade on alive training), and even if they do, since they aren't being taught a) they never progress beyond craptastic kick boxing.

We got guys over here in tokyo who have increased the perceived "weight" behind their strikes enormously in under a year. Simply because they know how and what to train. Fighting is a different story though, using advanced body skills under pressure is a whole study onto itself
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Old 04-23-2008, 07:48 PM   #17
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
Fighting is a different story though, using advanced body skills under pressure is a whole study onto itself
Howdy,

Good to connect with you again. As the old addage says, "Who can be calm until the first blow is struck?"

The path of relaxation is a road less travelled. It often takes someone skilled in wae-gong to really make use of nei-gong.

But, I do believe that intent and a bit of soft relaxed motion trumps fa-jing. Momentum can be developed in a variety of ways. I have tight hips but I can blast someone with my own style of generating momentum. In reality, it is my intention that is doing 90% of the work.

There are a variety of ailments that can hinder the 101A structure study. A club foot, fused disks in the spine, scoliosis, amputations, etc. Yet, each challenged body can find a way to develop internal power.

What say you??
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Old 04-23-2008, 08:21 PM   #18
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Quote:
=Robert John;203150]And here we come full circle yet again... Murray is right, it's a skill that needs to be developed...and it's one anyone should be able to do if they've trained properly for a year or so.
Can you describe how Tohei and Okamoto do their "heavy body"
technique that collapses multiple uke that are holding him up in the air?

Does training for a year in "structure training" as you do make this skill easy to do?

What is your "building block" process? I shared mine and will supply a video to support my thesis this weekend.
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Old 04-23-2008, 08:31 PM   #19
tuturuhan
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

mechanics, to physics, analog to digital, particle to wave

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Old 04-23-2008, 09:52 PM   #20
Upyu
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Can you describe how Tohei and Okamoto do their "heavy body"
technique that collapses multiple uke that are holding him up in the air?

Does training for a year in "structure training" as you do make this skill easy to do?

What is your "building block" process? I shared mine and will supply a video to support my thesis this weekend.
I don't think Tohei ever did the multiple uke collapse gimmick, but the principle is still the same.

Training for a year in "structure" training certainly makes you "heavier" to the touch, simply because the body begins to understand some more fundamental concepts of balance etc.
One "instant results" trick I like to show occasionally, is where you have someone lift you up from the chest.
The first time, they're not aware of the upper center and easy to lift up.
The second time, you have them put a little bit of relaxed tension in the upper center (in the sternum) and maintain an opposed top to bottom tension (but still relaxed). They become immediately harder to lift up, because they're maintaining the upper center stability.
If you start to put in lower center/dantien usage etc, then they become even harder to lift. (basically its an easier version of tohei's unliftable body)

This directly correlates to okamoto's parlor tricks.
The overall idea is that you don't manipulate Uke themselves.
Rather since the Uke are holding you up, you and them are essentially one "unit." This means that you can access the "ground" through them and place your "jin" force whereever you want. In this case you place it in a "hole" in one Uke (best place is perpendicular to the feet), destabilizing the entire ring of Uke, causing them to collapse. To them if feels like you suddenly became heavier, but that's because their balance is completely shot without them realizing it.

The "building block" process is outlined on the website, and I think Tim Fong did a good general overview of our approach on the aikido journal website
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=699

I say "our approach", though really its not "original" in a pure sense.
Its simply an "approach" to developing qi/jin skill.
Plenty of other CMA use similar theory/approach in developing these skills
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Old 04-23-2008, 10:16 PM   #21
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

great article. I am hoping to attend his seminar but a project in SF might interfere.

Regarding the technique.... Wiggling or wrything without structural heaviness can make a group collapse some of the time.
structural heaviness alone can make a group collapse some of the time.
to do it 100% of the time requires Dairo-based kuzushi skills. I agree with your term "destabilize". I used it two months ago on a different topic. Kuzushi, to me, has several aspects that must be isolated and studied. Raising the center of gravity is one aspect of destabilization. But it is often misunderstood as if uke must be lifted. There is yang where yin is present. Two sides of a coin. Of I weight the front side of uke's torso(yin), his center raises along his back (yang). Side to side is the same. Of course, messing with the "four levels" is the simple method of festa ilization. Kuzushi ultimately includes the loss of balance. Balance and stability are two different things. Both are part of taking kuzushi. Reduction of someone's base is also part of kuzushi.
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Old 04-23-2008, 11:38 PM   #22
tuturuhan
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
I don't think Tohei ever did the multiple uke collapse gimmick, but the principle is still the same.

Training for a year in "structure" training certainly makes you "heavier" to the touch, simply because the body begins to understand some more fundamental concepts of balance etc.
One "instant results" trick I like to show occasionally, is where you have someone lift you up from the chest.

I say "our approach", though really its not "original" in a pure sense.
Its simply an "approach" to developing qi/jin skill.
Plenty of other CMA use similar theory/approach in developing these skills
Do you have a video of the skills you are talking about. I would love to get a visual interpretation.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Old 04-24-2008, 02:30 AM   #23
Upyu
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
Do you have a video of the skills you are talking about. I would love to get a visual interpretation.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
Hi Joseph,

I don't have vids demoing those specific circumstances, but the skills being used are the same ones used to make kicks/punches heavier with less effort.

Best reference would be some of Ark's vids which are floating around on Youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAJVQMCWeOA

I have a craptastic one of myself from almost 2 years ago here doing kicks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nk-HLVl9LNo
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Old 04-24-2008, 07:05 AM   #24
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Robert,

Excellent interpretations...as to taking the "force" and transferring it to the leg or to the fist. Most "recreational" martial artists never reach this level.

However, the box has many limitations. From what I see there is an external fa jing (influenced by chinese martial arts...this has taken place for over 1000 years). Though the "box" is certainly uniquely japanese in thought, motion and application. The ability to fluidlly adapt gives one the mobility to be "water".

In other words, by taking "form and shape", one must be aware of the weaknesses of the "form" one takes. The architecture though seemingly "beautiful and strong" has weaknesses hidden by the skin (culture, belief, application) of the building. Essentially, the method you and the other martial artist are performing is still essentially external martial arts. (Of course, from my perspective/opinion/experience...yin/internal/energy martial art is the "grand ultimate fist"). As such, the internalist, "blends, grasps and manipulates by aborbing the "force" of his opponent and then "emits" with focus, rather than "unleashing" his strikes.

Though, there is no doubt in my mind you can "fight". You have gone from traditional, to honing the skill, to incorporating other influences and than applying to MMA. The physical and the intellectual are no doubt the components that have brought you to your current level. The physical, the intellectual and the spiritual still have many lifetimes to congeal for you and for the rest of us.

But, to incorporate the nuances that lead to jin (small explosive power), the "big structure" must be "parted with" (at least for now). In your leg technique you are using "dead weight" to increase the power and velocity of the strike to the point of contact. It is a bit like a "chain and ball". Yet, the rest of the body is stuck in the structure of the "box". The hope is to make the entire body unified and yet disconnected at will. The hope is to regulate the strike. Instead, of using full force every single time...one should adjust to use only "necessary and appropriate" force so as to recycle one's natural resources (e.g. I don't need to thrust with the knife, I can simply use the razor of the blade to gently slice)

Thank you for the interaction. Very nice technique.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Old 04-24-2008, 06:07 PM   #25
Upyu
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Re: Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
Robert,

Excellent interpretations...as to taking the "force" and transferring it to the leg or to the fist. Most "recreational" martial artists never reach this level.

However, the box has many limitations. From what I see there is an external fa jing (influenced by chinese martial arts...this has taken place for over 1000 years). Though the "box" is certainly uniquely japanese in thought, motion and application. The ability to fluidlly adapt gives one the mobility to be "water".
<snip>

But, to incorporate the nuances that lead to jin (small explosive power), the "big structure" must be "parted with" (at least for now). In your leg technique you are using "dead weight" to increase the power and velocity of the strike to the point of contact. It is a bit like a "chain and ball". Yet, the rest of the body is stuck in the structure of the "box". The hope is to make the entire body unified and yet disconnected at will. The hope is to regulate the strike. Instead, of using full force every single time...one should adjust to use only "necessary and appropriate" force so as to recycle one's natural resources (e.g. I don't need to thrust with the knife, I can simply use the razor of the blade to gently slice)

Thank you for the interaction. Very nice technique.
Hi Joseph,

Thanks for the feedback.
A couple of things, and I hope you realize I'm not dismissing what you said, since I do value advice given by people with more practical experience than myself.

Anyways couple of things,

First quibble:
While I hate to get into debates over language in a topic about body skills,
"Jin" doesn't mean, and never has meant, from my experience, nor does it logically mean "small explosive power."
"Fa" means explosive. "Jin" is simply power. In this case power of a different sort which is typically differentiated from "Li."
In essence Fajing typically refers to a "store-release" type of power generation, and I wasn't using any kind of "storing" in my power generation.
Even though the chinese will use jin in various expressions, "Fa-jin", "An jin", "Liu jin" etc etc, from my experience they still refer to only "one" jin, and simply refer to the different uses of that jin.

Feel free to correct me if you think the above interpretation is out of whack.

2nd:
I'm not using "dead weight" at all. Either that or our definitions of "dead weight" are different.
I was using very little power at all to achieve the affect shown, and it only had that much of an effect because my partner was used to "bracing" against the kicks.
Moreoever I was only demonstrating the importance of keeping an opposing "top - to - bottom" and "side to side" contradiction of forces in place as you move (in reality there should be six, but I didn't want to get into that).
There was no manipulation of the middle occurring, nor any use of the koshi/small of the back etc.

Maybe you could elaborate on how you train six directional forces?

3d:
Maybe we should clarify our definitions of "jin."
Mine is that it's a connection to the ground that is originated in the feet (partly manipulated by it), largely manipulated by the lower middle (or can be manipulated by the upper middle/chest area) and expressed through the extremities.

Simple expression of Jin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKxmKQqR1cU

Maybe you'd like to take a stab at explaining how the guy in grey is able to hold the guy in "black" down, and what's being worked on?

I mean, we both know what's going on here, but for the benefit of the rest of the board it would be good to have a more senior perspective on what's going on.

Last edited by Upyu : 04-24-2008 at 06:11 PM.
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