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Old 11-27-2007, 04:36 PM   #1
jirvine
Location: Sheridan Oregon
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Hard Aikido

Hello
My name is Jon Irvine. For the last two years I've been taking random lesson's in San Soo Kung Fu Mostly from my brother a 2nd degree black belt who live's in California. Here ly's my problem. I have not been able to find a reliable master who teaches any where near my house. I live in Sheridan Oregon and I'm willing to travel as far as Portland Oregon to learn Hard Aikido. Can anybody in this forum lead me in the right direction?
Jon Irvine
jirvine7774@yahoo.com
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Old 11-27-2007, 06:29 PM   #2
Carlos Rivera
 
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Re: Hard Aikido

I don't know what you mean by "Hard Aikido" but you have an Iwama Style Aikido school near you in Salem, OR. You can find dojos through the Aikiweb dojo search engine. Anyway, here's their link:

http://www.nobelnoise.com/aikidosalem

I practice Iwama Style Aikido, and you may want to check it out.

Good luck!
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Old 11-27-2007, 11:04 PM   #3
DarkShodan
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Re: Hard Aikido

I thought all aikido was hard! You mean there is "Easy Aikido"? Holy cow! Where do I sign up for that?!

Also, I have been drinking "Fat Free" water for years, says so on the label. There must be water with the fat still in it somewhere! If someone could please hook that up for me I would appreciate it.

;-)

Victims, aren't we all.
-- Eric Draven
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Old 11-28-2007, 08:14 AM   #4
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Hard Aikido

Portland Oregon? Look up Alan Beebee...let me check the spelling of the name.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 11-28-2007, 08:31 AM   #5
Pierre Kewcharoen
 
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Re: Hard Aikido

Quote:
Lloyd McWhirt wrote: View Post
I thought all aikido was hard! You mean there is "Easy Aikido"? Holy cow! Where do I sign up for that?!

Also, I have been drinking "Fat Free" water for years, says so on the label. There must be water with the fat still in it somewhere! If someone could please hook that up for me I would appreciate it.

;-)
While you are at it, you might as well enjoy some "fat free" air.
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Old 11-28-2007, 08:41 AM   #6
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Hard Aikido

Allen Beebe ... you can PM him on this board. If you want GOOD aikido (haven't a clue what you mean by hard) this is the place to look, in my opinion.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 11-28-2007, 11:14 AM   #7
Eric Joyce
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Re: Hard Aikido

When you say hard do you mean something that resembles a form of jujutsu?

Eric Joyce
Otake Han Doshin Ryu Jujutsu
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Old 11-28-2007, 11:48 AM   #8
TomW
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Re: Hard Aikido

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Allen Beebe ...
His Aikido is good, but that whole "reliable master" thing.....

Tom Wharton

Kodokan Aikido - Puttin' the Harm in Harmony,
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Old 11-28-2007, 12:00 PM   #9
Pierre Kewcharoen
 
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Re: Hard Aikido

Quote:
Tom Wharton wrote: View Post
His Aikido is good, but that whole "reliable master" thing.....
If you see a "master" wearing colorful gi's and teaching how to throw "ki" balls at people. Run far away.
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Old 11-28-2007, 01:15 PM   #10
Chris Farnham
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Re: Hard Aikido

I almost moved to Portland about six months ago and my Sensei recommended Multnomah Aikikai. I don't know how hard they are but they are a member of Chiba Sensei's Birankai organization. While I'm not sure that the term hard should be used in an Aikido context( I think it conveys ideas of tension that don't belong in Aikido), Chiba Sensei's Aikido has been referred to as hard from time to time.

Last edited by Chris Farnham : 11-28-2007 at 01:19 PM.
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Old 11-28-2007, 02:08 PM   #11
DarkShodan
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Re: Hard Aikido

While we can sit here and debate the meaning of hard, it's important to note "Hard" Aikido does not mean "Good" Aikido. I have worked with some very talented people who are very soft, but very effective. I have worked with a lot of hard styles as well and I can not say they are necessarily better. I think it's great to do hard throws and fast pins but someday you will be 60 years old and then what? Looks like a lot of good instructors in the Portland area, but I can not vouch for any of them personally. Chiba Sensei, yes, hard style, or better defined as rough style. I really do like Chiba Sensei but some of his students try to be like him and don't do him justice. Again, Hard is not necessarily Better.

Fat Free air?! Un-believable! What will they invent next?

Victims, aren't we all.
-- Eric Draven
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Old 11-28-2007, 07:36 PM   #12
deepsoup
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Re: Hard Aikido

Quote:
Eric Joyce wrote: View Post
When you say hard do you mean something that resembles a form of jujutsu?
Aikido is a form of jujutsu.
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Old 11-28-2007, 09:01 PM   #13
No Dan
Dojo: Aikido of Conway
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Re: Hard Aikido

I haven't posted except maybe once or twice....I would have to agree with another reply in "Hard"...You are probably referring to Hard and Soft style martial arts....In Aikido if you are inquiring in the same ideas as in general....well here goes my Prejudice....go with a good Iwama class...You want Hard....when you bounce off the floor from a good surprise of Irimi Nage and a good THUMP from a Koshinage....then you will have found Hard...go young Jedi and find the force...
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Old 11-29-2007, 12:29 AM   #14
Walker
 
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Re: Hard Aikido

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Allen Beebe ... you can PM him on this board. If you want GOOD aikido (haven't a clue what you mean by hard) this is the place to look, in my opinion.

Best,
Ron
Ron, you are a gentleman and a scholar.

[shhh, check's in the mail...]

-Doug Walker
光道館 高村派新道楊心流
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Old 11-29-2007, 07:14 AM   #15
Pierre Kewcharoen
 
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Re: Hard Aikido

It's a Consipiracy
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Old 11-29-2007, 07:24 AM   #16
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Hard Aikido

Quote:
Doug Walker wrote: View Post
Ron, you are a gentleman and a scholar.

[shhh, check's in the mail...]
And you as well...

Now, where did I put today's mail???

B,
R

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 11-29-2007, 08:06 AM   #17
Daniel Blanco
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Re: Hard Aikido

Aikido training can be soft or hard that depends on you your level and the respectable level of your partner,concentrate on both soft and hard style Aikido and you will enjoy this martial art.
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Old 11-29-2007, 08:14 AM   #18
Jorge Garcia
Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
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Re: Hard Aikido

Quote:
Lloyd McWhirt wrote: View Post
While we can sit here and debate the meaning of hard, it's important to note "Hard" Aikido does not mean "Good" Aikido. I have worked with some very talented people who are very soft, but very effective. I have worked with a lot of hard styles as well and I can not say they are necessarily better. I think it's great to do hard throws and fast pins but someday you will be 60 years old and then what? Looks like a lot of good instructors in the Portland area, but I can not vouch for any of them personally. Chiba Sensei, yes, hard style, or better defined as rough style. I really do like Chiba Sensei but some of his students try to be like him and don't do him justice. Again, Hard is not necessarily Better.
I have thought about what "hard Aikido" is very much since I started to teach. I have always liked a good robust form of Aikido with big throws and firm pins and lots of fast action. A few people have characterized what I do as realistic and some as hard. As I have looked at it more carefully, I have come up with two different categories based on some of the people I have trained under and the contrast I see with what I am trying to do and what my own intentions are.

My two distinctions are dangerous Aikido and safe Aikido. I think what should be characterized as "hard" is what most refer to as what I would call dangerous. If you are going in with a tsuke and tori or nage returns with an iriminage, there are two alternatives, one is a Steven Seagal type of spearing motion or just letting them go by or possibly going up and lifting them.
The spearing motion is dangerous and could break your neck or seriously injure you, even if you know how to jump up and relax your body and receive the technique. This kind of a technique is from an older style of Aikido and the older style may have some origins in really trying to hurt the attacker.
Letting the strike go by and pulling them down from behind could be said to be soft but effective. Entering with the hip and using an upward arm motion will catch them and lift them up. At that point, they will fall to the ground at the speed of gravity and they can either take the ukemi or not but at the worst, they will most likely just have the wind knocked out of them.

In what I do, no matter how fast or robust I do it, is always just trying to lift up uke and then move out of the spot where he is falling and let him fall at the speed of gravity adding no extra down motion. Some people add a lot of extra down motion to their techniques and the more you add, the greater amount of chance of an injury. That one intentionality adds something to the technique that puts it into another category. I do a lot of things to protect uke and I try not to cause uke pain but rather to control uke by putting him in zero gravity for one second and then lifting him and letting him fall at the speed of gravity. In my mind, this is that safest way to do techniques and still be effective.

Soft looking motions and even simple unbalancing motions added with a bad intention can still be dangerous and in my mind considered as "hard".
Another way I learned to look at this was that. It doesn't matter how it looks, it matters what you are trying to do. I once took some classes with an instructor that basically did everything I have ever told my students not to do because of safety but he did them all on purpose. Every technique then had a large percentage of danger because he was executing them in a dangerous way. For example, In a kokyunage throw, I teach the you should shoot your energy out because it is powerful, effective and relatively safe and yet uke falls at the speed of gravity. Some people drop their weight, lean forward hard and then push down with the arms and hands as hard as they can driving uke into the mat and sending the head in a downward motion dangerously close to the mat. I call that hard because it introduces an element that increases the chance of serious injury. It's very dangerous.
I understand that an accident can happen at any time in any style and that there are variables but for thier sake of definition and some clarity, this is how I think about it.

Once, someone said I had a very hard style because of some of the throws I do. Then, one of my black belts answered and said, "One thing about him is that he never throws anyone anyway unless he is convinced that they can receive the throw the way he is doing it." That is a factor as well. Some teachers either don't have the understanding or don't care and they will throw you not really knowing your capacity to receive a technique. That is dangerous in my mind and that's hard Aikido because it is dangerous to the recipients of it.

That is my simple take on the subject with the understanding that there are obvious exceptions to any principle here and there.
best wishes,
Jorge

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 11-29-2007, 09:10 AM   #19
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Hard Aikido

Nice post Jorge! I basically agree...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 11-29-2007, 03:53 PM   #20
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Hard Aikido

Yup...good post Jorge!

I think Good Aikido is Hard. Hard to do that is!

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Old 11-29-2007, 09:43 PM   #21
Rocky Izumi
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Re: Hard Aikido

I might be disagreeing here. I find that the more gently any technique is done, the more dangerous it becomes for Uke if the technique is done for effectiveness. It is much safer to throw someone with force and direction because the vectors in the fall do not change as much as with one done gently. For a throw to be done gently or a pin to be done gently, but effectively, it must be done with full implementation of Kokyu and Ki No Nagare. The smoothness that entails means a lot of rotational movement, in other words, acceleration instead of speed. Force, being equal to Mass times Acceleration means that the force with which an individual is being thrown or pinned with that rotational movement is being moved with much greater force than a direct linear throw or pin (especially since the use of Kokyu indicates a use of full mass). Physics would suggest that gentleness, if used correctly throws or pins a person with much greater force than a strong linear throw or pin. Thus, effective gentleness is much more forceful than linear use of muscle power and could, thereby, be much more dangerous for Uke. I have hurt more people by accident doing gentle things than forceful throws or pins or takedowns. That is why I tend not to do real gentle any more, it is too dangerous for any Uke who is not yet a Yudansha.

Rock
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Old 11-30-2007, 07:35 AM   #22
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Hard Aikido

Very interesting post Rock, I'm going to think about it a bit, then I might have a question or two...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 11-30-2007, 09:13 AM   #23
John Matsushima
 
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Re: Hard Aikido

In my experience, "hard aikido" only works on those who are not strong enough to resist it. In addition, people who do use force often telegraph their moves with a wind up, and then since their force is easily felt, to me, it can be easily countered. You can't counter what you don't feel. "Soft Aikido" to me is both effective and safe. I like to train so that I can do my techniques on anyone effectively. That means taking someone who is a beginner and putting them into a high fall, but having the control to rotate them so that they hit the ground in a safe position. I think that "hard aikido" occurs when someone has good form, but lacks dynamics and direction.

-John Matsushima

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Old 12-01-2007, 05:49 AM   #24
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Hard Aikido

Quote:
Hiroaki Izumi wrote: View Post
It is much safer to throw someone with force and direction because the vectors in the fall do not change as much as with one done gently. For a throw to be done gently or a pin to be done gently, but effectively, it must be done with full implementation of Kokyu and Ki No Nagare. The smoothness that entails means a lot of rotational movement, in other words, acceleration instead of speed. Force, being equal to Mass times Acceleration means that the force with which an individual is being thrown or pinned with that rotational movement is being moved with much greater force than a direct linear throw or pin (especially since the use of Kokyu indicates a use of full mass). Physics would suggest that gentleness, if used correctly throws or pins a person with much greater force than a strong linear throw or pin. Thus, effective gentleness is much more forceful than linear use of muscle power and could, thereby, be much more dangerous for Uke. I have hurt more people by accident doing gentle things than forceful throws or pins or takedowns. That is why I tend not to do real gentle any more, it is too dangerous for any Uke who is not yet a Yudansha.
The above has also been my observation as well. I agree totally - well said Rock.

Imho safety in the dojo has much less to do with whether one does forceful waza and more to do with the skill level of Uke's Ukemi and Tori's understanding and appreciation of that skill level.

Regarding "hard" vs "soft" Aikido I got the impression that the OP used it in a context common to Chinese MA where the "hard" arts tend to be more focused on building combative ability first, then the internal and the "soft" style focused more on internal skills first, then combat ability later. Of course this is from my own limited knowledge of CMA, corrections are welcome.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 12-02-2007, 05:13 PM   #25
salim
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Re: Hard Aikido

Perhaps he means something similar to this video clip.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bAhBPa6-CJ4&feature=related
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