Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-14-2007, 10:05 PM   #1
The Jawz
 
The Jawz's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Yuishinkai Bentleigh
Location: Melbourne
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 4
Australia
Offline
Aikido vs. Kickboxing (video)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Bn59zha-uAQ

I thought you might like to see this, I found it interesting.

Mainly because we hardly ever do anything with kicks at our dojo. Actually, I should probably ask my sensei about that

:/
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2007, 10:30 PM   #2
Roman Kremianski
Dojo: Toronto Aikikai
Location: Toronto, Canada
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 404
Canada
Offline
Re: Aikido vs. Kickboxing (video)

The title's a bit misleading, as there's no actual competitive nature to the demonstration.

Clip itself is alright. Kicker didn't really seem to follow through with a lot of those. The irimi body movement against the kick to the thigh did not seem right. I'd be interested to see that with speed and power.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2007, 10:30 PM   #3
salim
Location: Greensboro North Carolina
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido vs. Kickboxing (video)

I would have like to have seen the kicks and punches more realistic. Overall a good demonstration. The attacker paused his movements, allowing a chance for the Aikido technique to be applied. Real resistance is better to really know if the technique will work. Kicks and punches that are not telegraphed or rehearsed in anyway. The approach should be given with as much realism as possible to make it dynamic, real test of the technique.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2007, 09:02 AM   #4
Mattias Bengtsson
Dojo: Halmstad Aikidoklubb
Location: Halmstad
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 37
Sweden
Offline
Re: Aikido vs. Kickboxing (video)

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
The title's a bit misleading, as there's no actual competitive nature to the demonstration.

Clip itself is alright. Kicker didn't really seem to follow through with a lot of those. The irimi body movement against the kick to the thigh did not seem right. I'd be interested to see that with speed and power.
Speed and power from the Uke will be countered with speed and power from the Nage. And people will get injured...
Same thing applies for resisting.
Which is bad for training.

I think the clip is just fine as it points out that there are ways to defend against kicks which you rarely get to see otherwise.
The clip is meant as demonstration and should be taken as such.

Last edited by Mattias Bengtsson : 09-15-2007 at 09:05 AM.

Uke Iacta Est
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2007, 09:40 AM   #5
Amir Krause
Dojo: Shirokan Dojo / Tel Aviv Israel
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 643
Israel
Offline
Re: Aikido vs. Kickboxing (video)

Very nice Demo

As to those who complained on not doing it faster or with resistence. Seeig this demp I was reminded of my teacher reharsing for a similar demo when I was starting to learn. He took one of his Advanced Aikido & Karate students (My teacher teaches both, and judo, for over 30 years) and worked with him on the show, They started workign faster and faster, my teacher did a technique on a kick, the student did not respond in time. I think they actually did the show in the end, but much, much slower.

The falls from kicks are nasty, and knee locks in those situations are even moe dangerous then on the ground.

Thus, this was a Great demo.

Amir
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2007, 10:47 AM   #6
salim
Location: Greensboro North Carolina
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido vs. Kickboxing (video)

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
Very nice Demo

As to those who complained on not doing it faster or with resistence. Seeig this demp I was reminded of my teacher reharsing for a similar demo when I was starting to learn. He took one of his Advanced Aikido & Karate students (My teacher teaches both, and judo, for over 30 years) and worked with him on the show, They started workign faster and faster, my teacher did a technique on a kick, the student did not respond in time. I think they actually did the show in the end, but much, much slower.

The falls from kicks are nasty, and knee locks in those situations are even moe dangerous then on the ground.

Thus, this was a Great demo.

Amir
Demonstrations don't really let you know if the technique will work. They give you a false sense of effectiveness. Sensi Hiroshi Isoyama found this out when training with American Military officers. The American military officers were able to step over him simply resist in such a way that the technique didn't work. He had to make significant changes to make some techniques work or not use some techniques at all because they don't work on every person. All Aiki techniques don't work on every person. You must train freestyle with your opponents to test your techniques effectiveness. You must learn what really works and what doesn't in a full competition fight.

Demonstrations are just that, rehearsed sequence of movements. Free style, punches, kicks, locks, chokes and throws that you don't see coming or you do see, but require some immediate reaction is crucial to test a techniques real effectiveness. Yes sometimes a person will be hurt or injured. Perhaps wearing some protective gear if you have the fear factor will help decrease the risk of injury. Demonstrations isn't real fighting.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2007, 12:43 PM   #7
Roman Kremianski
Dojo: Toronto Aikikai
Location: Toronto, Canada
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 404
Canada
Offline
Re: Aikido vs. Kickboxing (video)

Quote:
Speed and power from the Uke will be countered with speed and power from the Nage. And people will get injured...
Same thing applies for resisting.
Which is bad for training.
Welcome to martial arts.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2007, 04:34 PM   #8
Dewey
Location: St. Louis, MO
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 179
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido vs. Kickboxing (video)

Yeah, the video was OK, but as other posters observed...it was just a demo. You can't suspend your disbelief too long. I do have training in Shotokan and I do know how to kick, and I wouldn't have attacked like that.

However, that was the point of the demo: to prove that some of the techniques of Aikido can counter frontal and side kicks, perhaps also roundhouse...but no too sure about low kicks, especially to the knees.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2007, 06:33 PM   #9
Lyle Bogin
Dojo: Shin Budo Kai
Location: Manhattan
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 588
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido vs. Kickboxing (video)

Shouldn't that have been labeled aikido vs. karate?

Anyway, some nice techniques in there...
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2007, 06:55 PM   #10
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,113
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido vs. Kickboxing (video)

Quote:
Brian Dewey wrote: View Post
...but no too sure about low kicks, especially to the knees.
I kind of liked the way the aikidoka pivoted/repositioned into the low kick. I remember a buddy of mine who did some Muay Thai describing something similar when blocking. I've done similar stuff when playing against hack-soccer players who mistook my lower legs for soccer balls so often I had to keep it in mind when challenging for a ball.

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2007, 09:27 PM   #11
Mattias Bengtsson
Dojo: Halmstad Aikidoklubb
Location: Halmstad
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 37
Sweden
Offline
Re: Aikido vs. Kickboxing (video)

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Demonstrations are just that, rehearsed sequence of movements. Free style, punches, kicks, locks, chokes and throws that you don't see coming or you do see, but require some immediate reaction is crucial to test a techniques real effectiveness. Yes sometimes a person will be hurt or injured. Perhaps wearing some protective gear if you have the fear factor will help decrease the risk of injury. Demonstrations isn't real fighting.
When you find any protective gear that will protect against broken wrists and dislocated elbows, please let me know.

Uke Iacta Est
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2007, 09:34 PM   #12
Mattias Bengtsson
Dojo: Halmstad Aikidoklubb
Location: Halmstad
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 37
Sweden
Offline
Re: Aikido vs. Kickboxing (video)

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
Welcome to martial arts.
Thank you, that was most kind of you.

But I think there's a difference between getting injured in practice by accident, and getting injured in practice by intent or negligence.

Welcome to the real world.

Uke Iacta Est
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2007, 09:54 PM   #13
Roman Kremianski
Dojo: Toronto Aikikai
Location: Toronto, Canada
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 404
Canada
Offline
Re: Aikido vs. Kickboxing (video)

Not training a certain way because there's a chance of injury is like wanting to join the swim team without getting wet. Nothing wrong with training the way you mentioned...just don't dismiss other training methods as "bad for training". Especially since that's how many others train.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2007, 10:41 PM   #14
salim
Location: Greensboro North Carolina
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido vs. Kickboxing (video)

Quote:
Mattias Bengtsson wrote: View Post
When you find any protective gear that will protect against broken wrists and dislocated elbows, please let me know.
I trained in Burmese Bando prior to training in Aikibudo. Burmese Bando is the cousin to Muy Thai. I trained in Bando for almost five years. While sparring with a guy, I snapped a front round house kick and dislocated the guys left arm. The kick landed perfectly. It wasn't not done intentionally, but let's face it, people will get hurt in real martial arts training. So if you have the fear factor of real training, then perhaps you need to stick to the pretty demos. I rather take the risk of injury, take some bruises and cuts, verses pretty flowery demos. Demos are rehearsed showy, look mom I'm the man and look good. I'm not interested in cool looking demos. I want to learn how to defend myself.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2007, 12:02 AM   #15
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,113
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido vs. Kickboxing (video)

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
I trained in Burmese Bando prior to training in Aikibudo. Burmese Bando is the cousin to Muy Thai. I trained in Bando for almost five years. While sparring with a guy, I snapped a front round house kick and dislocated the guys left arm. The kick landed perfectly. It wasn't not done intentionally, but let's face it, people will get hurt in real martial arts training. So if you have the fear factor of real training, then perhaps you need to stick to the pretty demos. I rather take the risk of injury, take some bruises and cuts, verses pretty flowery demos. Demos are rehearsed showy, look mom I'm the man and look good. I'm not interested in cool looking demos. I want to learn how to defend myself.
Different strokes for different folks, I reckon. You're both making valids points in my opinion. There has to be a balance between intensity and caution. Clearly most "martial artists" aren't training to hurt each other or there wouldn't be any training partners left. I suppose we each have our lines we draw as to how much risk we're willing to abide by. On one hand, you certainly learn how to handle a hit a bit better when you get hit often enough...on the other hand, a rotator cuff injury (or other) can seriously affect your ability to defend yourself in the future. I've had plenty of bruises from Aikido and even bled on the mat...doesn't necessarily mean I gained anything useful. Conditioning the body with impact training has definite benefits; so does sensitivity training.
Demos give an idea of what can be done. Picking them apart is usually a waste of time. It's often like looking at a movie and complaining that it's not real.

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2007, 02:40 AM   #16
Amir Krause
Dojo: Shirokan Dojo / Tel Aviv Israel
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 643
Israel
Offline
Re: Aikido vs. Kickboxing (video)

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Demonstrations don't really let you know if the technique will work. They give you a false sense of effectiveness. Sensi Hiroshi Isoyama found this out when training with American Military officers. The American military officers were able to step over him simply resist in such a way that the technique didn't work. He had to make significant changes to make some techniques work or not use some techniques at all because they don't work on every person. All Aiki techniques don't work on every person. You must train freestyle with your opponents to test your techniques effectiveness. You must learn what really works and what doesn't in a full competition fight.

Demonstrations are just that, rehearsed sequence of movements. Free style, punches, kicks, locks, chokes and throws that you don't see coming or you do see, but require some immediate reaction is crucial to test a techniques real effectiveness. Yes sometimes a person will be hurt or injured. Perhaps wearing some protective gear if you have the fear factor will help decrease the risk of injury. Demonstrations isn't real fighting.
You did notice you were talking of Demonstrations and not Training?
Further, I hate to break the news, but you can rarely prove or disprove the effectiveness of a technique by just practicing, even if you practice "free fighting". This way you could at most learn you don't know how to apply the technique in a situation , which may stem from one of many reasons:

a. YOU have not practiced it enough
Just last week my Sensei asked us to practice Ikkyo against a Jab. Even in this specific and supposedly basic Waza, my partner kept failing while I had no problem at all and kept asking him to increase the pace, retract the Jab and launch a second etc. The reason was simple - he only practiced for a couple of years I have over a decade of practicing on him, and we used a practical variation of the technique which was beyond his abilities to control, so I had to help him make it work.

b. YOU miss identify the opportunity
This is one of my own major areas of development in the last couple of years, learning to correctly identify the opportunities for technique, and then apply the suitable technique. The difficulty is mostly in timing - the technique has to be there with the opportunity, if you have only saw the situation and then started thinking of the suitable technique, made up your mind and started moving, you will always be late and your technique will never work.
In my own mind, this is one of the more difficult part of Aiki to grasp, also known as softness and harmony – utilizing any movement of an attacker for your technique set up. There are higher levels, such as channeling a non-cooperating attacker intent in your favor (much more difficult then the above which only requires you to “read his intent” and act on it).

c. Your teacher never taught you the technique in a practical way
A sad yet true fact for some, is that not all teachers understand \ care about practical techniques. Some teachers never learned how to practically utilize a technique themselves. I remember a Demo by a respected Aikido teacher, who tried to show Aikido is applicable to self defense, simply by increasing the speed in the demo, I was disappointed because Uke kept attacking in a telegraphed way, and gave up his own stability in advance, but the more disappointing thing was the teacher kept his techniques long and based on multiple-steps, and only increased his speed. The techniques were not instantaneous and the circles were huge (which practically left lots of room for Uke to regain his balance and counter).

Consistently practicing with “Free style play” can enhance your ability regarding the identification of opportunities (at least, this is our belief in Korindo Aikido and the one of the reasons we practice Kyoshu/Randori, see here for explanations - http://www.freewebz.com/aikido/lecture/unit6.htm). But, free play is always limited by your own model and safety, thus rendering it unreliable for any proof - I have seen people falling from bad techniques due to unjustified fear of a black belt (happened to me more then once).

There is a great difference between suffering some pain and taking damage, the latter does happen on occasion, but we keep trying to avoid it. Further, we try to use our Kyoshu/Randori as a learning tool for each student, and not as an examination laboratory. We do not test our techniques, we learn!. Free play is a great time to teach one lots of things, from moving while being attacked (a most basic skill most people fail in during their first months. Often people fail even much later once placed under higher pressure then they are used to), through applying a technique in very slow yet non kata/waza settings, and up to reading and then leading\channeling intent. From our experience, we learn much more while practicing free play slowly (it is harder to practice in real slow motion, and not to jump your speed while you understand your mistake and see an hand going into your face).

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
I trained in Burmese Bando prior to training in Aikibudo. Burmese Bando is the cousin to Muy Thai. I trained in Bando for almost five years. While sparring with a guy, I snapped a front round house kick and dislocated the guys left arm. The kick landed perfectly. It wasn't not done intentionally, but let's face it, people will get hurt in real martial arts training. So if you have the fear factor of real training, then perhaps you need to stick to the pretty demos. I rather take the risk of injury, take some bruises and cuts, verses pretty flowery demos. Demos are rehearsed showy, look mom I'm the man and look good. I'm not interested in cool looking demos. I want to learn how to defend myself.
One injury in five years is indicative of relatively safe martial practice. Though of course it depends how major the injury is. However, you should remember joint locks have the nasty tendency of causing more injury with much less power and speed compared to strikes\kicks. As the BJJ people like to say – only light power is required once you have leverage. Striking arts enjoy a great practicing advantage in this respect – you can apply much more power and speed and remain safe.
Further, the safety depends primarily on the control of Tori (the strike performer) and less on Uke (strike reciever) ability to withstand the strike. The same does not hold true for Aikido – the safety relies primarily on Uke ability to evade the technique, Tori has to provide Uke with a safe solution. If Tori will press forward in full speed and strength and Uke will not have the time to respond, damage will occur (as has happened while practicing for the Kicking Demo I wrote about in my previous message) , Uke must not only know how to remain safe, but be able to utilize his safe conduit in the time Tori allocates him. Practicing in free style at full speed (for both sides) can hardly be done safely (as you can read in the link I provided – it is possible but requires a great teacher to stop highly skilled practitioners in time and judge the result).

Lots of people often talk of practicing against resistance. Personally , I fail to see how one could really train Aikido style damaging locks against a resisting person without injury. How can you distinguish muscular and structural resistance? You should overcome the first, but if you crush trough the second you will create damage.

I do have some solutions we utilize, but they actually mean getting into the situation and stop there, before the lock is actually applied. Being Israeli and having learned with Israelis all my life, I always saw people trying to force their way out of a lock (and lots of people going home with very painful joints). As a supposedly advanced student, I have also shown people I can get into advantageous situation against their unschooled resistance while moving much slower then they (had they been schooled – I would not have had a chance while moving slower). But I would be very careful about applying a technique in such situations, I may try, but trying is does not equate doing, I have caused enough damage acting the other way, as I progressed and learned.

Thus I can only repeat my previous response regarding the video – It was a very nice demo of Aikido applied against kicking techniques.

Oh, and I dislike the aikido Vs. ____ label it had. I saw a person demonstrating, not two M.A. fighting (ever seen a M.A. ???)

Amir

Last edited by Amir Krause : 09-16-2007 at 02:43 AM. Reason: spelling
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2007, 06:06 AM   #17
Dewey
Location: St. Louis, MO
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 179
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido vs. Kickboxing (video)

Nice post, Amir! Very well-reasoned and it speaks of experience.

As mentioned in a prior post, I do have training in Shotokan and I do "use" it in the dojo when training for the purposes of offering a sincere attack (i.e. trajectory & range, not intensity) versus stylized and telegraphed attacks. Just as we have guys who have training in boxing, Shorin-ryu, Judo, TKD, etc. including a former Marine Corps CQC instructor (old school WWII/Korean War-era combatives and not LINE or MCMAP) who bring their wealth of information & experience with them and use it on occasion to demonstrate different types of attacks and counters that you might experience "in the real world." We do recognize the distinct possiblity that an attacker, once trapped in some sort of arm lock will most likely try to use their legs to break free of it. That's why I think it's imperative to always consider defenses against kicks.

I always remember O'Sensei's quote concerning kicking and keep it playing in my head when training:

"Ueshiba Sensei used to say, kicking leaves you momentarily on one foot, and for that moment you are in a very weak position. If you were to be swept off your feet, you would be finished. This is why lifting your feet off the ground is crazy."
- from p.79 of Gozo Shioda's book Aikido Shugyo. Source: http://www.tsuki-kage.com/ueshiba.html

Last edited by Dewey : 09-16-2007 at 06:12 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2007, 04:53 PM   #18
salim
Location: Greensboro North Carolina
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido vs. Kickboxing (video)

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
You did notice you were talking of Demonstrations and not Training?
Further, I hate to break the news, but you can rarely prove or disprove the effectiveness of a technique by just practicing, even if you practice "free fighting". This way you could at most learn you don't know how to apply the technique in a situation , which may stem from one of many reasons:

a. YOU have not practiced it enough
Just last week my Sensei asked us to practice Ikkyo against a Jab. Even in this specific and supposedly basic Waza, my partner kept failing while I had no problem at all and kept asking him to increase the pace, retract the Jab and launch a second etc. The reason was simple - he only practiced for a couple of years I have over a decade of practicing on him, and we used a practical variation of the technique which was beyond his abilities to control, so I had to help him make it work.

b. YOU miss identify the opportunity
This is one of my own major areas of development in the last couple of years, learning to correctly identify the opportunities for technique, and then apply the suitable technique. The difficulty is mostly in timing - the technique has to be there with the opportunity, if you have only saw the situation and then started thinking of the suitable technique, made up your mind and started moving, you will always be late and your technique will never work.
In my own mind, this is one of the more difficult part of Aiki to grasp, also known as softness and harmony -- utilizing any movement of an attacker for your technique set up. There are higher levels, such as channeling a non-cooperating attacker intent in your favor (much more difficult then the above which only requires you to "read his intent" and act on it).

c. Your teacher never taught you the technique in a practical way
A sad yet true fact for some, is that not all teachers understand \ care about practical techniques. Some teachers never learned how to practically utilize a technique themselves. I remember a Demo by a respected Aikido teacher, who tried to show Aikido is applicable to self defense, simply by increasing the speed in the demo, I was disappointed because Uke kept attacking in a telegraphed way, and gave up his own stability in advance, but the more disappointing thing was the teacher kept his techniques long and based on multiple-steps, and only increased his speed. The techniques were not instantaneous and the circles were huge (which practically left lots of room for Uke to regain his balance and counter).

Consistently practicing with "Free style play" can enhance your ability regarding the identification of opportunities (at least, this is our belief in Korindo Aikido and the one of the reasons we practice Kyoshu/Randori, see here for explanations - http://www.freewebz.com/aikido/lecture/unit6.htm). But, free play is always limited by your own model and safety, thus rendering it unreliable for any proof - I have seen people falling from bad techniques due to unjustified fear of a black belt (happened to me more then once).

There is a great difference between suffering some pain and taking damage, the latter does happen on occasion, but we keep trying to avoid it. Further, we try to use our Kyoshu/Randori as a learning tool for each student, and not as an examination laboratory. We do not test our techniques, we learn!. Free play is a great time to teach one lots of things, from moving while being attacked (a most basic skill most people fail in during their first months. Often people fail even much later once placed under higher pressure then they are used to), through applying a technique in very slow yet non kata/waza settings, and up to reading and then leading\channeling intent. From our experience, we learn much more while practicing free play slowly (it is harder to practice in real slow motion, and not to jump your speed while you understand your mistake and see an hand going into your face).

One injury in five years is indicative of relatively safe martial practice. Though of course it depends how major the injury is. However, you should remember joint locks have the nasty tendency of causing more injury with much less power and speed compared to strikes\kicks. As the BJJ people like to say -- only light power is required once you have leverage. Striking arts enjoy a great practicing advantage in this respect -- you can apply much more power and speed and remain safe.
Further, the safety depends primarily on the control of Tori (the strike performer) and less on Uke (strike reciever) ability to withstand the strike. The same does not hold true for Aikido -- the safety relies primarily on Uke ability to evade the technique, Tori has to provide Uke with a safe solution. If Tori will press forward in full speed and strength and Uke will not have the time to respond, damage will occur (as has happened while practicing for the Kicking Demo I wrote about in my previous message) , Uke must not only know how to remain safe, but be able to utilize his safe conduit in the time Tori allocates him. Practicing in free style at full speed (for both sides) can hardly be done safely (as you can read in the link I provided -- it is possible but requires a great teacher to stop highly skilled practitioners in time and judge the result).

Lots of people often talk of practicing against resistance. Personally , I fail to see how one could really train Aikido style damaging locks against a resisting person without injury. How can you distinguish muscular and structural resistance? You should overcome the first, but if you crush trough the second you will create damage.

I do have some solutions we utilize, but they actually mean getting into the situation and stop there, before the lock is actually applied. Being Israeli and having learned with Israelis all my life, I always saw people trying to force their way out of a lock (and lots of people going home with very painful joints). As a supposedly advanced student, I have also shown people I can get into advantageous situation against their unschooled resistance while moving much slower then they (had they been schooled -- I would not have had a chance while moving slower). But I would be very careful about applying a technique in such situations, I may try, but trying is does not equate doing, I have caused enough damage acting the other way, as I progressed and learned.

Thus I can only repeat my previous response regarding the video -- It was a very nice demo of Aikido applied against kicking techniques.

Oh, and I dislike the aikido Vs. ____ label it had. I saw a person demonstrating, not two M.A. fighting (ever seen a M.A. ???)

Amir
I have trained in martial arts for over a decade. I'm not new to the methods of demonstrations and sparring. When I was an active member of the American Bando Association, sparring and demonstrations were routine occurrences, YES THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE. The Bando Association even took it a step further with the national tournaments, FULL HAND to HAND combat. Let me tell you, when you have a guy throwing all kinds of punches, kicks, throws and chokes in a ring, there is nothing rehearsed about it. Bando fighters are boxers and we fought in a boxing ring. We used locks too. The fights were 5 rounds 3 minutes each. You never knew what the guy was going to try. What kind of throw or how was he going to kick. What type of choke, lock was he going to execute. You simply responded to the kick, punch, throw or choke. The method in which you responded is based on how well you have trained. These ring fights were great experience. Sometimes bad blood would spell into the ring, no longer a professional fight and became personal. It was almost as though, I was fighting a guy in the streets. I'm sorry, but rehearsed demonstration will never give you the ability to respond in that manner. The simple truth is demonstration are rehearsed. You are told what technique to execute. Communication of some sort is known, you have knowledge as to what is going to proceed.

In the Bando demonstrations we always communicated to the defending person what kind of kick, punch, throw or choke to expect. They had time to respond, time to block, redirect the energy, throw or punch back with full knowledge. We wanted the demonstration to be impressive to invite new comers to the art. We wanted the demonstrations to be sensational, pretty and cool looking. The realty of applying some of the techniques in the ring were completely different. When you are in the ring, it's serious business. You mention timing and the difficult of it. You will NEVER get the PERCISION timing from a DEMONSTRSTION. Only real fighting will give you that. You have to fight to get precision timing.

Sensei Hiroshi Isoyama, found this out when training with American Military Officers. Not a demonstration, but actual fighting, training. Listen, this man has more experience in Aikido than you and me put together. When he tried to apply koshinage on some of the American military officers they would just step over him. He tried to throw them, but he wasn't able to. There height was a factor for him. He changed his fighting technique by using his shoulder to execute the throw, a Judo inspired technique. He learned this from training, fighting , not a rehearsed demonstration.

My Aikido instructor has over 20 years of training and teaches the art from a realistic perspective. He's sensei was Ali Hakeem, Shidoin. The methodology in which they use is definitely practical and experience is not a question.

Injury will happen with real martial arts fighting. My current sensei has had broken arms, teeth knocked out and pull ligaments. It's martial arts and people get hurt. We are training for self defense. The video was a mere example of rehearsed demonstration. I would like to see you try some of those moves in the video against some of American Bando guys, under the current leadership of Maung Gi.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2007, 08:45 PM   #19
G DiPierro
Location: Ohio
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 365
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido vs. Kickboxing (video)

This video is fairly typical aikido in that the techniques are overly complex, unrealistic, and only possible with the assistance of a trained and compliant uke. The only thing novel about it is that he is doing these techniques against kicking attacks, which are usually not seen in aikido. Otherwise, there is nothing new here.

The title is also misleading since this is not aikido "vs" kickboxing at all, but merely aikido performed (and that word is very descriptive) using compliant kicking attacks as the initial movement. Had he actually been fighting against a decent kickboxer I seriously doubt that he could get off any of the techniques demonstrated in the video.

Last edited by G DiPierro : 09-16-2007 at 08:49 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2007, 06:19 AM   #20
Michael Douglas
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 404
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Aikido vs. Kickboxing (video)

...and some of the defenses in this demo were suicidal.
The kneeling (00:10) to let a roundhouse go over the head? Hilarious.
The catching of a high roundhouse (00:15) involved no effective defense of the head and a properly distanced kick would have landed on the head/jaw/neck with a high probability of KO.
Blatant and awful tanking at (00:26,28,29,31). Shouldn't be allowed!
The defense against low kicks appears to be no defense at all, I must be missing something.
Lastly, the kicker is obviously an aikidoka too and loves the flashy falling down bits.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2007, 12:39 PM   #21
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido vs. Kickboxing (video)

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
You did notice you were talking of Demonstrations and not Training?
Further, I hate to break the news, but you can rarely prove or disprove the effectiveness of a technique by just practicing, even if you practice "free fighting". This way you could at most learn you don't know how to apply the technique in a situation , which may stem from one of many reasons:
I can't agree with you, I'm sorry. I did thousands of not hundreds of thousands of armbars. Prior to starting bjj in judo and in aikido (different kinds of armbars, but still). I never used armbars in judo because a pin was a safer route on the ground. It took me months in bjj to get good at armbars. I learned how to do them not from the tons of static drills (which helped show me what to do), but by learning to deal with the resistance a person will give to defend these armbars. The same is true with my jab. I have jabed focus mits, bags, the air, static people, water, etc. I have been jabing stuff from my teenage tkd days, to now as I get close to 30 years old. When I get in the ring with a 1 year boxer, he can hit me with the jab, I have problems. Why? I've never learned how to hit someone in the face who was trying to stop me and hit me back. The act of sparing is teaching me how to use this motion of the jab. No instructor can teach it. It requires me to get punched in the face and punch people in the face until I learn it.

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
a. YOU have not practiced it enough
Just last week my Sensei asked us to practice Ikkyo against a Jab. Even in this specific and supposedly basic Waza, my partner kept failing while I had no problem at all and kept asking him to increase the pace, retract the Jab and launch a second etc. The reason was simple - he only practiced for a couple of years I have over a decade of practicing on him, and we used a practical variation of the technique which was beyond his abilities to control, so I had to help him make it work.
True, time will help develop technique. But personally I had more effective technique in a few months of bjj and judo then most people with years of non-sparing martial arts training. I've seen guys come to train with us with 5, 10, even 15 years exp and just get overwhelmed. They are very technique when drilling, but they do not know how to do their techniques. And if self defense is a concern (for me it is not), do you want to be able to defend yourself in a few months, or in 10 years?

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
b. YOU miss identify the opportunity
This is one of my own major areas of development in the last couple of years, learning to correctly identify the opportunities for technique, and then apply the suitable technique. The difficulty is mostly in timing - the technique has to be there with the opportunity, if you have only saw the situation and then started thinking of the suitable technique, made up your mind and started moving, you will always be late and your technique will never work.
In my own mind, this is one of the more difficult part of Aiki to grasp, also known as softness and harmony -- utilizing any movement of an attacker for your technique set up. There are higher levels, such as channeling a non-cooperating attacker intent in your favor (much more difficult then the above which only requires you to "read his intent" and act on it).
I can't argue that this is a problem for new students. It took me a long time to learn how to setup judo throws properly. I'm just now getting the hang of doing judo without thinking. However, I think the reason it took so long was because my previous instructors focused on uchi komi rather then randori. So while I was told to do X when a person goes Y, I didn't learn it with my body until I got to work it out on the mat against a person bent on drilling me into the ground.

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
c. Your teacher never taught you the technique in a practical way
A sad yet true fact for some, is that not all teachers understand \ care about practical techniques. Some teachers never learned how to practically utilize a technique themselves. I remember a Demo by a respected Aikido teacher, who tried to show Aikido is applicable to self defense, simply by increasing the speed in the demo, I was disappointed because Uke kept attacking in a telegraphed way, and gave up his own stability in advance, but the more disappointing thing was the teacher kept his techniques long and based on multiple-steps, and only increased his speed. The techniques were not instantaneous and the circles were huge (which practically left lots of room for Uke to regain his balance and counter).
I agree, this can be a major problem, even in the bjj world I have met teachers who do long drawn out stuff to look cool, vs training the basics that work at all skill levels.

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
Consistently practicing with "Free style play" can enhance your ability regarding the identification of opportunities (at least, this is our belief in Korindo Aikido and the one of the reasons we practice Kyoshu/Randori, see here for explanations - http://www.freewebz.com/aikido/lecture/unit6.htm). But, free play is always limited by your own model and safety, thus rendering it unreliable for any proof - I have seen people falling from bad techniques due to unjustified fear of a black belt (happened to me more then once).
That is a lesson in itself about effective technique. Sometimes it's what you can make people think you can do, rather then what you actually can. Thus the blackbelt can throw you with a crappy technique by leading your mind into thinking it is a strong one. Good life lesson for the person getting throw, and good training for him to learn to overcome it.

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
Lots of people often talk of practicing against resistance. Personally , I fail to see how one could really train Aikido style damaging locks against a resisting person without injury. How can you distinguish muscular and structural resistance? You should overcome the first, but if you crush trough the second you will create damage.
It's funny, I use these damaging locks all the time against my training partners in sparing. They tap out, we reset and keep going. There have been sprains and slight injures from people who were not used to or ready for them, but nobody is crippled or dead as I've been lead to believe. Of course I have the will power to give up a technique if it looks like the other person is being pig headed. It's not about wining or losing. I will choke or armbar many a noob and just let go and go to another technique rather then hurt them because they are too new to know when to tap. I still learned the effectiveness, I still learned about the setup and how people will defend. And I learned about control and keeping my ego in check.

But anyways, sparing is a lot more then just body conditioning or exercise. It is the best way to teach someone how to learn to apply the theory they are learning everyday in class. I feel sorry for those out there who do not understand why they are doing it and what they can gain with the right mindset. I feel even more sorry for those who don't do it at all.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2007, 02:45 PM   #22
Michael Douglas
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 404
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Aikido vs. Kickboxing (video)

Nice post Don, I especially like this bit ;
Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Of course I have the will power to give up a technique if it looks like the other person is being pig headed. It's not about wining or losing. I will choke or armbar many a noob and just let go and go to another technique rather then hurt them because they are too new to know when to tap. I still learned the effectiveness, I still learned about the setup and how people will defend. And I learned about control and keeping my ego in check.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2007, 03:18 PM   #23
G DiPierro
Location: Ohio
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 365
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido vs. Kickboxing (video)

Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
...and some of the defenses in this demo were suicidal.
The kneeling (00:10) to let a roundhouse go over the head? Hilarious.
The catching of a high roundhouse (00:15) involved no effective defense of the head and a properly distanced kick would have landed on the head/jaw/neck with a high probability of KO.
Blatant and awful tanking at (00:26,28,29,31). Shouldn't be allowed!
The defense against low kicks appears to be no defense at all, I must be missing something.
Lastly, the kicker is obviously an aikidoka too and loves the flashy falling down bits.
Good analysis. The technique at the 0:30 mark was particularly egregious. Nage taps uke on the side of the neck in a way that has no physical effect at all, and uke takes a forward roll. It's a like Pavlovian response: whenever nage makes a movement that indicates that he intends for uke to fall, uke responds by taking a fall. Might as well just ring a bell and get rid of any pretense of actual technique (like this). Sadly, this kind of thing is very common in aikido, so I can¡Çt say that this clip is any worse than the majority of the aikido out there. Most aikido has become a demonstration art that will not work outside the dojo (and in many cases, won¡Çt even work in other aikido dojos that do not belong to a specific style or organization).

The main problem with this clip is the suggestion by the title that these techniques would actually work against a kickboxer. I don¡Çt think that was the intent of the person who made these clips, and I suspect the attacker in this video is not a kickboxer at all but an aikido student of the person demonstrating in the clip who probably has a little bit of experience in an art like karate or TKD but has by now been well trained to fall at the right times to make his teacher look good. The title seems to have been an invention of whomever posted this to youtube originally; it has been reposted by the creator (along with a second installment that has a few techniques that could actually work against a real attack) more recently under the less ambitious title "geri-waza".

Last edited by G DiPierro : 09-17-2007 at 03:22 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2007, 03:27 PM   #24
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,113
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido vs. Kickboxing (video)

Don, from what I can tell, you're truly a student and that's what makes you a good teacher. I tend to really like your posts. Thank you.
Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
The act of sparing is teaching me how to use this motion of the jab. No instructor can teach it. It requires me to get punched in the face and punch people in the face until I learn it.
In a nutshell, I think the problem with every art lies with the gap between thinking about technique and simply acting. We learn by thinking about how we're oriented to our partner and the step by step process in which we accomplish the prescribed movements. This tends to cause one to think about what they're doing instead of organically doing it. However, I don't think one has to get punched in the face to learn how to avoid it.

Quote:
But anyways, sparing is a lot more then just body conditioning or exercise. It is the best way to teach someone how to learn to apply the theory they are learning everyday in class. I feel sorry for those out there who do not understand why they are doing it and what they can gain with the right mindset. I feel even more sorry for those who don't do it at all
I don't like to use absolutes like "best" but I would agree it can be a very good way of doing things. I don't spar in my dojo, but I do get to experience reversals whenever a fellow student senses an opening (up to a point). This kind of spontaneous learning, I think, accomplishes most of what sparing is meant to accomplish. Speed is the only thing I think it lacks, but even that graduates over time as one student becomes familiar with what another can handle.
Getting the feel for Aikido is what the training is about; not techniques. Techniques are vehicles for that feeling and I know I've surprised more than one of my buddies (and myself) with how i responded to their attempts at sparing...and they have a lot more real-life fight experience than I have ever had (0 wins; 0 losses; 0 draws).
Take care,
Matt

Last edited by mathewjgano : 09-17-2007 at 03:33 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Handmade Aikido Gifts - Handmade functional ceramic art with aikido themes



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Baseline skillset eyrie Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 1633 05-23-2008 02:35 PM
Ki, Aiki, Aikido. The 'internal stuff' that never left Aikido Ecosamurai Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 74 03-22-2007 10:22 AM
Aikido as External Art -or- Where's the Chewy Center? ChrisMoses Training 130 03-17-2007 04:21 PM
For Ted Ehara - Boundary of your aikido? billybob General 123 12-18-2006 05:52 AM
Omoto-kyo Theology senshincenter Spiritual 77 12-04-2005 10:50 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:23 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate