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Old 08-21-2007, 05:45 AM   #1
dalen7
 
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Effectiveness of Aikido

You know, from the get go it was interesting for me to try to 'evaluate' the effectiveness of Aikido.

Simply put, boards and forums (even comments here) led me to question the true effectiveness of Aikido in a fight.

First let me put it this way. From a spiritual point, and really a true point...the conflict can end before it starts if it ends within yourself.
And Aikido can be used as a point to learn such a lesson by instilling a confidence.

My experience is that fights stem from fear...and then stupid stuff happens.

But let me get past this. Lets just say you want, for the fun, to beat the crap out of someone. (Lets say boxing match scenerio...not just a bully type thing).
In this situation, how well would aikido work?

Well, from what I have experienced, Aikido is effective - however it depends on the cirucmstances.
I would not go in a boxing ring and use it against a boxer (at least I couldnt imagine it at this point), and this is including if gloves were off so you could effectively use aikido.

Aikido seems to be useful for the 'brute' and bully that goes up and grabs your shirt or arm. I find it ironic that people think this would never happen, but I can attest 99% of every attack that has happened to me has been like this. And its from the 'bully' mentality.

Now if it was a 'ring' sport, I would say it may work sometimes and sometimes not...but you would need to combine it with thai boxing, bjj, etc.

So a sport like MMA, people are right, you wont get anywhere with it. But if you are in normal everyday situations where some 'thug' comes up - I think its a very effective sport. Especially in situations where you dont want to bloody up the person attacking you.

Well, my 2 cents on my perspective on where aikidos effectiveness lies, in response to all that I have read basically pointing at its useless nature.

and from a spiritual perspective, again, its useful to as I pointed out at the beginning.

Peace

dAlen
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Old 08-21-2007, 05:52 AM   #2
Aristeia
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido

My favourite thing about aikido was always the range of choices it gave you depending on the situation. I also think you've hit the nail on the head with something else - I've always thought the appropriate response to "a BJJer would kick an aikidokas ass!" was "I believe you, but so what?"

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-21-2007, 06:11 AM   #3
Amir Krause
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido

It is not the Aikido or any other M.A.

It is the person!!!

Some people could use Yoga to become great fighters, others would not become fighters whatever has been done.

The person you are will also determine the way you practice. Aikido can be practiced against punches and can teach you to deal with them effectively.

A ring situation is very specific in the sense most people would like to limit the damage they inflict in the ring, or at least have control over it without in a smooth manner (as in BJJ). Aikido (this also holds true for many other M.A.) does not help you to achieve this unless you are much better then the other person on the overall (force, weight, size, swiftness, skill, experience, attitude, etc.)

Amir
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Old 08-21-2007, 06:37 AM   #4
Christopher Gee
 
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido

Its not just the person, its the training methods used and the opportunities given to the nage (if you like) to train with like minded people.
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Old 08-21-2007, 07:02 AM   #5
dalen7
 
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post

A ring situation is very specific...

Amir
I guess overall it seems that I cannot fathom some of these boxers trying to catch someones hand to apply nikkyo or what-not. (that is given the boxers had their fingers freed to even attempt such a move.)

It seems enough to just avoid a fast moving arm, let along trying to catch it (and I use the term lightly) and apply a technique on them.

Whereas, its far more practical in the situation where someone is in your face and starts pushing you around, grabbing you,etc.

So in a way, each fighting style really is 'specific' in its range of effectiveness, and by that I mean the range in which it would work under 'normal' circumstances.

Peace

dAlen
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Old 08-21-2007, 07:53 AM   #6
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
It is the person!!!
Ditto.
Yea, what he said.
Its the person, not the style.
The question isn't if Aikido is effective, it is if "your" Aikido is.
IMHO, mine is.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 08-21-2007, 08:08 AM   #7
salim
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido

Dalen Johnson,

What particular style of Aikido are you referring to? Perhaps this depends more on the methodology of your Aikido. Yoseikan, Aikibudo and Yoshikan are very effective in a fight. A lot of Aikido schools have removed atemi waza, which is part of the problem.
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Old 08-21-2007, 08:18 AM   #8
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido

Quote:
So a sport like MMA, people are right, you wont get anywhere with it.
I think many MMA folks who've put people to sleep peacefully and without injuring them would disagree.
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Old 08-21-2007, 08:54 AM   #9
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido

Quote:
I guess overall it seems that I cannot fathom some of these boxers trying to catch someones hand to apply nikkyo or what-not.
Look up Kuroiwa Sensei on AikidoJournal.com.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 08-21-2007, 09:06 AM   #10
Amir Krause
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido

Quote:
Its not just the person, its the training methods used and the opportunities given to the nage (if you like) to train with like minded people
The person decides the location he would like to train at, thus deciding on the nature of training methods. If one does not like those, he would often leave to another place.

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
I guess overall it seems that I cannot fathom some of these boxers trying to catch someones hand to apply nikkyo or what-not. (that is given the boxers had their fingers freed to even attempt such a move.)

It seems enough to just avoid a fast moving arm, let along trying to catch it (and I use the term lightly) and apply a technique on them.
Well, the secret is once again in the practice.

We practice against punches all the time. We do not try to catch the punch (an error we keep facing among beginners)!
If one starts by going after the hand, the response is closer to the Philipino\Wing-Tsun approach of intercepting the punch and then redirecting it to achieve Kuzushi, from this position one can continue to apply some techniques immediately, or move to a grasp, depending on the exact situation development.
Note that if he punches you, you can also not be there (preferably with a ready hand for redirection) and apply your technique on any other part of his body (like his head).

By the way, the above approaches are not unique, they exist in multiple other M.A. which teach about confronting punching attacks. And I can see no reason an Aikidoka would not be able respond along the same lines as a Karateka.

Amir
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Old 08-21-2007, 09:14 AM   #11
Bill Brownlow
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post

...Aikido seems to be useful for the 'brute' and bully that goes up and grabs your shirt or arm. I find it ironic that people think this would never happen, but I can attest 99% of every attack that has happened to me has been like this. And its from the 'bully' mentality.

Now if it was a 'ring' sport, I would say it may work sometimes and sometimes not...but you would need to combine it with thai boxing, bjj, etc....
I think this is why these Aikido vs bjj (or other art) discussions are kind of moot.

IMO, Aikido is a very effective martial art for self defense. I admit that my experience with Aikido is very limited (a few fun months), but my understanding is that Aikido's effectiveness comes from a fully committed attack (good uke?) which is what you are going to encounter "on the street". If I want to mug/rape you, I'm not going to pop a few light jabs in your face to get you to open up for a combination or takedown. Im going straight for the haymaker, the purse grab, the lapel or bearhug i.e. a committed attack. The Aikidoka is adept at the committed attack and not as trained at the half hearted attack.

In the same aspect the more sport adapted martial arts like bjj rarely make an initial committed attack. We are taught to feint, push/pull, grab/let go to work for an opportunity to make an attack. If you overly commit, you're going to get caught attitude. Although adaptable to a fighting situation, its not fighting. The bjjer is adept at the half hearted attack and not as trained at the committed attack.

The biggest challenge for someone who has a some skill in bjj is to grapple with a committed non-grappler coming at him like a bat outta hell. I see it all the time when complete new guys come to our club. Its almost like "hey you're not supposed to do that when I do this".

This has become my biggest thrill and challenge in training. Surprisingly, I count my biggest personal victory as rolling with a brand new white belt ex-Marine (5'10" 220lbs brick sh**house) who was there to prove something to everyone and relying only technique to carry me through, not the one and only time I caught my instructor and he tapped.

Thanks for reading
Bill
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Old 08-21-2007, 01:52 PM   #12
dalen7
 
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido

Quite a few responses, and not quite what I had expected.
Interesting to see peoples take on this issue in general.

- Bill your comment about the mugger,etc., I think I agree with.
Aikido tends to work with this 'brute' thug style mentality.
Also point well taken about not being committed to soon...but those that 'train' I suppose will be used to this, so in a 'ring' you loose that advantage.

- Amir, so your familiar with wing-chun and am I correct that you say they try to grab? Interesting indeed...I wonder if that would work practically, again if it did I suppose you could apply your aikido (or in that case wing chun techniques...Im just not sold on it that is that feasible for the 'average' guy. But again, I dont know, it would be interesting to see examples. And this is what we seem to lack is examples from Wingchun and Aikido in the 'ring'. Albeit I suppose a lot of techniqes would really 'damage' someone in a 'real' all out fight.

- Ron, i will try to do a search in google to see if there is a video of the sensei you talked about. Does he demo against a boxer type or something like that?

- Roman, I guess I miss understood you before. I thought you would be one to say Aikido would not be effective for 'ring' type work, but something like thai boxing with BJJ. Good to understand you better, so you do think Aikido can be used in a MMA (and I mean on a 'regular' basis and not by 'chance' of getting a move right

- salim, I have no idea what kind Im referring to.
Im supposed to be part of some Aiki group that has mean learning ki stuff along with atemi. What a combo...so maybe they are their own unique beast.

Sorry if I didnt cover all responses, they are quite thought provoking indeed and I appreciate the response.

Indeed I came back from one of my most disappointing lessons yet. More of a communication thing...or frustration at not being able to express myself to clarify things with my sempai...it would help my training...but thats neither here nor there, its something I need to do myself. Maybe it would be useful for me to pick up some gloves and vent my frustration on a bag. lol But I digress...

Peace

dAlen
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Old 08-21-2007, 02:26 PM   #13
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido

Quote:
Ron, i will try to do a search in google to see if there is a video of the sensei you talked about. Does he demo against a boxer type or something like that?
Kuroiwa Sensei was an ex-boxer. Many of the waza he taught apparently used boxing movements from hooks and jabs as entries into aikido waza. I think Ellis Amdur spent some time training with him. Maybe he can go into more depth on that "style".

Best,
Ron

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Old 08-21-2007, 03:09 PM   #14
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido

Quote:
Good to understand you better, so you do think Aikido can be used in a MMA (and I mean on a 'regular' basis and not by 'chance' of getting a move right
Erm...where did I say that? I merely meant that just because MMA practitioners train to otherwise brutalize their opponents doesn't mean they can't use their skills to overcome someone peacefully.

(e.g clinches, chokes, wrist/arm control)

(In respone to your comment stating that MMA is usless in real situations because you don't want to "bloody" the other person up)

Last edited by Roman Kremianski : 08-21-2007 at 03:13 PM.
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Old 08-21-2007, 04:04 PM   #15
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido

IMNSHO the martial arts that are best for sport/entertainment are least suited for real life.

This makes sense to me.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 08-21-2007, 05:58 PM   #16
Mike_SMD
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido

"... the Aikidoka is adept at the committed attack and not as trained at the half hearted attack.

In the same aspect the more sport adapted martial arts like bjj rarely make an initial committed attack. We are taught to feint, push/pull, grab/let go to work for an opportunity to make an attack... "

----------

Wow.
Full credit goes out for such a poignantly insightful observation.

And it heads right into the concept of defining arts as either combative or sporting in character. It's an old definition and as such I won't go into it in too much depth but the difference between a cockfight and a slaughter are fairly obvious. In the one case you try to provide for a fair and equitable showcase of skill and in the other you simply try to destroy an opponent as quickly as possible.

Aikido tends to shy away from sporting applications and as such has a much stronger lean towards the slaughter end of the scale. Sure, we can mitigate things as far as possible to avoid injuring an attacker too much but there's a point where the types of locks and throws housed in the classical repertoir have to be respected as legitimately dangerous weapons in their very own right.

I'm mooted as to which approach (sport vs combative) is better though, I'm heavily reminded of the early history of Judo (another capable art unjustly overlooked these days) and strongly suspect that one trains best if they train for a specific environment. Duelling requires a highly specific and heavily adapted skillset if one is to be successful, but it's no less specialized than the skillset required to function adequately in a good old fashioned bar brawl... just different.

All in all, a very good conversation to read and be a part of.

Mike.
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Old 08-21-2007, 06:59 PM   #17
Aristeia
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote: View Post
IMNSHO the martial arts that are best for sport/entertainment are least suited for real life.

This makes sense to me.
boxing, kickboxing wrestling judo bjj no good for real life? hmm...

Conversely - aikido looks real pretty in movies - does that mean that its no good in real life either?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-21-2007, 10:25 PM   #18
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido

If you really want to know if your Aikido is effective, go into a bar some saturday night and pick a fight with the biggest meanest person you can find.

Be sure to let us know what happens.

David
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Old 08-21-2007, 11:20 PM   #19
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido

Quote:
the martial arts that are best for sport/entertainment are least suited for real life.

This makes sense to me.
You're right, striking/wrestling/grappling would never work in "real" life, only in fabricated fantasy life. Because real life demands real martial arts, not this flashy entertainment crap.

Glad there are folks like you on board here.


Last edited by Roman Kremianski : 08-21-2007 at 11:23 PM.
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Old 08-21-2007, 11:39 PM   #20
Aristeia
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido

come on roman, everyone knows that 1-step sparring is the answer to your self defence needs....

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-21-2007, 11:43 PM   #21
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido

Do you know what kind of legal trouble I can get in for using that stuff though? I mean, it's illegal in like, 79 states.

Too deadly for the real world.
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Old 08-22-2007, 12:07 AM   #22
salim
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
You know, from the get go it was interesting for me to try to 'evaluate' the effectiveness of Aikido.

Simply put, boards and forums (even comments here) led me to question the true effectiveness of Aikido in a fight.

First let me put it this way. From a spiritual point, and really a true point...the conflict can end before it starts if it ends within yourself.
And Aikido can be used as a point to learn such a lesson by instilling a confidence.

My experience is that fights stem from fear...and then stupid stuff happens.

But let me get past this. Lets just say you want, for the fun, to beat the crap out of someone. (Lets say boxing match scenerio...not just a bully type thing).
In this situation, how well would aikido work?

Well, from what I have experienced, Aikido is effective - however it depends on the cirucmstances.
I would not go in a boxing ring and use it against a boxer (at least I couldnt imagine it at this point), and this is including if gloves were off so you could effectively use aikido.

Aikido seems to be useful for the 'brute' and bully that goes up and grabs your shirt or arm. I find it ironic that people think this would never happen, but I can attest 99% of every attack that has happened to me has been like this. And its from the 'bully' mentality.

Now if it was a 'ring' sport, I would say it may work sometimes and sometimes not...but you would need to combine it with thai boxing, bjj, etc.

So a sport like MMA, people are right, you wont get anywhere with it. But if you are in normal everyday situations where some 'thug' comes up - I think its a very effective sport. Especially in situations where you dont want to bloody up the person attacking you.

Well, my 2 cents on my perspective on where aikidos effectiveness lies, in response to all that I have read basically pointing at its useless nature.

and from a spiritual perspective, again, its useful to as I pointed out at the beginning.

Peace

dAlen
I suggest you read the history of Aikido, before the heavy influence of the Shinto religion, which is it's philosophical bases today. Aikido post WWII was very combat ready, originally called Aikibudo. Perhaps visiting some of the local dojos from the Yoseikan and Yoshinkan organizations will give you the perspective for effectiveness that you are looking for.

The Aikikai and Ki organizations are not heavily advocates for self defense. If self defense is what you are looking for from your Aikido, then Yoseikan or Yoshinkan Aikido maybe a better alternative.

If peace, love and happiness is you focus, then you have the right organization, Ki. Your Aikido is are ready working for you, instead of fighting, love someone.
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Old 08-22-2007, 02:59 AM   #23
dalen7
 
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
(In respone to your comment stating that MMA is usless in real situations because you don't want to "bloody" the other person up)
I stand corrected and shows my biased thought as to what is effective. I was thinking just thai boxing aspects and not BJJ. - again my mistake.

Peace

dAlen
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Old 08-22-2007, 03:06 AM   #24
dalen7
 
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
Do you know what kind of legal trouble I can get in for using that stuff though? I mean, it's illegal in like, 79 states.

Too deadly for the real world.
o.k. Im lost, what is illegal in the states? shooting someone? - I missed something between the 1-step attack post and this one.

Peace

dAlen

- sorry I posted back to back, should have included this comment with the other, anyway...
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Old 08-22-2007, 04:43 AM   #25
Amir Krause
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
- Amir, so your familiar with wing-chun and am I correct that you say they try to grab? Interesting indeed...I wonder if that would work practically, again if it did I suppose you could apply your aikido (or in that case wing chun techniques...Im just not sold on it that is that feasible for the 'average' guy. But again, I dont know, it would be interesting to see examples. And this is what we seem to lack is examples from Wingchun and Aikido in the 'ring'. Albeit I suppose a lot of techniqes would really 'damage' someone in a 'real' all out fight.
Sorry, you miss-understood me:
I am not that familiar with Wing-Tsun or Arnis, but I did have a short seminar or two with them, and saw their concept of "intercept", our approach is very similiar.

We do not train for a ring, but we do practice a lot against punching situaitons, and not only against grabs.

Amir
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