Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-13-2007, 12:27 PM   #1
eric1235711
Location: S縊 Paulo
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 7
Brazil
Offline
Arrow original quotes in japanese

hello

Im looking for an original quote in japanese

I read it in Richard Moon's book, I tried to contact people of his dojo (aikido of marine) by the website's forms, but I didn't get response...

the quote I'm looking for is
Quote:
"Aikido is not an art to fight with enemies and defeat them. It is a way to lead all human beings to live in harmony with each other as though everyone were one family."
I asked to my father to do the traduction but he said that "retraducting" it to japanese can become different of the original one or too strange ...

I hope you can help,

thanks in advance!
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2007, 11:10 AM   #2
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,837
Offline
Re: original quotes in japanese

Although it's not the exact source (ie translating the following phrase won't get you what Richard uses in his book), here's a quote from one of the founder's doka that's along the lines of what you're looking for:

「美しきこの天地の御姿は主のつくりし一家なりけり」

This is often translated as, "The form and beauty that is the world of Heaven and Earth has become one family."

Hope that helps in your search,

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2007, 11:41 AM   #3
eric1235711
Location: S縊 Paulo
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 7
Brazil
Offline
Re: original quotes in japanese

do you find that it's what Moon traducted?
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2007, 11:44 AM   #4
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,837
Offline
Re: original quotes in japanese

Hi Eric,

I really can't tell you the source of the quote in Richard's book. However, as I wrote above, "translating the following phrase won't get you what Richard uses in the book."

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2007, 01:15 PM   #5
eric1235711
Location: S縊 Paulo
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 7
Brazil
Offline
Re: original quotes in japanese

I got a problem :P

I need the source of that quote.

Isn`t there any way to contact Moon?

My father retraducted to japanese, but he's insecure of the result...

well, I need the source. The book i read in portuguese says defense instead of defeat.

isn`t there any site with a list of aikido quotes in japanese?

thanks in advance
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2007, 03:08 PM   #6
Dan Rubin
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
Dojo: Boulder Aikikai
Location: Denver, Colorado
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 326
United_States
Offline
Re: original quotes in japanese

Eric

If you Google that quote (and you probably did) you’ll find it all over the place, often with slight variations. These may be variations on how the original could be translated into English. Some of the variations, however, seem to me to be attempts to “improve” earlier English versions.

In the 1978 English translation of the book “Aikido” by Kisshomaru Ueshiba, the quote is:

"Aiki is not a technique to fight with or defeat the enemy. It is the way to reconcile the world and make human beings one family."

In the 1987 book “Abundant Peace” by John Stevens, the quote is:

"Aiki is not an art to fight with or to defeat an enemy. It is a Way in which to harmonize all people into one family."

In the undated “O Sensei Memoirs” by Richard Moon, published sometime after 1994 (www.cityaikido.com/OsenseiMemoirs.pdf), the quote is:

"Aikido is not an art to fight with enemies and defeat them. It is a way to lead all human beings to live in harmony with each other like in a big family."

None of these publications states where this quote originated. Perhaps even the authors don’t know. It may have been something O Sensei wrote, something from one of his lectures, or something he said elsewhere. In other words, I doubt that you’ll be able to find the “original” quote in Japanese, as O Sensei said it.

The versions I’ve found all use the word “defeat.” It’s often difficult to translate from one language to another. Perhaps “Aikido is not an art with which to defend oneself” is a permissible translation to Portuguese.

By the way, why is this so important to you?

Dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2007, 05:13 PM   #7
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,035
United_States
Offline
Re: original quotes in japanese

Here's the original quote in Japanese:

合気とは"Gと戦い、"Gを"jる術ではない。 世界を和合させ、人類を一家たらしめる"ケである。

--- Some of the characters seem to get garbled in the post, you can see the quote online at:

http://sougetukyou.hp.infoseek.co.jp...ounituite.html

Best,

Chris

Last edited by Chris Li : 06-17-2007 at 05:16 PM.

  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2007, 05:59 PM   #8
Dan Rubin
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
Dojo: Boulder Aikikai
Location: Denver, Colorado
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 326
United_States
Offline
Thumbs up Re: original quotes in japanese

Hi Chris

I'm impressed that you could find that.

Does that website state when and where that statement was made? And are those O Sensei's own words? And would you say that the various English translations (there are four in this thread) are all reasonable ones?

Dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2007, 06:35 PM   #9
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,035
United_States
Offline
Re: original quotes in japanese

Quote:
Dan Rubin wrote: View Post
Hi Chris

I'm impressed that you could find that.

Does that website state when and where that statement was made? And are those O Sensei's own words? And would you say that the various English translations (there are four in this thread) are all reasonable ones?

Dan
It's a fairly well known quote, but I don't know where it comes from offhand. There are a large number of very similar phrases in both "Take Musu Aiki" and "Aikido Shinzui". If it's in the 1978 English edition of Kisshomaru's "Aikido" then it's probably in the Japanese version as well.

All of the translations seemed OK to me - they all more or less say the same thing, so far as I can tell. The Japanese uses "yaburu", which is "defeat" or "destroy". For "harmonize" or "reconcile" the Japanese used is "wago", which fits with word (no pun intended).

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2007, 07:15 PM   #10
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,997
Japan
Offline
Re: original quotes in japanese

'Are they O Sensei's own words?' It is hard to be absoutely sure. Even the Takemusu Aiki lectures were edited by Hideo Takahashi and the Aiki Shinzui discourses were certainly edited (under Kisshomaru Ueshiba's overall direction by the late Sadateru Arikawa). The only direct statements in the Japanese original of Kisshomaru Ueshiba's "Aikido" are selected douka and the interview with two newspaper reporters.

I am an academic and have firsthand experience of the sloppy editorial practices common in Japan, where it seems not to be the rule to acknowledge sources with any precision. This is something I am constantly telling my graduate students and the fact that I am constantly doing it suggests that it is not accepted practice.

Of course, the fact that O Sensei's alleged statements were edited does not mean that he did not make them, and make them exactly as they are recorded. But, as I said, it is hard to be sure.

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Hiroshima, Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2007, 08:59 PM   #11
eric1235711
Location: S縊 Paulo
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 7
Brazil
Offline
Re: original quotes in japanese

thanks, every one!!!

It do not need to be very precisely to the very original word of O Sensei. It just need to be near.

The first one, that Aiky sent was significantly different.

Well, I need it because I want to make a gift. just that.

thanks again
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2007, 11:32 PM   #12
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,837
Offline
Re: original quotes in japanese

Quote:
Eric Kinoshita wrote: View Post
The first one, that Aiky sent was significantly different.
Yes, I know it was different. As I wrote, "Although it's not the exact source..."

If I had the time, I would have been happy to translate the English text into Japanese. However, having just come back from being in Japan for a couple of weeks, my time has been limited. Besides, as I'm sure that Chris, Peter, and any others who have done English to Japanese (or vice versa) translation can attest to, any sort of a re-translation of a text that was already translated into another language back to its original language will not necessarily even be close to its original. As such, I would have been wary, to say the least, of translating the English back to the Japanese and calling it anything near "what the founder said," not to mention the inaccuracies that may already have been present in the "transcribed" and "original" Japanese text (that Peter pointed out).

In any case, I'm glad you found something that you found helpful in your search.

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2007, 08:56 PM   #13
eric1235711
Location: S縊 Paulo
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 7
Brazil
Offline
Smile Re: original quotes in japanese

Thanks, Thatエs the quote I was looking for...

Just one more question:

Don't you find that "Destroy" stands better than "Defeat" for "Yaburu"?

thanks again.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Budo Bear Patterns - Sewing pattern for Women's (and Men's) dogi.



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
If you could buy just ONE book about Aikido techniques, what would it be? Karol Kowalczyk Techniques 45 01-31-2014 11:35 PM
Subtle Shades of Japanese & Assumptions Mike Sigman Open Discussions 46 08-30-2006 05:36 PM
Article: Head, Shoulders, Knees, and Toes by Michael J. Hacker AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 13 12-05-2005 03:47 PM
Article: Thoughts on Bugei Studies by Karl Friday AikiWeb System Training 28 04-27-2002 05:21 PM
The use of Japanese in the dojo ronin_10562 General 80 10-30-2001 05:07 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:31 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate