Natural Movements and Following

I practice Ki Aikido and had a great lesson on Wednesay.

Sensei was talking the value of correctly "following" and I must confess that I was having trouble appreciating what he was saying until he demonstrated it. He showed how some arts (e.g. Hapkido and, I think, some Aikido schools) perform Kote gaesh and Shiho nage differently to us, by working against the joint.

I'd seen the Hapkido Kote Gaesh before and thought that it looked really effective, However, when it was tried on us and we followed properly, it just didn't work. We kind of slipped out of it and moved into a nice kokyu nage.

Anyone have any thoughts on 'following'? (I should note that I've only been doing Aikido for around 8 months, so go easy on me if I've made any naive assertions above!)

Hmm, difficult topic. It could be that this "following" by uke prevents tori from controlling uke's center because tori is only used to finding controls in a very basic manner: using fairly corse lever action against a static target which does not attempt to evade the leverage. I surmise that if tori was able to keep himself as the center and generate leverage against himself so to speak, it would not matter so much if uke was moving or static. The next stage would then be to apply such leverage from the start so that uke would be always slightly unbalanced (unknowingly even) and unable to resist effectively at any point. Then "following" would be something that tori generates in uke rather than what uke does actively during the period where tori is still learning how to do all this. Good luck finding out the "how" of this!

The entire idea behind "reversals" in aikido is staying connected and relaxed so that you find any imbalance or opening in your partner (and the nage iwho is most actively working on making a technique happen will probably have the most imbalance/openings).

I'm almost sure that any hapkidoist (hapkidoka?) would've said "You would've have escaped MY kote gaeshi!"

are you refering to taking the hand perpendicular to the wrist and down, as opposed to down and towards the wrist? because if thats it then im not sure why u were able to get out of it the way you did, but we dont do it that way at my school because you could very easily snap someones wrist in practice. so i dont know, ive never trained doing it that way
-morgan

So many folks have a different understanding of what "following" means, video is really in order here. Otherwise, no one is going to realize they are agreeing when they are disagreeing and disagreeing when they are agreeing.

How about some samples from youtube.com????

dmv

Graham Old wrote: He showed how some arts (e.g. Hapkido and, I think, some Aikido schools) perform Kote gaesh and Shiho nage differently to us, by working against the joint. I'd seen the Hapkido Kote Gaesh before and thought that it looked really effective, However, when it was tried on us and we followed properly, it just didn't work. We kind of slipped out of it and moved into a nice kokyu nage.

I hope your instructor's intent wasn't to argue that the other methods of doing it were fundamentally flawed. If it was, I'd call that pretty shady behavior: teach a room full of people a new style, then say, "Look! It doesn't work!"

This is not exactly easy to test empirically, because the injury rate would be ridiculous. But while it's not scientifically verifiable, I have a pretty strong feeling that, for instance, the "nage cuts down nage's own centerline" version of shihonage is at least as "effective" as the "folding uke's arm over their shoulder" version.

Paul, our Sensei has been doing Aikido for 30 years and is a bit beyond such behaviour. However, I'm not at all sure that it is "shoddy" to point out why one method is preferable to another.

As it is, he was simply teaching why we do it the way that we do. In particular, he noted that the other method is harder and more dangerous to practice.

Having said that, it still looks cooler to see those Hapkido guys flip over on the kote gaesh! :-)

Graham Old wrote: Anyone have any thoughts on 'following'?

IMHO, the roles of uke and tori/nage interchange like a mobeus strip. When you enter and blend, you follow them. When you redirect and throw/control, they follow you.

Lynn Seiser wrote: IMHO, the roles of uke and tori/nage interchange like a mobeus strip. When you enter and blend, you follow them. When you redirect and throw/control, they follow you.

Hmm, I hadn't thought of it like that. Incredibly simple; thanks.

Lynn Seiser wrote: IMHO, the roles of uke and tori/nage interchange like a mobeus strip.

Okay Lynn, lets see you describe in words a mobeus strip.
David

Just to follow this up:

We have a white belt in our class who studied another style of Aikido for about a year 2-3 years ago. Tonight we were doing forth form Shihonage and he practically ripped my wrist off!

However, Sensei's assistant paired with him a number of times and his arm seemed to just slide out of this fellas movement. It was obvious to all who were watching that if I could "follow" as well as the Dan grade then I would have been spared a lot of pain.

Alternatively, I could just learn to do some of those really cool flips that the other styles do!

Is "following" something like the Taijiquan "sticking" (nian)?

Excerpt from http://www.taijiquan.co.nz/progress.htm:
Yielding is not to retreat from the force. Nor is to take root to stand against it. To move a moment ahead of a force, is pulling away or disconnecting. To move a moment after, is to resist. It is the fly alighting that sets you in motion, not because the fly lands that you move away. It is the incoming force that creates the movement in you. When you push into a sponge, it isn’t trying to move away from you, it just absorbs your force. When you force is exhausted, the sponge follows you back. This is sticking.

In Taiji Sticking is following someone else’s centre, being connected from your own root through and into another persons, so that two can move as one. It requires listening, sinking, opening, closing and harmonious movements. The process of emptying an incoming force into the ground, and sticking to the base of your partner, requires the same mechanisms as used to sink in the Form.

Graham Old wrote: Just to follow this up: We have a white belt in our class who studied another style of Aikido for about a year 2-3 years ago. Tonight we were doing forth form Shihonage and he practically ripped my wrist off! However, Sensei's assistant paired with him a number of times and his arm seemed to just slide out of this fellas movement. It was obvious to all who were watching that if I could "follow" as well as the Dan grade then I would have been spared a lot of pain. Alternatively, I could just learn to do some of those really cool flips that the other styles do!

You know, I don't think this is very fair behavior. If your new white belt had been training as long as your sensei then I think the results would have been quite different. You can easily frustrate someone's technique when they are less skilled than you.

I do think I see what you are trying to say about "following". When as uke your are relaxed and responsive to what nage is doing it is easier to "feel' their technique allowing you as uke to respond better including responding with reversals.

I think this mysterious, 'correct' following covers far to many sins.

The focus (IMHO) should be on influencing Uke to follow you.

Connection -----> Blending -------> Control ---------> Power

These four elements, in this order allow us to manipulate Uke and indeed follow Uke as Nage because we have the first three. The fourth comes with a committed application.

Just my opinion of course, and I got my first dan with the same association as Graham.

Just to offer a different perspective, what if what you do to YOURSELF causes uke to follow you? In other words, you maintain your own structure, without actively seeking to do anything to uke, and they result is that they follow you naturally?

Best,
Ron

Indeed, point taken, a strong core, tai sabaki etc are so important.

Graham,

'Alternatively, I could just learn to do some of those really cool flips that the other styles do!'

I do not mean to play devils adovcate here, but, are you in some way suggesting that full sustemi (over the top) ukemi are not necessary? I would suggest that you feel the technique of other styles of Aikido before making a judgment that this Ukemi is not necessary. You have knowledge of one flavour of Aikido, as I did, dont have a blinkered approach and see what others have to offer.

Yours in Ki,

Chris

Early on I had asked for some video to establish a common ground on a word that not everyone understands the same (i.e. "following"). Here's my stab at this effort: Is this following?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OqMLzVKAJs

dmv

Is this following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qD_Xqo5iT3Q

David Valadez wrote: Is this following: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qD_Xqo5iT3Q

Wow - I didn't know the Ninja from askaninja.com did aikido too. Cool! Guess that would called Ninjkido.

Well, a lot of special teams, even one's that train in Aikido, hide their faces. But are these two videos both demonstrating "following." The reason I'm asking, where I come from "following" is almost a dirty word, as it denotes choreographed fantasies that border on huge self-attachment and all the delusions that go with that. Assuming this thread is trying to talk about something else, I'm wonder what that something else is.

dmv

Very Rare...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale wrote: Very Rare... Best, Ron

Hi Ron,
Is this an answer to one of the earlier questions?
d

David Valadez wrote: The reason I'm asking, where I come from "following" is almost a dirty word, as it denotes choreographed fantasies that border on huge self-attachment and all the delusions that go with that.

http://www.senshincenter.com/pages/v...iriminage.html

Is this following?

To me it looks like following, and skilled following at that.

Best,

Ed