What happens AFTER the pin?

In dojo practice, when we do a technique that ends up in a pin (nikyo, sankyo, kotegaeshi, etc.), we extend gently until uke feels a nice stretch and perhaps a mild pain. Uke slaps the mat, nage releases, and training continues.

Outside of the formalized practice structure of the dojo, what happens after a pin? If you have pinned an attacker and then release him (or her), he may run away, but then again, he may very well just get up and attack you again.

Should you hold the pin indefinitely, ignoring his probably intense shouts of pain? (Intense because he's not used to the feeling and because in this situation, you may not be inclined to be gentle.) But how long can you hold it? Eventually, you'll have to let go and get something to eat.

Should you extend the pin past the comfort point and intentionally cause damage to the shoulder? How bad would the damage be? And then what happens after that?

I've also heard somewhere that if you hold a pin long enough, the pain will eventually cause the receiver to fall into unconsciousness. Is this true? Is it advisable? How long will the person remain unconscious?

I'd be interested in hearing anybody's thoughts or comments.

There are ways to lock up the attacker to immobilize him, then you can use your cellphone
and call up the authorities - the police.
In Nikyo there is a way lock both arms for you to be in control without using to much force,
so you can keep him controlled as long as you want.
It a little harder to explain that to show - sorry !
In Daito Ryu you will see this more often than in Aikido.

Assuming you mean standing arm pins, you are probably not going to need to worry about injurying him. If you happen to get someone in that position, he is going to injure himself as he tries to escape. Fear, anger, etc is going to make him struggle and try to escape.

If I manged to get someone there, I would try to talk them down. Failing that, I would start stomping on their head.

You rip his arm off and start beating him with it! mwahahah

**totally un-aiki**

Should you extend the pin past the comfort point and intentionally cause damage to the shoulder?

If there's a good reason such as his mates have decided to play to or he's going for a weapon - yes, otherwise

I would try to talk them down. Failing that, I would start stomping on their head

fits my bill, although I'd prefer torso to head or break something with less long-term damage such as a finger.

And then what happens after that?

bit puzzled by this one - I'm running at this point and hopefully they're not able to chase me, is that what you mean?

hold a pin long enough, the pain will eventually cause the receiver to fall into unconsciousness.

Never heard this one before, people can pass out because of pain, but once you're causing that much damage I'd hesitate to call it just a pin.

If I thought I could talk my way out of it I could. Other than that you've got three or four options:
1.Run and pray he or his mates can't run faster than you.
2.Roll forward which'll break/dislocate the arm.
3.Go for a choke.
4.Absolute last resort, call the police and pray.

4.Absolute last resort, call the police and pray.

If you make that your first resort, you can do all the others while you're waiting for the calvary to arrive...

B,
R

Ron Tisdale wrote: If you make that your first resort, you can do all the others while you're waiting for the calvary to arrive... B, R

Is true, I mean you have to pass the time somehow, may as well get some training in while you're there cuz you may need it when the cavalry shows up.

The question is how long can you hold him there?

How long do you have to hold him there?

What happens if no one comes?

What happens if he gets out?

What happens if you do injure his arm, but he still wants to fight you?

What other options do you have?

No right answers, simply questions that I think you need to really deeply explore if you are really concerned about this scenario.

Most likely taking an unprepared person to the ground hard will render them momentarily dazed and hurt (but hurt in a gentle aiki kind of way *wink*), giving you enough time to get away.

But sometimes it doesn't. What then?

Alex Lawrence wrote: Is true, I mean you have to pass the time somehow, may as well get some training in while you're there cuz you may need it when the cavalry shows up.

Personally, I'd prefer to pass the time with a lively round of "knock-knock" jokes* ("Come on, Dude: play along! What ELSE have you got to do while waiting for the police!")

* (or, failing that: a rousing chorus of "Don't Worry; Be Happy**")

** ("If you try to break my FACE! Won't like de way I PIN you, in place! So don' worry...be happy...." )

Neil Mick wrote: Personally, I'd prefer to pass the time with a lively round of "knock-knock" jokes* ("Come on, Dude: play along! What ELSE have you got to do while waiting for the police!") * (or, failing that: a rousing chorus of "Don't Worry; Be Happy**") ** ("If you try to break my FACE! Won't like de way I PIN you, in place! So don' worry...be happy...." )

Don't let him up until he sings along with you!

Or perhaps, "Hey buddy, howya doin'. I'm not really familiar with these rules. If you try to mug me and fail, do I get your money?"

Ryan Porter wrote: Should you hold the pin indefinitely, ignoring his probably intense shouts of pain?

I really hope it is some kind of surrealistic joke, otherwise you are in a serious trouble.

1.Stop dreaming about fighting, aikido has nothing to do with fight.

2.You will never catch somebody in aikido pin in street situation -- well, may some school child or real looser, otherwise forget it.Street situation is whole other Univers then aikido dojo.
3.Aikido pins are not designed to hold somebody for more then 1-2 seconds. These pins are not 'user friendly' pins, not for attacker and not for defender.
4.The only realistic pin is a chock -- if your aikido instructor taught you it in proper way -- and this is VERY rare situation. Better to check it with your friendly judo or bjj folks.

hope it helps.

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: I 2.You will never catch somebody in aikido pin in street situation -- well, may some school child or real looser, otherwise forget it..

absolutely incorrect. One of my guys who's a LEO uses nikkyo type pins on hardened bad guys all the time.

James Davis, Jr. wrote: Don't let him up until he sings along with you! Or perhaps, "Hey buddy, howya doin'. I'm not really familiar with these rules. If you try to mug me and fail, do I get your money?"

That's probably the best one-liner to a mugger that I've ever heard!

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: I really hope it is some kind of surrealistic joke, otherwise you are in a serious trouble. 1.Stop dreaming about fighting, aikido has nothing to do with fight. 2.You will never catch somebody in aikido pin in street situation -- well, may some school child or real looser, otherwise forget it.Street situation is whole other Univers then aikido dojo.

Sorry to inform you, Szczepan, put Terry Dobson would disagree, I imagine.

At the one and only seminar of his I had the pleasure to attend, he related a story of a woman who used an ikkyo pin to foil a purse-snatcher (pinned his arm to her car)...after she had only been training six months!

Now, I'll grant you that the pin probably didn't look anything like a nice, neat dojo-pin. But I question that there are no street-applications to Aikido-pins.

They just need realtime modifications to fit the situation, IMO.

3.Aikido pins are not designed to hold somebody for more then 1-2 seconds. These pins are not 'user friendly' pins, not for attacker and not for defender.

I haven't a clue where you get this idea. Come to my dojo and we'll test it out...I'll pin you and I'll give you 10 seconds to get up.

Sure, some ppl are able to use force/wriggle out of my pins. But, that was because I didn't want to cause bodily harm to uke, in a lot of cases. Uke tries to roll over out of an ikkyo pin: and I could easily put the whole weight of my knee on his elbow, and pull his hair with my close hand. Not pretty, but effective.

4.The only realistic pin is a chock

A "chock?" What is this? Oh...you mean a choke! Sorry...understanding dawns.

Neil Mick wrote: Personally, I'd prefer to pass the time with a lively round of "knock-knock" jokes* ("Come on, Dude: play along! What ELSE have you got to do while waiting for the police!") * (or, failing that: a rousing chorus of "Don't Worry; Be Happy**") ** ("If you try to break my FACE! Won't like de way I PIN you, in place! So don' worry...be happy...." )

How about a philosophical discussion into the freudian underpinnings of the themes found in several of the more interesting episodes of Scooby Doo?

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: I really hope it is some kind of surrealistic joke, otherwise you are in a serious trouble. 1.Stop dreaming about fighting, aikido has nothing to do with fight. 2.You will never catch somebody in aikido pin in street situation -- well, may some school child or real looser, otherwise forget it.Street situation is whole other Univers then aikido dojo. 3.Aikido pins are not designed to hold somebody for more then 1-2 seconds. These pins are not 'user friendly' pins, not for attacker and not for defender. 4.The only realistic pin is a chock -- if your aikido instructor taught you it in proper way -- and this is VERY rare situation. Better to check it with your friendly judo or bjj folks. hope it helps.

I've pinned a rather large Judo guy with Aikido pins, he did his best but eventually he just tapped out.

I once pinned a bigger black belt jujitsuka with one finger...... I think it was definitely more than 1-2 sec, perhaps more like 30 secs, when he gave up fighting and said "OK... that was effective..."... Pity he didn't ask "how did you do THAT?"...

Ignatius Teo wrote: I once pinned a bigger black belt jujitsuka with one finger...... I think it was definitely more than 1-2 sec, perhaps more like 30 secs, when he gave up fighting and said "OK... that was effective..."... Pity he didn't ask "how did you do THAT?"...

lol impressive

I'm becoming more adept at escaping these kind of pins. The reason is simply that I fake it so they think they have it. Only very good practitioners realize they are not connected. Combine this with my training on how to move the body on the ground and I bet I can escape most of the time, IF you can get me into a pin like that (and I still say that is a big IF). Personally, I think they show expert control, just like doing judo kata. It shows perfect form and control, but in reality, you do nothing like that.

Knee-drop 'em and make 'em do the funky chicken...

Seriously, I've been in this situation three times in my life (no more than that, thankfully). Each time, I faced the guy down on the ground, sat on his back, and hollered at him not to move until the cops showed up. One guy listened, the second did not. Him, I reached around and claw-grabbed firmly by the larynx, triggering an immediate and lasting change in attitude. The third struggled, but I had my Glock with me, and he calmed down when he felt the business end against the nape of his neck. I have been lucky, and I hope that I am not tested again in this manner.

Ryan Porter wrote: What happens after the pin?

A) In dojo practice, let uke go, then reverse role.

B) In Ancient Days Edo (old name for Tokyo), unsheathe wakizashi, slice opponent's throat. You only need one or two seconds to do that... therefore strong immobilization as seen in judo katamae-waza not necessary.

C) In modern days, break limbs to render aggressor unable to further threaten you, assuming your live is in mortal danger.

D) If you are dealing with a non lethal opponent and you need to control and seize opponent (e.g., not to get into nasty law suits), then the ability to transition and be mobile on the ground is necessary. Judo's osaekomi skills are good skills to have.

Boon.

I have no issues with aikido pins they are principally sound. What I would be cautious about is fighting strictly from your aikido training paradigm.

Don I believe is saying this as well. They don't always work, and when your game plan fails, then you need to be prepared to move on to other things. It is not up to me to define these other things.

We seem to always end our thinking with the solution, well if it doesn't work...well just break his limb. The fight may not be over then.

How crass! Well just break his limb if your aikido fails! Ellis Amdur was just talking about this.

In my practice with non-compliant people, I have discovered that you have many more options if you train them, they don't involve pins that require the conditions to be 100% correct, nor do you escalate from gentle aikido pin to break his arm!

A good blood choke might not seem very civilized, but it renders even the most hopped up PCP addict limp, and buys you a few seconds to take other actions, and it does not cause him permanent damage. Just one option that might be available if you are truly concerned with reality outside of your aikido practice.

The third struggled, but I had my Glock with me, and he calmed down when he felt the business end against the nape of his neck.

Clarke what were you planning to do with that Glock? Did he have a knife or gun still?

If you shot him- how could you justify your actions.? You already restrained him why did you need a higher level of force. You had control over the situation. When would you drawn the line and kill him. When he rolled over? When he refused to stop resisting the 4th time.

I find it difficult to understand why you would use the highest force option when you contained the situation with lower option. I think a court would as well.