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Old 10-22-2006, 05:33 PM   #1
MM
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Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Work sent me to Boston for a few days. Before I left for Boston, I contacted Dan Harden and asked if he'd meet me. I said I'd like to start learning the internal stuff. Once in Boston, I met Dan at my hotel after work one day and we walked over to the Commons.

I ended up learning a lot of things. One is that Dan is a great guy. Working out with him for the short time I had was a pleasure. I went back and forth from, "Okay how did you do that" to laughing. Most of the time I forgot I was even standing in the Boston Commons.

Two is that I just couldn't push him over. And let me tell -- that was a very disconcerting feeling. I tried pushing with both hands on his chest, tried pulling him sideways using one of his arms, and then placing a hand on the side of his head and pushing. He just stood there relaxed. I don't know how to explain some of what I felt there. Part of it was just like pushing and nothing was budging. Almost like putting your hand on a wall, leaning into it, pushing, and it's just there not moving, but not nearly as hard or unyielding as a wall's surface. And parts of it I could feel that I'd lost my own balance as I started to push. In those instances, I was pushing and Dan was moving his center in such a way that he knew where I was losing my balance or what foot held most of my weight.

It was an eye opening display of some of what he can do. I say some because I also got to feel a small portion of the power he can generate. Another example of this relaxed power was that he held out both hands and asked me to throw him in a judo type throw. I grabbed both arms and that was as far as I got. There were no openings. I never got to the tsukuri, or fit, because I couldn't even get kuzushi. In fact, there was a kuzushi but it was on me. If you've ever seen some of these sayings, "keep weight underside", "extend ki", "keep one point", well, I got to experience them first hand. Dan also showed me the "push out exercise" where I had hold of him but couldn't step forward. Although I didn't feel like I was overly weighted down, I still couldn't take a step. My feet just felt rooted to the ground.

The no-inch punch was amazing. And yes, there was no distance but the force was definitely there. I wouldn't say it felt exactly like a punch, which is more of a percussive feel. No, this was more like a ball of energy/power hitting me and shockwaves vibrating out from where it entered my body. Next thing I know, I'm picking myself up off the ground a few feet away.

All the while, Dan is explaining how all of it is done. He was open and willing to share information on what he was doing and how it was done. He showed me some exercises to do and I tried some of them. Try is a good word. It'll take some time doing them, especially the hanmi. LOL. But in the short time I was there, I will say that they definitely helped.

The stuff Dan is doing is good stuff. I wish I'd been able to visit his dojo and meet everyone else, but I'm hoping that my next visit, I'll be able to do that.

Mark
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Old 10-22-2006, 07:58 PM   #2
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
No, this was more like a ball of energy/power hitting me and shockwaves vibrating out from where it entered my body. Next thing I know, I'm picking myself up off the ground a few feet away.
Wow,looks like we have new O sensei of Nord America! Amazing!
Now I can sleep peacefully.

Last edited by NagaBaba : 10-22-2006 at 08:02 PM.

Nagababa

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Old 10-22-2006, 09:09 PM   #3
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Hello Mark, lucky you! Hope you keep at the exercises Dan has been kind enough to show you. It's a relative thing after all - if you know nothing, the other guy seems amazing. When you start to find out how this works, then it becomes a matter of training disparity.
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Old 10-23-2006, 03:33 AM   #4
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
Wow,looks like we have new O sensei of Nord America! Amazing!
Now I can sleep peacefully.
The subtlety in your sarcasm is exquisite as always

Last edited by Upyu : 10-23-2006 at 03:35 AM.
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Old 10-23-2006, 03:38 AM   #5
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Szczepan,
Right, because no one could ever even approach Ueshiba or any of his first generation acolytes. They walked like gods among men, some said, and rightfully so. Training to meet that goal, would be disrespectful because it shows a student who does not know his own place--to be a student. Teachers teach, and students learn. One should not confuse oneself as to one's true station in life. What kind of arrogant person wants to be as good or better than his teacher?

Americans are so damn arrogant, unlike Japanese people, who , as we all know , always strive to be a little less able than their teacher, in order to show proper respect.

Last edited by Tim Fong : 10-23-2006 at 03:40 AM.
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Old 10-23-2006, 02:47 PM   #6
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Hello Mark,

Thanks for the review! The next time you're in the DC area, please let me know --- maybe you can stop by the dojo and show me some of what you're working on --- unless Dan swore you to secrecy.

Dan, my invitation to you still stands (see http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10287). At this point, it looks like we would have to do it in 2007. By the way, I asked about your rank and experience in Daito-ryu (in http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35461 --- now locked, alas) because in many of your posts on AikiWeb, e-budo, Aikido Journal, and other internet fora, you hint that you know something more, and that you have studied extensively with senior Daito-ryu teachers. You then imply strongly that this should give your opinion some additional authority.

A typical example is in the Iaido-L archives (March 1999, #229, http://listserv.uoguelph.ca/cgi-bin...-l&T=0&P=22915), in which you said, "As a student Of Kiyama Hayawo (North American Director Of Daito Ryu Kodo Kai) and Roy Goldberg (Shingen) East Coast director, I wish to shed some light on this person and his affiliation with the Kodo Kai. [...] As an aside, perhaps it would aid those in discussing the Kodo Kai, to realize that under Kiyama it may take fifteen years of supervised regular training to reach Mokuroku. For the fortunate few who have felt his technique, it can be quickly discerned that he is a man of outstanding character and humility, and excruciatingly effective."

For what it's worth, I'm satisfied with your answer to Roy Goldberg-sensei's question. As Fred Little noted, your definitive statement that your perspective is based on mixed martial arts is a welcome one. I'm far more interested in studying aikido, its antecedents, and related arts, than the various combat sports.

Also, Dan, as for your claim that you talked to my friends or seniors in aikido, well, please name them. Not one of our mutual acquaintances has contacted me about these exchanges. And as far as I know, they are not a tactful group.

Sincerely,

Jim Sorrentino
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Old 10-23-2006, 04:32 PM   #7
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

You know Justin... er, I mean, Jim
In the end you are going to get the opposite of what you hoped to accomplish. Either way this goes-few will be pleased.

For starters
That letter you linked too? Was written with the expressed permission of The East Coast director and was read to him prior. Surprise!......
As well, I was publicly thanked... both for -it- and a letter that appeared in Aikido Journal- with copies of that journal passed around at a private training session with Kiyama Shihan and others in the room.

Even that is more than you should be entitled to know or have been told.
1. You need an education in Koryu politics, relationships and being set-up.
2. As well as understanding, obedience, and loyalty.
You are talking about family business, and days gone by.

With that I'll remain silent.....Although there is so much more I can say.
All you are doing is to endear me to those who understand Koryu, and speaking volumes to those who knew me then, and know me now. By taking the hit.....I win.
You on the other hand, are hurting your reputation and comng across like a dullard.

I'm not interested in telling you where I was or those I was with who know you. Nor do I care if you dismiss it.
You can't do the jo work, push out exercises, or much of anything else in-depth that has been discussed on these forums.
So, just continue one with what you are doing.....Couldn't happen to a nicer fellow.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-23-2006 at 04:43 PM.
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Old 10-23-2006, 04:51 PM   #8
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Gernot Hassenpflug wrote:


................ It's a relative thing after all - if you know nothing, the other guy seems amazing. When you start to find out how this works, then it becomes a matter of training disparity.

Gernot

I could not agree more and conveyed much the same thing to Mark.These are learned skills. Its a question of daily training. I hate hearing people act supprior about it. Anyone can learn them if they apply themselves. Although I do like the term "training disparity."
I'm going to steal that. I ask my guys how many times they did this or that exercise we are working on this week. Then I say how do you expect to progress?


Tim
But aren't many visionless and stuck? They cannot see beyond technique to principle. Further still, so many are still concentrating on responding to Uke and the prverbial blending, which leads them even farther away from ever getting this stuff internally.
For many Its full speed..............in the wrong direction.

Anyway. I'm outa here just thought I'd respond to Jim's hoo ha.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 10-23-2006, 06:52 PM   #9
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Dan,

My post was pure sarcasm =)

I totally agree with you, people get caught up in the whole blending thing and miss the bigger picture.
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Old 10-23-2006, 06:59 PM   #10
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Dan, you're welcome! Every time I post here I am thinking of my betters who read this and shake their heads (or shake with laughter).
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Old 10-23-2006, 08:06 PM   #11
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
The subtlety in your sarcasm is exquisite as always
I tried to resist temptation, but when I read about ball of energy and shockwaves vibrating I actually felt some vibrating shock, my fingers suddelny wrote something on keyboard and computer sent it out as by Mortal Kombat magic. I don't really understand what happened, but sarcasm wasn't intended at all.......

Nagababa

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Old 10-23-2006, 08:45 PM   #12
Upyu
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
I tried to resist temptation, but when I read about ball of energy and shockwaves vibrating I actually felt some vibrating shock, my fingers suddelny wrote something on keyboard and computer sent it out as by Mortal Kombat magic. I don't really understand what happened, but sarcasm wasn't intended at all.......
Dunno, it's not that hard to believe. He's simply describing how it felt. Not a literal "BALL OF En3RgIE OMFDFDFG"
There's other guys that can do similarly disconcerting strikes, I don't think Dan is the only one out there.
Like I said, when you're in the Tokyo area I'd be happy to show you some of this stuff one on one
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Old 10-24-2006, 05:42 AM   #13
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
I tried to resist temptation, but when I read about ball of energy and shockwaves vibrating I actually felt some vibrating shock, my fingers suddelny wrote something on keyboard and computer sent it out as by Mortal Kombat magic. I don't really understand what happened, but sarcasm wasn't intended at all.......
Sorry you didn't like my description. I'm not the greatest at wordplay. I tell you what, take a visit to Dan or Rob and get first hand experience and then you can describe what it felt like. See if you can come up with a better description. As Rob said, it wasn't literal.

Course, if sarcasm wasn't intended in your first post, then that's kind of a scary thought for you, isn't it? Let's take a look at that post:

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
Wow,looks like we have new O sensei of Nord America!
If there was no sarcasm intended, then you can only mean one of two things. Either your view of O sensei is sooooo low that he wasn't this great martial artist -- or -- Dan is a supremely great martial artist on the level of O sensei. Either way, your training is sort of invalid now, isn't it? I mean, here you are training in a system where you don't believe the founder had any great skill buy you're trudging along in mediocrity -- or -- you're training in a system where there isn't a great martial artist to learn from. Hmmm ... what does one do? Oh, in case you haven't noticed, yes, sarcasm is intended.

Seriously, though, if you get a chance to train with one of them, my advice would be to take the opportunity. Just my opinion, though.

Mark
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Old 10-24-2006, 06:04 PM   #14
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Jim may want to take note: just as there are individuals who may never have finished high school, but who take the world by storm with their natural intelligence, talent, vision and determination, there are also those who do not "earn rank" in martial arts by convential means, yet they excel and perhaps even exceed the abilities and skills of those who would rank them. They do not rely on just one source from which to derive their truths.

It is arrogance to adhere to the narrow view that rank-granting organizations, whether universities or martial disciplines, are the sole means by which a person may master their fields or arts.

In fact, in my observation, the best and most visionary advances made in any discipline, from science to martial arts, have seldom been made to the the adherants of in-the-box organizational associations. Rather, they come from those who came up in the conventional way, then followed their own vision. Not because they were arrogant, but because they had such a hunger to know, that they had to follow their own path. They build something better on the foundation they were given. They are seldom welcomed by those who remain in the box, but are respected and lauded by those who themselves have the vision to see past the limits of the systems from which they came.

The arrogance I see -- among aikidoka, purportedly the Harmonious ones! -- is appalling. Shame on your Sczcepan, after all these years. Here you have a first-hand report from someone who trained with and found Dan to be open, willing and in no way secretive about exemplary techniques that Mark was then invited to learn for himself, and you still can't accept Dan or his abilities.

The box is still full of people who are happy to wedge themselves in and contemplate only its corners.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 10-24-2006 at 06:07 PM.
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Old 10-24-2006, 07:37 PM   #15
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

By the way, koryu themselves do not have formal rank, and some koryu-based arts retained that tradition and did not have or grant formal rank until fairly recently (some systems didn't start ranking until less than 10 years ago). A lot about rank is totally political and has little regard to actual ability or skill -- which is true in pretty much every discipline that has some kind of ranking system. You can get Grand Muckalucks who can do squat, and rankless individuals who have trained one-on-one with high-level practitioners and have superb skills.

In my experience over the past nearly-30 years is that the more importance an individual puts on formal rank, the less secure he is and -- in truth -- the less he knows. I'd put a lot more weight on what a person can do, and what he knows. Knowledge and skill do not materialize in a vacuum. They come from having had excellent teachers, and from being an excellent student -- to the point that they go beyond what they were formally taught and take their skills to new levels through intelligent hard training and study.

Rank means way too much to too many, and few have real understanding of what it all means.
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Old 10-24-2006, 08:21 PM   #16
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Cady,

I am aware that koryu budo do not issue rank in the manner that gendai budo usually do. I am also aware that rank (in any art) often has little to do with knowledge and skill. As I have said many times since I first invited Dan to teach at my dojo (sight unseen!), I asked Dan to state his rank and experience only because he has, on many occasions, implied strongly that he has knowledge and skill outside the realm of experience of many, if not most, aikidoka. Further, he has often implied that much of this knowledge and skill comes from his study of koryu --- specifically Daito-ryu Aiki Jujutsu (Kodokai) and Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu swordsmanship. So it seems to me fair to ask him: what did you study, for how long, and with whom? And since he has written in a public forum, it seems appropriate and fair to ask him these questions in that forum, rather than in private messages.

I have continued to pursue this matter because Dan writes to this forum, as well as e-budo and others, a lot. Since he has much to tell us, I have offered him the opportunity to show us. Here in the DC area, I could assemble a group of aikidoka, practitioners of Chinese martial arts, and others, many of whom would have at least 20 years of training. Many are in law enforcement, or are active-duty military. If Dan has something to show, if he has learned and/or developed methods of training that "cut to the chase" in the aiki world, then he should come on down --- we are waiting to see it, and learn it if we can.

I bear Dan no ill will, despite the fact that he seems quite upset with me, to the point of engaging in grade-school tactics such as saying that my friends and associates (all anonymous!) agree with him. If Dan does not want to show and teach what he knows, that is his choice. But if he values what he does, and values it enough to want to share it with experienced, enthusiastic, and dedicated learners, it is also his loss.

I agree that aikidoka are often an arrogant and smug lot. That is why I am willing to provide my dojo as a venue in which to test out our assumptions. If Dan were to come down, I hope that Szczepan (and other skeptics) would attend as well.

Alas, the latest thread concerning this matter, in the Aikijujutsu section of e-budo, has been merged and closed. I hope that this thread will not suffer the same fate.

Sincerely,

Jim Sorrentino
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Old 10-24-2006, 09:34 PM   #17
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Just so you know, I have trained with Dan for some years. He'll likely be pissed that I'm even posting here and bringing more attention to this, but actually, he does have skills that have never been documented or observed in aikidoka. It's just not there. Dunno why, but that's just how it is. The holders of skills don't always pass them along, for whatever reason.

Some people just don't "do" seminars or drop in to teach at schools of other arts. They have nothing to prove, and what they do isn't for the entertainment or pleasure of those whose first admissions were of disdain. That Dan would openly offer to meet and train with anyone who would like to come out to his area makes it pretty clear that he isn't hiding anything or putting himself above anyone. He has trained with anyone who was open-minded and genuinely wanted to learn, and in fact sees that as opportunity for his own training, learning and betterment.

Mark Murray was particularly gracious to share his experiences and perspectives, which are spot-on for someone unfamiliar with that skill set. Skepticism accompanied not by rigidity, but by curiousity and humility, is what opens the door to genuine learning and opportunity.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 10-24-2006 at 09:40 PM.
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Old 10-25-2006, 08:17 AM   #18
DH
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Cady
That was a bit over the top. Several other guys wanted to write in as well and I said no. It was supposed to be a direct report from a stranger initially involved with the debate, not those who already know me.

Folks
What is the heart of the matter?
The history of these discussions, and the start of contention were the interjections intially put forward by Rob John, Sigman and I in many discussions of center, jo, the one point, Aiki, etc.
Many sceptics asked whether we were doing the same things or similar or not and if these things can or are done with non-students and if it works (this of course alluding to them being tricks instead of the real skills they are) on non-cooperating trained guys.

What we now are seeing is anything....anything... to hang on to instead of those sceptics and doubters admitting they were wrong. That there is a a skill as reported, in front of them and that is beyond most everyone in these discussions- even in these arts.Seniors, juniors or not.... they simply don't know them.
So.....
Who has held up their part of the bargain?
Who is lacking?

1. Rob Johns teacher did a seminar
Folks reported back that everything was true

2. Sigman met Ledyard
Ledyard reported back that everything was true

3. I was the hold out. But I agreed to meet Ron Tilsdale and Mark Murray from this list and they would report back here. Sadly Ron could not make it.
Mark did and reported back.....
That everything was true......

The real issue-obfuscated by off-topic nonsense- is since it -IS- true.
a. Why can't you do it?
b. Why don't you know this stuff?
c. Why is your art sorely lacking of these skills?
d. Why can't you even hold up your end an acknowledge the efforts and reports of those who pursued the answers up close and live?

Unless I see something on topic, like the sceptics and doubters asking or even acknowledging the existence of these skills, then I'm done.

There are others I have trained with in Aikido since this debate many months ago who have read this fall-de-rall, and I have more to go. Some of them-unlike the doubters and sceptics here- are now actively learning skills sets, instead of being gad flies on the internet, doubting things they do not understand.
The skeptics will stagnate or continue to slog through the box trying to find the pieces here and there, if they ever do.

What we have been discussing in these many topics, is the true bujutsu, the true source of Aiki, and the paths of power. It is the essence of Aikijujutsu, AIkido, Judo, and the Chinese martial arts.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-25-2006 at 08:27 AM.
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Old 10-25-2006, 10:44 AM   #19
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

I didn't know. I'm sorry.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 10-25-2006 at 10:49 AM.
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Old 10-25-2006, 12:58 PM   #20
David Orange
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A Challenge Issued

Quote:
Jim Sorrentino wrote:
Since he has much to tell us, I have offered him the opportunity to show us.
I have to weigh in here in agreement with some others who have provided historical, traditional precedent that if you want to see what Dan does, you need to go to his place and see. I don't know of anyone who would agree to go to you and show you their material and IF you like it, you will cover their expenses and maybe pay them something for their trouble.

Dan has offered to show you and some of your friends at his location for no charge. As someone else suggested, you can end all the back-and-forth and snide comments by taking the money you proposed giving Dan and using it to make the trip to him, as is the traditional way of handling these things. Dan has even offered to let you film the interactions.

Since you have made the challenge, it really is your responsibility to go to him. If you don't want to accept that, then you should let it go. Otherwise, it just looks worse and worse.

Best wishes.

David

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Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 10-25-2006, 01:16 PM   #21
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Frankly, I respect both of the main players in this debate, though to date I have only trained with one. I'd like to consider both friendly aquaintences, and hope one day to be able to say more.

This is just my opinion, and you may both feel free to ignore me and it...

But this should be let go. Either one can travel...it makes no difference. Get together, sort it out, let it go. The training that each of you does is way more important than the bickering.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 10-26-2006, 07:55 AM   #22
shodan 83
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

I respectively disagree with the notion that this needs to be dropped, it is true that nothing will come of it; Dan will not accept the gracious offer to show the "jo trick" at Jimmy's dojo. Dan will continue to point out that all other MA do not possess what he has and are lacking, he'll continue to make the claims he has made in the past and cast disparaging remarks concerning others training and his ability to gather admirers from casual interaction at an assortment of venues. It has a certain entertainment value.
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Old 10-26-2006, 08:10 AM   #23
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Hi Eric,

The shame of it is that the martial skills and how to train them (which in reality, you would think would be the focus) get lost in the bruhaha. That is everyone's loss. There are a lot of personalities in the MA world that I really don't care for...but if they have good skills and know how to pass them on to me, I'll deal with the personality to get the goods. Not in a slimy, kiss up way...just good honest training.

This other stuff is for the birds.

Best,
Ron (entertainment? that's what the Ron Duncan vids are for)

Ron Tisdale
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Old 10-26-2006, 08:17 AM   #24
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Interesting Eric
I continually point out that this knowledge -is- out there in various places and is just not -commonly-known by men (of all styles). And of those that have met those of us who can do these things-What do....they...say? They can't do these things either. How'd that happen Eric? Is it a conspiricy?

If you can't...you can't. The only thing remaining is whether or not you care-most don't.
And whether or not you doubt it...most do.
And then whether or not you pursue training in it to improve your own arts. Most won't.

Those that do... are and will remain... superior artists.
Still doesn't mean they're better fighters. Thats a whole different topic-one that I also enjoy. Just that they will be far more efficient players in any venue they choose to use these skills in. Further if you read various things I have written I said I hate seeing it mentioned without adding that anyone can train this way. Its out there for anyone who will pursue it. I've also said I hate to see the last vestige of what is truly great in these arts bandied about and used to beat people over the head. The only truck I have is with those who say these skills don't exist? Why? Cause it isn't true.
I'd like to see consistency in a debate.
First it was stated clearly...here....that these skills weren't true.
Then various people got to feel it and reported back that it was.
Now its back to personality bashing. You might want to also note Marks comments about laughing and having a great time. I think the sour grapes are entirely with your side. I'm enjoying life and making friends. I hope you are too.

There's nothing wrong with you just writing this off. Maybe there is nothing here for you.

Dan
.

Last edited by DH : 10-26-2006 at 08:31 AM.
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Old 10-26-2006, 09:23 AM   #25
shodan 83
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Interesting Eric
I continually point out that this knowledge -is- out there in various places and is just not -commonly-known by men (of all styles). And of those that have met those of us who can do these things-What do....they...say? They can't do these things either. How'd that happen Eric? Is it a conspiricy?

If you can't...you can't. The only thing remaining is whether or not you care-most don't.
And whether or not you doubt it...most do.
And then whether or not you pursue training in it to improve your own arts. Most won't.

Those that do... are and will remain... superior artists.
Still doesn't mean they're better fighters. Thats a whole different topic-one that I also enjoy. Just that they will be far more efficient players in any venue they choose to use these skills in. Further if you read various things I have written I said I hate seeing it mentioned without adding that anyone can train this way. Its out there for anyone who will pursue it. I've also said I hate to see the last vestige of what is truly great in these arts bandied about and used to beat people over the head. The only truck I have is with those who say these skills don't exist? Why? Cause it isn't true.
I'd like to see consistency in a debate.
First it was stated clearly...here....that these skills weren't true.
Then various people got to feel it and reported back that it was.
Now its back to personality bashing. You might want to also note Marks comments about laughing and having a great time. I think the sour grapes are entirely with your side. I'm enjoying life and making friends. I hope you are too.

There's nothing wrong with you just writing this off. Maybe there is nothing here for you.

Dan
.

Dan I'm well aware of these things and I'm searching them out and I'll find them, you don't know me so please don't presume to lump me into the category of those who presume to hold themselves or their art in an air of ignorance or superiority. I'm not taking anyone's side just putting in a contrarian point of view. I'm sure you and Mark had a great time, he had nothing but positive things to say. Hopefully our paths will cross one day and you and I can share some training.
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