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Old 10-21-2006, 03:46 PM   #1
Joyce Lunas
Dojo: Kobukan Dojo
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Yankyo reeeeeeally hurts    :-\(

Hi everybody. As we were training today at the dojo, Sensei showed us again the basic blocks, one of them being yankyo. Then he decided to "use" me in order to let me see the move step-by-step, up close. And just because I didn't fall down immediately it really hurt! And here i was thinking blocks like ushiro katadori, kote gaeshi etc. only hurt! Silly girl... 

Any ideas for ...less pain, perhaps?

Thank you
C u around
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Old 10-21-2006, 05:34 PM   #2
Mary Turner
Dojo: Joshinkan
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
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Re: Yankyo reeeeeeally hurts    :-\(

Hi Joyce,

It was the last technique I learned before my 4th kyu test, I only practiced a couple times because none of the higher belts wanted to practice it! It seems like it stings a lot no matter what but if you can shoot your legs out from under you and get flat on the mat really fast, it's best.

Good luck,
Mary
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Old 10-21-2006, 05:49 PM   #3
jason jordan
 
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Re: Yankyo reeeeeeally hurts    :-\(

Quote:
Joyce Lunas wrote:
Any ideas for ...less pain, perhaps?

Thank you
C u around
Yess!!!!!!!
Keep practicing for many many many years! Until you actually start to miss the pain!!!

Train hard!!!
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Old 10-21-2006, 08:26 PM   #4
Eddie deGuzman
Dojo: Kuroishi/Kitakyushu
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Re: Yankyo reeeeeeally hurts    :-\(

Hi Joyce,

Yonkyo is supposed to hurt. That's what causes the attacker to submit. At what level of pain the attacker will give up varies somewhat so it's important to be aware of when to stop. No need to piss off your partner.
On the other hand, as attacker, it is also important not to "fall" before the pain comes, otherwise it never becomes a learning experience.

In this particular instance, "No pain, no gain" seems appropriate. Try not to shy away from the pain because yonkyo hurts. Instead, look forward to the day people collapse at your all powerful Vulcan-like touch!

Good training,
Eddie
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Old 10-21-2006, 09:20 PM   #5
raul rodrigo
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Re: Yankyo reeeeeeally hurts    :-\(

Actually (and its been pointed out on these forums a couple of times before), yonkyo doesn't necessarily hurt. There are people whose wrists are so constructed that they dont really feel a lot of pain even when nage really cranks it up. So the important thing is to get the lock structurally correct so even a yonkyo-resistant uke can't get out. Dont expect that the pain alone will be enough for success.
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Old 10-21-2006, 09:59 PM   #6
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
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Re: Yankyo reeeeeeally hurts    :-\(

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote:
Actually (and its been pointed out on these forums a couple of times before), yonkyo doesn't necessarily hurt.
Yeah, some folks just smile. If you don't have the body mechanics right, UKE is not going down.

Watch some Osensei films and look at the angle of his body when he applies 4 KYO. That's a hint to execution.

Also, it's well born in mind that the 4th technique comes after the 3rd, not only in numbering, but in resistance scenarios--if 1 fails, go to 2, to 3, to 4.

These helped me with execution, anyway (quite off the original topic, of course. Sorry.)

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
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Old 10-22-2006, 07:51 AM   #7
Eddie deGuzman
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Re: Yankyo reeeeeeally hurts    :-\(

Quote:
There are people whose wrists are so constructed that they dont really feel a lot of pain even when nage really cranks it up.
Bloody Mutants!

Eddie
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Old 10-22-2006, 10:20 AM   #8
Karen Wolek
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Re: Yankyo reeeeeeally hurts :-\(

Quote:
Eddie deGuzman wrote:
Bloody Mutants!

Eddie
I'm one of the mutants.

Instead, my sensei digs his knuckle into my wrist bone instead. Sometimes that works. But really, he doesn't need to cause the pain...the way he moves is enough to make me fall.

The pain is just a bonus.

Karen
"Try not. Do...or do not. There is no try." - Master Yoda
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Old 10-22-2006, 01:58 PM   #9
markwalsh
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Re: Yankyo reeeeeeally hurts    :-\(

Yeah - Yonkyo is mechanics not pain, stupid to rely on pain, is just extra for fun. Will become sweet, don't worry. If really too much ask partner to do less! People don't have any special rights over your body just because its an aikido class.

But pain isn't the problem - life has all kind of pain in it and this just gets worse as you get older (chances of disease, injury and grief all increase) so relax and get used to it now. Learn to differentiate between the types of pain, pain that injures, stimulates, redirects...or quit aikido for Mortal Combat..either way.

Been thinking a lot about this recently - how we all want a comfortable pain free life but that its impossible. Better to change how we see pain I think, its not necessarily violence.
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Old 10-22-2006, 04:20 PM   #10
roninroshi
 
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Re: Yankyo reeeeeeally hurts    :-\(

Mutant here as well...
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Old 10-22-2006, 05:05 PM   #11
graham
 
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Re: Yankyo reeeeeeally hurts    :-\(

Quote:
Also, it's well born in mind that the 4th technique comes after the 3rd, not only in numbering, but in resistance scenarios--if 1 fails, go to 2, to 3, to 4.
I'd not heard that before. Thanks.
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Old 10-22-2006, 06:00 PM   #12
raul rodrigo
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Re: Yankyo reeeeeeally hurts    :-\(

I'm a mutant too.


R
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Old 10-23-2006, 06:25 AM   #13
justin
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Re: Yankyo reeeeeeally hurts    :-\(

if you do a search on lenard sensei a regular poster on here you will find an excellent thread on why you should rely on pain as a guide to how effective a technique is, when i read the post it was one of those big penny dropping moments for me, in a way i wish i hadnt read it as i then had to change my whole way of thinking towards pins
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Old 10-23-2006, 10:40 AM   #14
Eric Webber
Dojo: Aikido West Reading
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Re: Yankyo reeeeeeally hurts    :-\(

In my dojo there is a tradition that has developed: a junior student asks the senior student "What's yonkyo?" and everyone who knows "the story" chuckles.

Story is that a junior student many years ago (who is now senior in the dojo) asked this question in the changing room, and his senior at the time proceeded to drive him into the floor with a killer yonkyo. Years later I asked the junior student of the preceding story (it was only he and I training that evening and he was my senior): "Hey sempai, what's yonkyo?" and he proceedes to chuckle then drive me into the mat with a killer yonkyo, then tell of his experience with that question.

So now, many years later, when someone asks me what yonkyo is, I laugh (as does anyone else present who's asked this question), then put "a little yonkyo" on the curious person, and recite the story for them.

Ahhh, the traditions that to live on....
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Old 10-24-2006, 03:16 AM   #15
Amanda
Dojo: Exeter Ki Aikido
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Re: Yankyo reeeeeeally hurts    :-\(

I guess I'm a mutant too, my Sensei can get me sometimes but no one else has managed it. I still submit to yonkyo because of the pressure on my forearm. The other problem is that some people take it as a challenge so I can end up with quite stunning bruises.
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Old 10-24-2006, 09:35 AM   #16
ian
 
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Re: Yankyo reeeeeeally hurts    :-\(

I love the feeling the next day when you can hardly move your hands

Yonkyo is a typical one that there can be difficulties getting it on. I put some tips here:


http://www.aikiweb.com/wiki/yonkyo

Also, to reduce the pain on yourself it does seem to be effective (don't ask me how!) to imagine key flow to this point, and to have a 'feeling' of extension through this point - give it a go.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 10-24-2006, 10:47 AM   #17
Joyce Lunas
Dojo: Kobukan Dojo
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Re: Yankyo reeeeeeally hurts    :-\(

Wow! Thank you, everybody. Each of you had sth interesting to say and i sure appreciate your immediate replies to this question of mine. I already know i can count on your help, for future reference.
By the way, thanx also for the correction: yOnkyo and not yAnkyo as i wrote
Feels sooooo good to know that there's someone out there to help.
Incidentally, it took the giant bruise 4 or 5 days to go away. My sensei's first "gift" to me..... But i dont feel sad about it; I am sure he will give me plenty others if I ask him

C u around, everybody
Take care and have fun
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Old 10-25-2006, 12:04 AM   #18
Jess McDonald
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Re: Yankyo reeeeeeally hurts :-\(

YOYO!!
Just yesterday I was a class where we did yonkyo. I happened to unknowingly "ongaishemas" to a very aggressive male. He did yonkyo on me several times and it *&^ing hurt!!! After several futile attempts to get the bas$%#^ back, I finally made HIM tap!! It was awesome to reciprocate the pain! Yonkyo is extremely powerful and very painful . With this guy, falling didn't help relieve the pain. I just took it like a man and tried to "get back at him". The one time I did was worth my sore arms of today. P.S. I know I shouldn't be trying to hurt my partners but this guy was ridiculous; it struck a competitive nerve in me . I would also like to use this time to play my "I'm a 6th kyu and don't know any better" card. Cheerio yonkyo friends!!
Jess
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Old 10-25-2006, 03:00 AM   #19
batemanb
 
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Re: Yankyo reeeeeeally hurts    :-\(

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote:
Also, it's well born in mind that the 4th technique comes after the 3rd, not only in numbering, but in resistance scenarios--if 1 fails, go to 2, to 3, to 4.

These helped me with execution, anyway (quite off the original topic, of course. Sorry.)
I always go to ikkyo first before attempting nikkyo, sankyo and yonkyo. From ikkyo, apply a sankyo twist to the wrist with one hand, this will create tension through the arm and help with locking it up, but also helps "expose" the nerves in the forearm for you to "massage" with the index knuckle of your other hand. .

Don't get caught up in trying to induce pain though, putting uke into position to apply the correct pin is the objective, pain is not required to get there.

rgds
Bryan

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Old 10-25-2006, 09:39 AM   #20
Eddie deGuzman
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Re: Yankyo reeeeeeally hurts    :-\(

Hey All,

No offense to the mutant forearm DNA crowd, but I wonder if yonkyo doesn't have more to do with the expertise of nage. There are yudansha in my dojo who can't do yonkyo on me, but the shihan always have me flopping like a fish out of water.

The same holds true for me. I do better with those less experienced than me and have a tougher time with those higher up the food chain.

The no pain mechanics work, but I wonder also if that is not a separate skill from the cut itself. Seated in seiza and applying yonkyo straight down into uke's forearms seems to me a separate skill than the standing version.

Food for thought,
Eddie
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Old 10-25-2006, 12:13 PM   #21
DonMagee
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Re: Yankyo reeeeeeally hurts    :-\(

I'm actually very much immune to pain that does not cause physical damage. Just a couple of years ago, pain would of gotten me to comply. Now you are going to have to do more then just cause pain. Otherwise I just ignore it and keep going. I'm a firm believer that you should never use pain for compliance, use threat of broken bones, torn tendons, or loss of blood/air to the head.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 10-25-2006, 08:28 PM   #22
raul rodrigo
Location: Quezon City
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Re: Yankyo reeeeeeally hurts :-\(

I was yonkyo resistant when I was a white belt, so my skill or tori's level of skill was irrelevant. I remember when we used to do the ikkyo to gokkyo series, yonkyo was the time I got a break from the pain. And these tori were often our yudansha, who were pretty capable of bringing tears to my eyes with nikyo or hijikime. I just got a break with one kind of osae.

The yudansha would bring me down with yonkyo anyway, because their cut down was impeccable.

And as our shihan said once during one demonstration of yonkyo: "ahh, he feels no pain? okay we break the arm."

Last edited by raul rodrigo : 10-25-2006 at 08:31 PM.
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Old 10-25-2006, 10:44 PM   #23
Tambreet
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Re: Yankyo reeeeeeally hurts :-\(

I'm one of those people who doesn't understand how yonkyo doesn't hurt some people.

We have one student at our dojo though (a true mutant?) who feels absolutely no pain from joint locks. Ikkyo, Nikkyo, Sankyo, Yonkyo - none of them work on him, not even when applied by the senseis. He feels pressure from some of them, but no pain, and has learned to tap or go down before any bones break.

It certainly adds a new perspective to doing the techniques!
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Old 10-26-2006, 08:02 AM   #24
Douglas Fajardo
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Re: Yankyo reeeeeeally hurts    :-\(

Hi Joyce
I know it hurts a lot , in my opinon ,please train a lot in order to be a better aikidoka , by the way, only experience will help you to feel less pain,but you will feel it anyway ,jajajajaj
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Old 10-26-2006, 01:27 PM   #25
daniel loughlin
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Re: Yankyo reeeeeeally hurts    :-\(

why am i the 1st person to simple say DURH ?

Danny Loughlin
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