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Old 07-23-2006, 05:59 PM   #1
statisticool
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Rutten and aikido connection

I found one.

For example, check out 3min 7 sec in Bas Rutten's clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiEsktRiCXo

And compare to the start of this clip featuring Tohei http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FE5jN...d&search=Tohei

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 07-23-2006, 06:17 PM   #2
eyrie
 
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Re: Rutten and aikido connection

I don't see any connection. What is it that you think you see?

Ignatius
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Old 07-23-2006, 06:32 PM   #3
markwalsh
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Re: Rutten and aikido connection

When I saw the Rutten video I felt deeply disgusted and disturbed. I've seen lots of kinds of violence in my life so I was curious as to why I had such a strong reaction. Some of his techniques weren't so different from the Tohei video that was a real joy to watch, but the contrast in attitude was the crucial thing. The spirit of martial arts as I see it, has nothing to do with ego, brutality and aggressiveness.

I was going to recommend that Aikiwebster avoid it, but I've changed my mind as I now I think it was instructional on two fronts:

1. For checking your emotional reaction to brutality.
2. For seeing the heart (or lack thereof) of antiaikido.

Oh, and know I know how to break someones knee if they insult my wife!!!!

Seriously, thanks for both links.
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Old 07-23-2006, 07:14 PM   #4
Nick Pagnucco
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Re: Rutten and aikido connection

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
I don't see any connection. What is it that you think you see?
I see a similar technique being applied, at least as far as someone grabs your head from behind, you grab their hand & pivot.
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Old 07-23-2006, 07:40 PM   #5
aikigirl10
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Re: Rutten and aikido connection

Bas Rutten is just ridiculous. Up until the last couple minutes of the video he looks like a 12 year old that drank a gallon of Mt. Dew and then watched too many karate videos.

It also looks like he fully relys on brute force.

Typical meat-head...

*Paige*
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Old 07-23-2006, 07:59 PM   #6
eyrie
 
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Re: Rutten and aikido connection

Yes, Nicholas, similar but *distinctly* different. Can you see the difference???

Nice observation Paige! All Bas' attackers are smaller in size and weight.... so big man can beat up small guy... nothing new here.

BUT... can anyone see any "holes" in what Bas is doing as "self-defence"???

Ignatius
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Old 07-23-2006, 08:32 PM   #7
rogue_buddha
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Re: Rutten and aikido connection

Wow, a search on aikido on youtube.com returned 591 results. I also found aikido based results for searches on Yamada, Ikeda, Shioda, Chiba and more! Thanks for the heads up on the video clips. Now if I could just find a clip of Gozo Shioda and JFK's bodyguards, that is what I would really like to see. Looks like a lot of good video material to study, compare and contrast.
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Old 07-23-2006, 08:40 PM   #8
statisticool
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Re: Rutten and aikido connection

I think the Rutten video teaches some pretty irresponsible things to be sure- like assualting someone merely because they want your seat, or shattering someone's knee merely because they called your significant other a name.

I just thought it interesting since it is often heard on MMA fan boards that aikido techniques can't be effective in real life situations, yet you don't hear them saying that about the techniques in Rutten's video, when he uses an aikido technique. Suddenly it is magically effective.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 07-23-2006, 08:57 PM   #9
Nick Pagnucco
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Re: Rutten and aikido connection

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Yes, Nicholas, similar but *distinctly* different. Can you see the difference???
Well, looking at it again, on the technique level, they're rotating in different directions. So Tohei is doing a sankyo, and the other guy is doing something like a shihonage without a bend in the arm.

Deeper down, though, they 'power' the techniques with different things. tohei dips in a path of least resistance, while Rutten seems to be just wrenching the guy's arm with pure torque. Even deeper than that is more internal stuff, I suspect, but I wont pretend I can see that.

One thing I do NOT see in the rutten clip is a sense of 'connection'.
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Old 07-23-2006, 09:03 PM   #10
eyrie
 
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Re: Rutten and aikido connection

Many common techniques are shared in a number of different martial arts, in that the "shapes" are similar, but the manner in which they are applied are quite different.

To be honest, I didn't see any similarities at all. Technically, there were major differences in the way the technique you are talking about in particularly (hair grab from the rear). For starters, Tohei turns inside into sankyo, whilst Bas turns outside for a reverse sankyo - what he calls an armbar. I can think of at least 1 other variation which is standard jujitsu/chin-na stuff.

So "technically" you can't say that is an aikido technique, apart from the fact that Tohei demonstrates what is essentially a common way to release from a rear hair grab. After all, the wrist only bends in so many ways from that position....

Ignatius
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Old 07-23-2006, 09:05 PM   #11
Don_Modesto
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Re: Rutten and aikido connection

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Nice observation Paige! All Bas' attackers are smaller in size and weight.... so big man can beat up small guy... nothing new here.
Embarrassing to have to say this, but Rutten has had plenty of attackers bigger than himself. He's a hell of a fighter.

Don J. Modesto
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http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
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Old 07-23-2006, 09:15 PM   #12
eyrie
 
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Re: Rutten and aikido connection

I'm sure he has Don... it would have made his video far more convincing if the attackers were..a lot.. bigger.

Lots of brute force, very little technique. And what technique there was, was very unconvincing... e.g. why go for the groin when the femoral nerve is exposed and closer?

Ignatius
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Old 07-23-2006, 09:30 PM   #13
Chris Birke
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Re: Rutten and aikido connection

Bas is hilarious. He doesn't take this seriously. He also absolutely knows what he's doing. Three places this discussion has gone wrong.

Witness his defense against the drunken monkey technique : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lINETRXEAI&search=

and realise how off base your critique is.

This self defense video might have some real technique, but its selling itself on its parody of people who take this stuff dead serious.

The fact that all of you believe he would actually shatter someone's knee for sake of insulting his wife is telling of what other delusions you may harbor.

Last edited by Chris Birke : 07-23-2006 at 09:33 PM.
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Old 07-23-2006, 09:42 PM   #14
Chris Birke
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Re: Rutten and aikido connection

Ahh, another parody "self defense" video from bas: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNXRI...elated&search=
to soldify my point exactly. (and provide amusement to those with a sense of humor)
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Old 07-23-2006, 11:46 PM   #15
Upyu
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Re: Rutten and aikido connection

Guys, I'm sure anyone thats worked out with good MMAers knows that those people are at heart, normal people, and as such are seldom actually like that. Bas is selling a product/image, and its a damn funny one at that.

If you want to debate the morality of selling your image as such to impressionable kids that think Matt Hughes is the 1Nd3structible (or whoever the current ufc/pride champion is), that's a different issue

The guy is a business man, pure and simple.

Here's a little food for thought. If you look at it from a certain perspective, Takeda Soukaku was also a business man. Maybe of the worse kind, considering the fact the guy went around the country "teaching" people as an excuse to see if his techniques would actually work. (And he charged the equivalent of 2000$ a seminar, without teaching jack to anyone).
"Yes, grab my wrist like that"
<snap>
"You're too weak, you need to train your body more"
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Old 07-23-2006, 11:58 PM   #16
eyrie
 
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Re: Rutten and aikido connection

My bad, I had no contextual background of the intent of the video. If it was indeed a parody, then it was damn funny....

Ignatius
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Old 07-24-2006, 06:13 AM   #17
statisticool
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Re: Rutten and aikido connection

Quote:
Chris Birke wrote:
This self defense video might have some real technique, but its selling itself on its parody of people who take this stuff dead serious.
Those other videos you linked to are obvious parody, and the content isn't sold on any instructional DVD, as far as I can tell.

The clip I linked to is apparently excerpts from

http://www.basrutten.tv/product_info...dvd&cName=dvds

which is not marketed as comedy, but as an instructional DVD.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 07-24-2006, 06:40 AM   #18
DonMagee
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Re: Rutten and aikido connection

I love that video! It changed the way I look at self defense.

BANG! BANG! BANG!

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-24-2006, 07:29 AM   #19
GLWeeks
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Re: Rutten and aikido connection

Wow...

I had just spoken with someone this weekend about getting this video and now I find a thread on it....

I have followed his career for quite some time now and he is a legend:

Muay Thai (The Netherlands - pre 1993)
Wins: 14 KOs
Entire Muay Thai career record: 14-1

Mixed Martial Arts (Japan and USA - 1993 to 2006)
Wins: 12 (T)KOs - 13 Submission - 3 Decisions
Losses: 3 Submission - 1 Decision
Entire MMA career record: 28-4-1

Do I care to ever study MMA full time? Nope, my focus is on my Aikido... Do I think he has something to teach? Of course.... I also enjoy his straight forward approch in teaching with a little Bas attitude.

It is very Aiki? Heck no, but it is not an Aiki world we live in and I am sure I will not see it so in my life time... I usually just leave myself open to new things that seem effective and add them into my 'toolbox'...

Thanks,

Guy

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Old 07-24-2006, 08:06 AM   #20
Mark Freeman
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Re: Rutten and aikido connection

After watching both clips, and reading the reactions on the thread I am left feeling glad that I study aikido.

If the clip was meant to be a parody ( if you follow the link Jason provides it seems that it is not as it is marketed as instructional ), then I don't think it worked, beacause if you laughed at it because you 'think' it is a parody, and then you find out it is meant to be 'serious', what does that say about it?

I'm not bringing the guys fighting abilities into question, but from an aikido viewpoint, his technique was sloppy, and the demo uke's provided nothing. If he was demonstrating aikido, then I would have seen parody.

His sole intention is to do the maximum damage, aikido aims to do the minimum, big difference.

I'm right with Mark Walsh on this one,

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 07-24-2006, 08:59 AM   #21
Dazzler
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Re: Rutten and aikido connection

Hmmm

Saying Bas Ruttens techique is sloppy is a bit like Nick Faldo saying Tiger Woods swing is all wrong!

It may not be good aikido, it may lack connection...do you think Bas gives a monkeys? As long as it works !

Talk is very cheap.

FWIW

D
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Old 07-24-2006, 09:31 AM   #22
DonMagee
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Re: Rutten and aikido connection

How can you not learn something from this video. I mean he advocates cutting the eyes out of your opponenet because he said your girlfriend was hot.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-24-2006, 09:36 AM   #23
GLWeeks
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Re: Rutten and aikido connection

Quote:
Daren Sims wrote:
Hmmm

Saying Bas Ruttens techique is sloppy is a bit like Nick Faldo saying Tiger Woods swing is all wrong!

It may not be good aikido, it may lack connection...do you think Bas gives a monkeys? As long as it works !

Talk is very cheap.

FWIW

D
Word.

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Old 07-24-2006, 10:21 AM   #24
Talon
 
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Re: Rutten and aikido connection

I must say that I was entertained by the Bas videos. They were hillarious. The techniques he shows look effective. Brutal but effective. What I find hillarious is his presentation, the way he presents is priceless.
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Old 07-24-2006, 10:35 AM   #25
Mark Freeman
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Re: Rutten and aikido connection

Quote:
Daren Sims wrote:
Hmmm

Saying Bas Ruttens techique is sloppy is a bit like Nick Faldo saying Tiger Woods swing is all wrong!

It may not be good aikido, it may lack connection...do you think Bas gives a monkeys? As long as it works !

Talk is very cheap.

FWIW

D
Talk is very cheap Daren, I know. I did say that from an aikido perspective. I know what he is doing is effective, I'm sure he doesn't give a monkey's about what I think, but you agree that it is not good aikido.

I'm interested in aikido and the effective practice and use of it. The philisophy is integral to the practice. This Bas guy peddles winning through destruction, IMO what he does has no aikido in it. I haven't got the slightest interest in learning what he has to offer, so you could say that I don't give a monkey's about him or his DVD selling empire.

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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