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Old 07-21-2006, 01:30 PM   #1
aiki03
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Aikido on the ground, questions.

I have a question.

First off, I do not live under a bridge - lol
Secondly, I'm just curious and I don't mean to project a message of "Aikido is not a good Martial Art".

That being said, here are my questions:

Do you ever think (being an Aikidoka) that you might (in a self defense situation) end up fighting on the ground?
If not, Why?
If so, what do you do about this?
Does Aikido provide any tools for this situation, or do you look to other arts for the answer to this situation?
If Aikido provides those tools, please explain..

Thankyou very much.

合気03. Peace.
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Old 07-21-2006, 01:42 PM   #2
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Ryan Doherty wrote:
I have a question.

First off, I do not live under a bridge - lol
Secondly, I'm just curious and I don't mean to project a message of "Aikido is not a good Martial Art".

That being said, here are my questions:

Do you ever think (being an Aikidoka) that you might (in a self defense situation) end up fighting on the ground?
I think my being an Aikidoka makes me less prone to end up fighting at all.
I am hoping to never end up fighting "on the ground" or "in the air"!
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Old 07-21-2006, 01:46 PM   #3
aiki03
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

I thought someone was going to respond with that answer.
Please, I would like to know the answer in regards to self defense in a confrontation where you are being attacked physically and you are ground fighting, not standing up fighting, but ground fighting.

合気03. Peace.
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Old 07-21-2006, 01:49 PM   #4
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

would this pretend assailant be armed?
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Old 07-21-2006, 01:50 PM   #5
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

If you look at the bottom of this page, you will see a section entitled Similar threads. Also, you can use the search feature. Your question is very general, so it would be hard to answer without writing a tome. But, here are a few quick thoughts:

Quote:
Do you ever think (being an Aikidoka) that you might (in a self defense situation) end up fighting on the ground?
Yes, anything could happen.
Quote:
If so, what do you do about this?
A) the best you can
B) Depends on the situation
C) If someone attempted a wrestling double or single leg take down, I would probably use a combination of a sprawl and a 45 degree pivot, combined with controling their head, check for multiple opponants, if none, and the ground is not too uncomfortable a surface, drop all the way to my knees and use suwari waza (kneeling techniques). Rather than risk giving them a dramatic takedown and superior position. My wrestling days are long over.

Quote:
Does Aikido provide any tools for this situation, or do you look to other arts for the answer to this situation?
I know many people who do bjj as well as aikido...some dojo actually have separate classes in bjj available to their aikido students.

Quote:
If Aikido provides those tools, please explain..
See above.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 07-21-2006, 02:03 PM   #6
Adam Alexander
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Ryan Doherty wrote:
I have a question.

First off, I do not live under a bridge - lol
Secondly, I'm just curious and I don't mean to project a message of "Aikido is not a good Martial Art".

That being said, here are my questions:

Do you ever think (being an Aikidoka) that you might (in a self defense situation) end up fighting on the ground?
If not, Why?
If so, what do you do about this?
Does Aikido provide any tools for this situation, or do you look to other arts for the answer to this situation?
If Aikido provides those tools, please explain..

Thankyou very much.
I tested myself (basically on a challenge that I was immature enough to take up).

1)Yoshokai seems to be implementing/exposing quite a bit of ground work in their style. I've seen some of it. I would say that it's simply demonstrating on the ground what they do on their feet.

2)During my challenge, the only time I could be taken down is when I allowed people to get hold of me. That took great effort on my part because I kept getting hold of fingers. Also, since I was so limited in the range of atemi in a "sparring" environment and limited on techniques I could use (it's not like I could grab anyone and take them on a first-control 180-- they didn't train to take that safely) I'd just let them grab me and go from there.

My Aikido made it amazingly difficult for anyone to take me down before I was totally exhausted (except for a BEAUTIFUL throw that I'll always be thankful for from a guy that weighed about fifty lbs less and half a foot shorter than me).

I CONSTANTLY had to hold back from exploiting openings.

When on the ground, it was the same. My Aikido kept me out of danger zones and it kept me in a position of control--the fundamentals were identical.

To answer your questions:

I don't know if I'll ever be on the ground or not. Maybe someone will creep into my house one night and be on me before I wake up.

Head-to-head or a couple-heads-to-me, I don't know for sure--there's no way to know--but I feel pretty good about staying on my feet.

The why: Because in the process of going to the ground, there's just too many openings that can be exploited.

I hear groundfighters laugh about the "I'll stick my finger in their eye" type responses. However, when you lean towards someone to grab them, you are dead. You've given your center. When you extend your arms, you've given away a lever.


I believe, in the way we train, there is an answer for everything. This opinion varies from others, take it or leave it. I tested it for myself. I found it to be true.


I hope that helps.


BTW: I suspect that your line of question--in consideration of another thread-- is motivated by what seems to be the natural tendency of martial artists not to trust the technique. Just my opinion, but I've found that Aikido is what you--the practitioner--make it. A fifty yr. old woman is going to find a different Aikido than the twenty yr. old bouncer. Aikido will fit what ever opening in your life you have--whether techniques for a given situation, social outlet, intellectual challenge, emotional fulfillment, etc. It's all there...but, in that respect, that's true of everything...If you wish typing on your keyboard to become those things, all you have to do is look for it.


BTW: The above "challenge" involved getting it on with between twenty to thirty guys of various levels--low kyu to third or fourth dan--all weights, all heights. It was a lot of fun and very informative.

Last edited by Adam Alexander : 07-21-2006 at 02:06 PM.
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Old 07-21-2006, 04:44 PM   #7
Aristeia
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Yes, if you are interested in the self defence aspect of martial arts you need to address the quetion of ground fighting. It may be possible to make some use of Aikido fundamentals on the ground, but only in the sames sense that it may be possible to use some things from an aerobics class in a boxing match.

In other words there are better quicker ways to gain competency - while continuing to use Aiki principals.
six months or so of good BJJ training will be enough for you to tick this box against the average assailant (i.e. give you some skills to control position and regain your feet).
Or you could do Aikido for 10 years for a much less return in terms of ground fighting (although countless other benefits).

So if you are concerned about self defence, do BJJ (or newaza focused Judo at a pinch, or wrestling) for a while alongside your aikido. Just be prepared for the fact that it is addictive and you may not want to stop after 12 months.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-21-2006, 09:32 PM   #8
Faith Hansen
 
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

In my dojo our Sensei teaches us ground defense. In fact the majority of our tests require ground defense. He trains us to be able to defend ourselves against other arts if needed. Its really nice to know. After I test for my shodan in September I am going to take up some BJJ classes myself (My sensei co-teaches them) to enhance my ground technique. I know ground isn't good for multiple attackers, but in the case that I am taken down I want to be able to have a fighting chance of getting back up.

I do believe that it is good to have some working knowledge of ground defense because even if you are an excellent Aikidoka you cannot assume you will never ever be taken down.

Just my two or three cents.

Faeth
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Old 07-21-2006, 11:36 PM   #9
xuzen
 
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Ryan Doherty wrote:
That being said, here are my questions:
Do you ever think (being an Aikidoka) that you might (in a self defense situation) end up fighting on the ground?
Probably. On the street, anything can happen. Sometimes people may even grab a dog's tail and swing it at you, you have to be prepared for all contingencies you know.

Quote:
If so, what do you do about this?
Anti-Canine Defense, ACD (TM) and Judo if you have time and money.

Quote:
Does Aikido provide any tools for this situation, or do you look to other arts for the answer to this situation?
I look elsewhere for things that aikido do not provide. I do not ask my dentist for tax related question.

Quote:
Thank you very much.
I try my best.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 07-22-2006, 12:39 AM   #10
RoyK
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

I agree that on the street "anything can happen" but ending on the ground is a really bad idea on the street, and if all you know is BJJ, that's exactly where you'll try to be.
Why is it a bad idea.. Because in the street your opponent might have a knife. and if you're in "guard", which is good for sparring, it's not good at all to avoid a stab. If he has friends around, and ur on "Mount", or doing Juje Gatami, you're still in big trouble. Running away when ur in full contact is hard.
And how're u gonna end the battle, with him tapping on the floor? Wouldn' it be nicer to send him flying towards a cement wall?

While useful in sparring, I think that in a real life situation you'd want to stay up as much as possilble.

That said, I too trained a bit in BJJ, and I too found that if that's your concern, 6 months to a year of BJJ will give you enough tools to handle almost every groundwork situation.

Last edited by RoyK : 07-22-2006 at 12:41 AM.
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Old 07-22-2006, 12:46 AM   #11
RoyK
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Oh I just realized that's not what you asked at all :/

uhmm, when training in BJJ, I found that some Aikido techniques are handy, and some aren't (like Kotegaeshi is hard to do when ur so close to a person), but u know when u start the sparring ur not on the ground right away, and that's when aikido helps you to get the upper hand, right when the battle starts.
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Old 07-22-2006, 05:00 AM   #12
statisticool
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

if you don't train the ground, will you be prepared for it?

if you do train the ground, will you be prepared for weapons or multiple opponents?

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Old 07-22-2006, 05:03 AM   #13
Aristeia
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Roy Klein wrote:
and if you're in "guard", which is good for sparring, it's not good at all to avoid a stab.
firstly no one's advocating that the OP only do BJJ, but I think you figured that out.

Secondly if you're on the ground and he's got knife - how would you avoid getting stabbed?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-22-2006, 04:05 PM   #14
DonMagee
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
firstly no one's advocating that the OP only do BJJ, but I think you figured that out.

Secondly if you're on the ground and he's got knife - how would you avoid getting stabbed?
The same way you avoid getting stabbed while standing, attempt to control the knife hand.

I've found that a lot of people open themselves up to wristlocks on in ground fighting. While they wont end the fight, they give you space to move your hips and get to a better position (or escape and stand up if this is the street). I've rolled with small joint manipulation allowed and once I had a new guy attempt to eye gouge me. As long as you can maintain the superior position you are mostly safe from harm. The problem with most bjj guys is they will sit in their guard. This is good for bjj competition, but bad for mma and 'the street'. But if you can maintain a superior position then you are safe from your attacker, and most likely can stand up and escape.

The biggest thing to remember is to move off the line, learn how to sprawl just in case, and control the head of your attacker. If you can keep that in mind you and you go to the ground you have a good chance of being the one in the superior position, which will let you get where you want to be faster.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-22-2006, 08:54 PM   #15
kaishaku
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Bridge and roll!
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Old 07-22-2006, 10:05 PM   #16
Aristeia
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Keith Krajewski wrote:
Bridge and roll!
from guard?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-22-2006, 10:06 PM   #17
Aristeia
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
The same way you avoid getting stabbed while standing, attempt to control the knife hand.

I've found that a lot of people open themselves up to wristlocks on in ground fighting. While they wont end the fight, they give you space to move your hips and get to a better position (or escape and stand up if this is the street). I've rolled with small joint manipulation allowed and once I had a new guy attempt to eye gouge me. As long as you can maintain the superior position you are mostly safe from harm. The problem with most bjj guys is they will sit in their guard. This is good for bjj competition, but bad for mma and 'the street'. But if you can maintain a superior position then you are safe from your attacker, and most likely can stand up and escape.

The biggest thing to remember is to move off the line, learn how to sprawl just in case, and control the head of your attacker. If you can keep that in mind you and you go to the ground you have a good chance of being the one in the superior position, which will let you get where you want to be faster.
I would venture that not much about basic BJJ strategy would change *other than* more of an emphasis on top game. In otherwords, if you're ont he bottom, guard is still your first point of call, control the body, try and lockdown the hand with the weapon, try and hit a sweep. Or kick them away and disengage back to your feet.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-22-2006, 11:26 PM   #18
kaishaku
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
from guard?
Whose guard? Either way, sit up and do some suwariwaza, if Aiki is your specialty. The thing that really needs to be practiced is escapes.
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Old 07-23-2006, 12:29 AM   #19
Aristeia
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

bridge and roll don't make alot of sense from anyone's guard. Hence my confusion given we were talking about guard.

Suwari waza is not a viable form of ground fighting. It's an exercise to improve tachi waza.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-23-2006, 05:51 AM   #20
RoyK
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Michael, let me rephrase my argument, which doesn't clash with yours at all.
What I meant is that from my limited experience in BJJ and watching BJJ fights, a ground fighter will try to get his opponent to the ground. Which on the street is not always the best idea.

If you end up on the ground because your opponent threw you or you tripped or something, there's no question that BJJ skills may save your life.
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Old 07-23-2006, 06:07 AM   #21
ian
 
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

I have been thrown in a real fight (rolled back onto my feet), but in another fight I have been tackled (trying to run-away from multiple attack - I do not recommend running away for this reason!) and ended up on the ground resulting in a very scappy situation.

I don't think aikido gives you any ground-fighting capabilities. Although 'wrist-locks' can be applied, usually the action is too fast from a prone position. Indeed I think a large amount of 'ground-work' in traditional martial arts is rubbish. Fitness , aggression and determination is a prime requist for survival in this position.

I would say aikido does help to prevent you from going onto the ground, but I assume traditionally the idea was that if you were on the ground you were as good as dead. Eye gouging is probably one of the better techniques from this position (but, obviously illegal in sport wrestling/NHB).

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 07-23-2006, 07:18 AM   #22
Jorge Garcia
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

I don't think Aikido practitioners need to worry about knowing BJJ or Judo. They need to worry about learning to keep their centers while they do Aikido. That's the training that will save their lives.
1) If you stay safe , make wise decisions, and use your common sense, you should never be in a fight in your whole life. That's what many 70+ men have told me. I am 50 years old. I came from a neighborhood where there were fights every day, and there, I learned to stay out of fights- not get into them.
2) Per chance if I was attacked, the chances of a BJJ man attacking me are so statistically slim, that it almost has no chance of happening. I have no fear of a good Judo man or BJJ man attacking me. I am 50 years old and it hasn't happened yet. In fact, I have never been attacked by another martial artist at all.
3) I have seen plenty of fights growing up and they were all street fights and I never saw a person fighting on the ground except for the one who had been knocked out (he was down there alone) or the one that the gang was kicking ( he also was down there alone). Street fighters stay off the ground if they expect to win. The ground means you have lost your fight. The ground in the streets is not an objective you train for. Their buddies always make the ground a place where 9 people kick you - not a place where you fantasize you will win, one on one.
4) Swazi waza is a training to keep your center. In our dojo, if a person can be pushed over in swari waza, we do it. I had a big guy try to push me over yesterday and just for fun (I am the teacher) I took him down and told him to get me off of him. He struggled for 5 minutes and couldn't do it. I laid on him, pinned him in various ways, shifted my weight and he couldn't get me off or hit me. There I was, a person with no Judo or BJJ training and another normal person couldn't get me off of him. That says to me my current training is sufficient. If I am attacked by a BJJ Man, it will just have to be my tough luck. If train for that, I might as well train for a 7 ft, 500 pound man attacking me or maybe I could train for a Krav Maga spy killer attacking me.

My point is that no one can train for every conceivable situation. To try to do so is to dilute your training because of limited time to train in everything for everything.The idea of being able to train for every situation is an impossible fantasy and a self delusion (with all due respect).

5) "Ninety percent of all fights end up on the ground" Can someone give me the scientific research for that statistic. I am not talking about the MMA, UFC or any sport art or contest. I am talking about 90% of all the fights. Who was there at "all the fights"?!!
That's a statistic that can't be proven.
I think that would not mean that 90% of all Aikido practitioners of at least 10 years training could be taken down by an average Joe. If you are attacked once in your life, you have a good chance (since it will be so rare), of having significant Aikido training by then. Your chances are almost 90% that attack will occur by an average person with no martial arts training (stay out of my barrio at night!) so I say you will be able to stay up if you keep your center.
I return to my original statement.
I don't think Aikido practitioners need to worry about knowing BJJ or Judo. They need to worry about learning to keep their centers while they do Aikido. That's the training that will save their lives.

Finally, if all this fails to convince, I need all the BJJ people on this board to describe the last legitimate real fight or attack you had, unrehearsed and unplanned,( a real street attack) describe how you ended up on the ground and how you defended yourself with BJJ . With all this training for the ground, it must surely happen a lot.


Thanks for putting up with me. I feel better now. Back to my normal life.
With a little "tongue in cheek",

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Old 07-23-2006, 09:35 AM   #23
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

I think Ryan went back under his bridge. (lol)
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Old 07-23-2006, 01:54 PM   #24
Aristeia
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Jorge - you're somewhat missing the point.
Before I get intot that though - the 90% of fights go to ground statistic probably comes from a study of altercations with police officers (and I beleive the figure has been inflated over time) - so yeah it's skewed as that's where the cops will be looking to take you.

Having said that, learning good ground defence isn 't about "what if I get attacked by a BJJer" It's not about "I want to take this street fight to the ground". It's about what do I do when it goes there against my will. Saying "i'll just stay on my feet" is the ostrich defence.

the interesting thing in hindsight about the first UFCs whas not how easily Royce won (that seems obvious in hindsight), but how even when there were two standup fighters in the cage, *both* of whom *wanted* to stay on their feet - it *still* went to the ground.

So having basic ground defence isn't about "training for every conceivable situation" it's about training for a very common one. Even if it's just enough to escape an inferior position, sweep, take top position, go to knee ride.

Much of your other arguments can be directed straight back at Aikido. How many aikidoka have been in a fight and used their techniques. Very few. Does that mean they should stop training? No because in terms of the martial aspect of what we do we train for the eventuality that we need it.

And remember that the OP was talking specifically about self defence application. No self defence program is complete without a workable ground component.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-23-2006, 03:29 PM   #25
statisticool
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
the interesting thing in hindsight about the first UFCs whas not how easily Royce won (that seems obvious in hindsight), but how even when there were two standup fighters in the cage, *both* of whom *wanted* to stay on their feet - it *still* went to the ground.
A safe environment, no possibility of weapons, of multiple attackers, a (relatively) cushy landing area to fall on, and getting paid for it, I don't blame them. And there have been fixes in sports/entertainment, and we never see the contracts, so putting all the above together I have a hard time seeing how UFC-ish events extrapolate to real life self defense situations.

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