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Old 07-16-2006, 06:16 PM   #1
rogue_buddha
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Suckerpunched, ouch

Hi, I am a long time reader of this forum and aikido fan whom took three weeks of aikido several years ago before severely aggravating my back and possible herniating my disk. I read everything I can about aikido and try to internalize the concepts as instinct.
I got a serious lesson about mai-ai last week while intervening with a female fast food manager and a (crack-addict or psychotic off his meds). I stepped in between and put my hands up which he came against and repeated the female managers last request to him. Next thing I know I can't see for a half a second because I got clocked with a big right. My exact thoughts were 1. I've been hit. 2.) I'm still standing 3.) I'm in a fight!!!!!
Anyway I didn't do any aikido locks or throws, but man did the posture, blocking and moving into him while reacting to his punches work like a charm. When he clocked me all I could think of was punching him back and I'm not sure what moves I could have used in that small asile besides shomen-ate. I understand most aikido moves but I learned that day unless they are instinct from practice they are not yours. He also threw a wooden baby chair at me from five feet, which thanks to the aikido blocks and unbendable arm, just glanced off my outstreched arm instead of hitting me in the head. The guy ended up running from the police getting maced and I'm told tried to head butt the officer on the way back to the patrol car after I left.

Things I learned that day:
1.) mai-ai is for real, a fight doesn't have to be agreed on by both parties for it to start. If he had a box cutter I would be dead.
2.) It was amazing how well the posture and blocks worked when moving into his space and reacting to his punches. He didn't get a clean punch on me again.
3.) I am lucky, If you see someone you think is dangerous or deranged, believe your thoughts and be careful. confrontation could lead to unexpected results.


My questions
1.) How do I intervene without getting suckerpunched? How do I hold my hands? My feet?
2.) what techniques can you use in a narrow aisle?
3.) How in the world do karate folks not mange thier hands in fights? I only punched that guy some 10-12 times and my knuckles and right hand appeared as if broken for the first 4 days after that, now only my index knuckle feels as if it may have been damaged.
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Old 07-16-2006, 06:55 PM   #2
aikigirl10
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Re: Suckerpunched, ouch

Quote:
John Bowers wrote:
My questions
1.) How do I intervene without getting suckerpunched? How do I hold my hands? My feet?
2.) what techniques can you use in a narrow aisle?
3.) How in the world do karate folks not mange thier hands in fights? I only punched that guy some 10-12 times and my knuckles and right hand appeared as if broken for the first 4 days after that, now only my index knuckle feels as if it may have been damaged.
1. You should be more aware of your surroundings. Don't turn your back for a second especially towards the person showing the most aggression which sounded like it was the man.

2. I don't really know of any. What i would have done, is just let the guy go where he wanted to. Don't resist against him by constantly blocking, but rather add momentum to him by stepping off the line of attack and then maybe giving him a push forward. If his momentum is great enough he will fall down.

3. You should only punch with your first 2 knuckles (index and middle knuckles). These 2 are the hardest to break, however, they can still be broken, depending on whether there is a covering on your hand and which part of the body you are punching. But the 1st 2 knuckles are definitely the only ones who should make contact.
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Old 07-16-2006, 07:28 PM   #3
rogue_buddha
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Re: Suckerpunched, ouch

aikigirl10 wrote:
Quote:
1. You should be more aware of your surroundings. Don't turn your back for a second especially towards the person showing the most aggression which sounded like it was the man.

2. I don't really know of any. What i would have done, is just let the guy go where he wanted to. Don't resist against him by constantly blocking, but rather add momentum to him by stepping off the line of attack and then maybe giving him a push forward. If his momentum is great enough he will fall down.
As for being more aware of my surroundings, Amen. You are preaching to the choir at this point.

I understand the concept of moving off the line of attack, but I was in a bad position. My back was two feet from the counter and the aisle was only 2-3 feet wide. I didn't have any room to sidestep or spin. So I went forward the only direction I could see where I was going.

I also never turned my back on him. I just made the mistake of letting him get so close I couldn't see his hands.
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Old 07-16-2006, 09:06 PM   #4
aikigirl10
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Re: Suckerpunched, ouch

Quote:
John Bowers wrote:
aikigirl10 wrote:

As for being more aware of my surroundings, Amen. You are preaching to the choir at this point.

I understand the concept of moving off the line of attack, but I was in a bad position. My back was two feet from the counter and the aisle was only 2-3 feet wide. I didn't have any room to sidestep or spin. So I went forward the only direction I could see where I was going.

I also never turned my back on him. I just made the mistake of letting him get so close I couldn't see his hands.
oh ok
I didn't really understand the situation entirely, but it sounds like it turned out fine.

I was just giving you a little general advice, not so much for that specific situation.
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Old 07-16-2006, 11:34 PM   #5
Chavez
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Re: Suckerpunched, ouch

Now you can use your experience to help you train.
Practice against a sucker punch over and over and over....from the left, right, low, high, drunk, stoned, enraged, domestic, ....any and all options you can think of. Ask others who have been sucker punched and use their experience.
One of my teachers use to have a practice session we called "Elevator Techniques" , where you and your partner would choose a small section of mats and do techniques only in that small area. It was a lot of fun and very eye-opening to what you can and cannot do. And later, with a good uke, you can actually practice in a small hallway or in an elevator..that`s what we did and it was so enlightening.
I have recently began training again and another class I am instituting is that every Sunday we would have class at a school or building and work out our techniques between parked cars, in stairwells..anyplace that people might have to physically use Aikido movements.
We had a nightclub owner/bouncer in our class and occasionally we would set up the dojo like his club ( chairs, tables and lots of innocent bystanders) and act out scenariors. Our first lesson was always to run away ( even in randori we loom for the first safe opportunity to escape) but when tecnique had to be used, it became very interesting.
Mind you, that your partners must have their ukemi first and foremost as they will be falling on stairs, concrete, cars, into and onto others. This made it for more of an advance class for us but it gave the other students something to look forward to and they were allowed to participate as Nages only..this also helped the advance students train even more on their ukemi. Give it shot, start VERY SLOWLY and safe.....it`s agreat add-on to regular classes.
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Old 07-16-2006, 11:51 PM   #6
Upyu
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Re: Suckerpunched, ouch

Getting sucker punched means that you weren't ready, which means there is no defense for it.
If you were ready for it, it wouldn't be a sucker punch

That being said, I wouldn't even bother using the fist. If you can get an open hand to his face, that means you can also grab his head, which means you could also slam his head into the nearest wall.

I know this is tangential but FWIW:
this is exactly where the body skills mentioned in the Jo-Trick Forum come into play.
Once you train your body to move in a more efficient manner in on a day to day basis in regular movement, coupled with the way the body is physically conditioned in oft neglected solo training exercises(which are the heart and core of any decent system), when the #"$" hits the fan, it can only move in a certain manner in response to a stimulus, only this time there's no techniques jamming your cerebellum. Jus some food for thought.
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Old 07-17-2006, 04:03 AM   #7
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Re: Suckerpunched, ouch

Sounds like you've been making alot of steps, progress is the fuel to keep on training, good luck.

To speak ill of anything is against the nature of Aikido
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Old 07-17-2006, 05:45 PM   #8
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Suckerpunched, ouch

Quote:
I stepped in between and put my hands up which he came against and repeated the female managers last request to him. Next thing I know I can't see for a half a second because I got clocked with a big right.
The sucker punch is (I'm guessing) the most common thing anyone has to deal with in a fight. I dont know how many times I've seen people get hit from behind when they weren't looking or simply popped in the face when they were still talking to the guy. If someone is within range to hit you "instantly" you have to assume they very well might and adjust accordingly. I'm hardly an expert, but I think paying attention to the angles is very important. It can mean the difference between being hit hard and being grazed slightly, or not being hit at all. Perhaps most importantly is keeping a ready eye on the hands...not looking directly at them, but keeping them well in sight of your peripheral vision and maintaining awareness of them. I once had a little kid walk up to me (I was in seiza) hand held next to his chest. What I thought was going to be a slow, half-hearted punch was delivered as fast as a little kid's young arms could send it. Without thinking I pivoted a little and cut his elbow, flipping him. He landed wanting me to do it again (I don't think I could have done it the first time if I had tried). Now, had this been an adult, i doubt I would have flipped him, but I kept my hands at the ready on the center-line which I think allowed me to stay inside of his very quick movement. Maybe it's a bad example, i don't know, but for what it's worth, there it is.
Quote:
Anyway I didn't do any aikido locks or throws, but man did the posture, blocking and moving into him while reacting to his punches work like a charm
.
It's amazing how a little posture can make a big difference. I have chronic posture issues which makes it hard to channel maximum power, but when it works right it always amazes me how easy it can be to negate someone's force.
Quote:
Things I learned that day:
1.) mai-ai is for real, a fight doesn't have to be agreed on by both parties for it to start. If he had a box cutter I would be dead.
2.) It was amazing how well the posture and blocks worked when moving into his space and reacting to his punches. He didn't get a clean punch on me again.
3.) I am lucky, If you see someone you think is dangerous or deranged, believe your thoughts and be careful. confrontation could lead to unexpected results.
Well said. It's not about being paranoid, it's about realizing anyone can be dangerous in the right/wrong situation and that any given situation, for all you know, could be it.
Quote:
My questions
1.) How do I intervene without getting suckerpunched? How do I hold my hands? My feet?
2.) what techniques can you use in a narrow aisle?
3.) How in the world do karate folks not mange thier hands in fights? I only punched that guy some 10-12 times and my knuckles and right hand appeared as if broken for the first 4 days after that, now only my index knuckle feels as if it may have been damaged.
1)Alive and at the ready, I think.
2)Why abandon shomen ate? It's a dandy. Any technique can be tightened up to fit in smaller quarters...but I don't think it helps to be thinking of what technique to use...if anything I think just rolling with the punches, figuratively and literally, is the way to go.
3)conditioning is a big part of it. Proper striking mechanics is too. I'm sure the first one would help a lot. I used to hit things a lot and after a while, my hands became less prone to pain when I did hit things...now it's been a while and it hurts a lot more when I do. The callouses don't look all that great to many women, but they do work well in a fight.
Anyway, I hope you'll all forgive my attempts to answer these questions as best I may...I know I'm not exactly an expert, but I do enjoy the chance to try and articulate my thoughts around situations like this.
Take care,
Matt

Last edited by mathewjgano : 07-17-2006 at 05:50 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 07-17-2006, 06:07 PM   #9
Keith R Lee
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Re: Suckerpunched, ouch

Quote:
John Bowers wrote:
Hi, I am a long time reader of this forum and aikido fan whom took three weeks of aikido several years ago before severely aggravating my back and possible herniating my disk. I read everything I can about aikido and try to internalize the concepts as instinct.
I got a serious lesson about mai-ai last week while intervening with a female fast food manager and a (crack-addict or psychotic off his meds). I stepped in between and put my hands up which he came against and repeated the female managers last request to him. Next thing I know I can't see for a half a second because I got clocked with a big right. My exact thoughts were 1. I've been hit. 2.) I'm still standing 3.) I'm in a fight!!!!!
Anyway I didn't do any aikido locks or throws, but man did the posture, blocking and moving into him while reacting to his punches work like a charm. When he clocked me all I could think of was punching him back and I'm not sure what moves I could have used in that small asile besides shomen-ate. I understand most aikido moves but I learned that day unless they are instinct from practice they are not yours. He also threw a wooden baby chair at me from five feet, which thanks to the aikido blocks and unbendable arm, just glanced off my outstreched arm instead of hitting me in the head. The guy ended up running from the police getting maced and I'm told tried to head butt the officer on the way back to the patrol car after I left.

Things I learned that day:
1.) mai-ai is for real, a fight doesn't have to be agreed on by both parties for it to start. If he had a box cutter I would be dead.
2.) It was amazing how well the posture and blocks worked when moving into his space and reacting to his punches. He didn't get a clean punch on me again.
3.) I am lucky, If you see someone you think is dangerous or deranged, believe your thoughts and be careful. confrontation could lead to unexpected results.


My questions
1.) How do I intervene without getting suckerpunched? How do I hold my hands? My feet?
2.) what techniques can you use in a narrow aisle?
3.) How in the world do karate folks not mange thier hands in fights? I only punched that guy some 10-12 times and my knuckles and right hand appeared as if broken for the first 4 days after that, now only my index knuckle feels as if it may have been damaged.

It's great that you managed to defend yourself, but I doubt Aikido had that much to do with your reaction, especially if you only took 3 weeks of classes "years ago." Reading and thinking about training != real training.

It sounds like you just put your hands up after someone hit, the natural reaction for anyone. That you managed to weather the storm is to be comended, but I wouldn't credit Aikido for it.

Last edited by Keith R Lee : 07-17-2006 at 06:14 PM.

Keith Lee
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Old 07-17-2006, 06:17 PM   #10
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Suckerpunched, ouch

Quote:
Paige Frazier wrote:
3. You should only punch with your first 2 knuckles (index and middle knuckles). These 2 are the hardest to break, however, they can still be broken, depending on whether there is a covering on your hand and which part of the body you are punching. But the 1st 2 knuckles are definitely the only ones who should make contact.
You might be right for all I really know, but I do know at least one or two people who would disagree. I think there are trade-offs between punching with the first two or the last three knuckles. The first two, having smaller surface area, are easier to strike with so they make contact together, giving more support and less chance of breaking; with the last three knuckles, it's easier to lead with the pinky knuckle by mistake and break it, but if done properly, I don't think it's necessarily a bad punch...particularly if it's conditioned well. Perhaps the advantage to punching with the last three knuckles is you have even more surface area through which to absorb the impact.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 07-17-2006, 06:25 PM   #11
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Suckerpunched, ouch

Quote:
Keith Lee wrote:
Reading and thinking about training != real training.
I agree thinking about Aikido isn't the same thing as doing it, but I do think what we're really training most of the time is our mind/body integration. We are already physically capable of doing essentially perfect techniques every time, it's the mind which we work on when we're on the mat...hence I can see how thinking "aiki" might make a difference...even if only slightly so.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 07-17-2006, 06:45 PM   #12
aikigirl10
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Re: Suckerpunched, ouch

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote:
You might be right for all I really know, but I do know at least one or two people who would disagree. I think there are trade-offs between punching with the first two or the last three knuckles. The first two, having smaller surface area, are easier to strike with so they make contact together, giving more support and less chance of breaking; with the last three knuckles, it's easier to lead with the pinky knuckle by mistake and break it, but if done properly, I don't think it's necessarily a bad punch...particularly if it's conditioned well. Perhaps the advantage to punching with the last three knuckles is you have even more surface area through which to absorb the impact.
You may have a *slight* point but i would be willing to bet that the overwhelming majority of martial artists would agree with me.

Out of the 3 martial arts i've had experience with, which are karate (very briefly as a child), aikido, and shaolin, I have been taught to punch this way in all of them. I'm also almost 100% sure that muay thai practitioners are taught this way after doing some research on it, and as for a striking art, i don't think you can really beat muay thai.

With that said, in *any* issue at all, there will always be "one or two people" that will disagree with you. That's just the way we as humans are.

*Paige*
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Old 07-17-2006, 11:22 PM   #13
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Suckerpunched, ouch

Quote:
Paige Frazier wrote:
You may have a *slight* point but i would be willing to bet that the overwhelming majority of martial artists would agree with me.
Out of the 3 martial arts i've had experience with, which are karate (very briefly as a child), aikido, and shaolin, I have been taught to punch this way in all of them. I'm also almost 100% sure that muay thai practitioners are taught this way after doing some research on it, and as for a striking art, i don't think you can really beat muay thai.
With that said, in *any* issue at all, there will always be "one or two people" that will disagree with you. That's just the way we as humans are.
*Paige*
My point is simply that the first two knuckles aren't the only viable striking points in a punch. There are more than one or two people who support the three-knuckle punch. Wikipedia-"Wing Chun practitioners punch with a vertical fist...The impact is made with the bottom three knuckles, which keeps the wrist in proper alignment and reduces risk of injury to the wrist. Wing Chun punches are always linear with the elbow pointed down. This makes the punch faster and structurally stronger, as the skeletal alignment is better than a horizontal punch."
There will always be debate as to which is better, but I don't think one is inherantly better than another, unless you're speaking in very specific terms...such as vertical or horizontally-oriented structural strength. There's a time and place for each.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 07-17-2006, 11:53 PM   #14
aikigirl10
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Re: Suckerpunched, ouch

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote:
My point is simply that the first two knuckles aren't the only viable striking points in a punch. There are more than one or two people who support the three-knuckle punch. Wikipedia-"Wing Chun practitioners punch with a vertical fist...The impact is made with the bottom three knuckles, which keeps the wrist in proper alignment and reduces risk of injury to the wrist. Wing Chun punches are always linear with the elbow pointed down. This makes the punch faster and structurally stronger, as the skeletal alignment is better than a horizontal punch."
There will always be debate as to which is better, but I don't think one is inherantly better than another, unless you're speaking in very specific terms...such as vertical or horizontally-oriented structural strength. There's a time and place for each.
Well, you're right it probably could go both ways, and it really is just a matter of opinion so i don't see any point in debating unless like you said, someone is speaking in very specific terms. But i do see what you're getting at.
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Old 07-18-2006, 02:53 AM   #15
Amir Krause
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Thumbs down Re: Suckerpunched, ouch

Quote:
Keith Lee wrote:
It's great that you managed to defend yourself, but I doubt Aikido had that much to do with your reaction, especially if you only took 3 weeks of classes "years ago." Reading and thinking about training != real training.

It sounds like you just put your hands up after someone hit, the natural reaction for anyone. That you managed to weather the storm is to be comended, but I wouldn't credit Aikido for it.

Same as my feelings, nothing about Aikido after 3 weeks, and even more so with several years passing. It's true even though you have succeeded, just as well as a 3-weeks practitioner loosing.


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Old 07-18-2006, 07:49 AM   #16
Upyu
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Re: Suckerpunched, ouch

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote:
My point is simply that the first two knuckles aren't the only viable striking points in a punch. There are more than one or two people who support the three-knuckle punch. Wikipedia-"Wing Chun practitioners punch with a vertical fist...The impact is made with the bottom three knuckles, which keeps the wrist in proper alignment and reduces risk of injury to the wrist. Wing Chun punches are always linear with the elbow pointed down. This makes the punch faster and structurally stronger, as the skeletal alignment is better than a horizontal punch."
There will always be debate as to which is better, but I don't think one is inherantly better than another, unless you're speaking in very specific terms...such as vertical or horizontally-oriented structural strength. There's a time and place for each.
So say most wingchun players until they get clocked in the head when the sh!# hits the fan.
All this debating of which knuckle aligment is better is really pointless if you ask me. It depends on the situation. I'd advise against developing the fixed mindset of "this is how you punch"

As for Muay thai being the ultimate striking art, I'd take a closer look as to "why" they tend to develop the strength they do, and it has nothing to do with technique.
Besides which, I'm sure Russian sambo guys would have a couple things to say about Muay thai being a "supreme" striking art

Think bigger.
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Old 07-18-2006, 05:16 PM   #17
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Suckerpunched, ouch

Quote:
So say most wingchun players until they get clocked in the head when the sh!# hits the fan.


Quote:
All this debating of which knuckle aligment is better is really pointless if you ask me. It depends on the situation. I'd advise against developing the fixed mindset of "this is how you punch"
Debate is never pointless if it leads to a better understanding, but I agree there is a time and place for each.
Quote:
As for Muay thai being the ultimate striking art, I'd take a closer look as to "why" they tend to develop the strength they do, and it has nothing to do with technique.
Sure there's technique involved...it's just that beating the hell out of yourself to condition the body into a walking callous (obviously a bit exagerated) has its advantages too.
Quote:
Think bigger.
I'll certainly try.
Take care.

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Old 07-18-2006, 05:34 PM   #18
aikidoc
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Re: Suckerpunched, ouch

Medically, a broken hand in the last two knuckles is called a bar room fracture. The first two knuckles is called a boxer's fracture. The labeling is due to a glancing blow of the last two fingers in a bar fight since most drunks don't know how to punch. THere is also less support there to absorb the force of the punch. Unless you go with all knuckles you are safer with the index and middle fingers knuckles.
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Old 07-18-2006, 06:52 PM   #19
David Orange
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Re: Suckerpunched, ouch

John,

an interesting summary. And I want to say you were very much on the right track. I have done very much what you did with excellent results a number of times:

Quote:
John Bowers wrote:
I stepped in between and put my hands up which he came against...[i] repeated the female managers last request to him. Next thing I know I can't see for a half a second because I got clocked with a big right.
Okay...not the getting clocked part, but stepping in, putting the hands up in chudan no kamae, the hands at the level of the offender's sternum.

Your mistake was that you stood there in front of him like this and you let him override the advantage of your position.

When you are in front of him with both hands up and he "comes against" your hands, all it takes is a little push with your hips and you can uproot him and throw him backward, maybe even head-first if he "comes against" your hands with much effort.

Regardless of what has been said, I think your reactions were definitely rooted in aikido. You just didn't have enough experience. Your problem was not insufficient ma-ai, but merely failing to move when he crossed the ma-ai.

A couple of experiences I've had with this precise situation (and those who have read these elsewhere-posted reminiscences are welcome to skip them):

A friend had an acquaintance who was very violent and who liked to brawl. Further, he was not a sporty brawler, but would hit you with anything and in a rage. If you caused him "ANY" pain, he instinctively lashed back in an effort to cause you "twice" that much pain. I had never met this guy and didn't know these things about him. He came to my friend's house while I was there and, while we were all in the backyard, he suddenly came up face-to-face with me and said, "What would you do if somebody was to attack you from right here?"

I had an instant intuition that the big right was coming as soon as I started to answer. He expected me to say, "Well, I would..." BOOM! He was going to hit me.

So when he said, "What would you do if somebody was to attack you from right here?", I said, "THIS!" and dropped my weight, thrust my right foot back and thrust both hands forward at his chest, not quite touching him. Since I was already expecting the right, I was prepared to shove him back hard. His right would not have connected. Also I would have lowered my head as I entered straight into him. This took a blink of an eye and it sort of shocked him.

He could see that he couldn't successfully attack at that moment. He said, "Yeah, that's pretty good." and he walked away. It's probably a good thing I didn't touch him.

Another time, two guys got after me and I maneuvered to the outside of one. When he turned toward me, I entered as before, both hands at his sternum level, and he "came against" my hands. He tried to push me back with his chest, but it caused him to uproot himself and he stopped. The other guy was to my right. If he attacked, I would have groin-kicked the guy in front of me so that I could step forward, out of the other guy's line of attack, and then I would have back-fisted him in the head.

Note that I did not have to do any technique or even apply any strength in either confrontation. It was almost exactly the same thing you did, but I had a lot of randori experience by then, three or four years instead of three weeks.

Still, you were aware of the posture, coordinated movement and use of the "ki arms". And that is the basics. What you learn in the first few aikido lessons is what you do at the highest applications.

You don't have to be a slave to aikido for it to serve your life.

Now, as to striking, it's better not to use a closed hand at all. The deadliest strike in aiki is applied with an open hand (unless you happen to have a weapon).

I say this with a karate background, of course, and I did describe a strategy of groin kicking and backfisting to the head. There was another time when a backfist to the head figured large in my strategy in an encounter with two muggers. Fortunately, again, it was not necessary to use it.

However, since then, I've trained in tai chi, xing yi and baguazhang. Bagua uses the open hand and palm almost exclusively, parrying and redirecting attacks and penetrating with palm strikes to vital areas, delivered with internal power. I would hope that today I would not close my hand in an encounter. It's bad for the ki flow.

""2.) what techniques can you use in a narrow aisle?""

Entering as you did, but surging forward and shoving him back will work nicely if you time it well.


""3.) How in the world do karate folks not mange thier hands in fights? ""

Their hands are always mangled. Mochizuki sensei's first two knuckles looked like one contiguous plate of bone.

Kiotsukete, ne?

Best wishes,

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 07-18-2006, 08:15 PM   #20
Upyu
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Re: Suckerpunched, ouch

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
However, since then, I've trained in tai chi, xing yi and baguazhang. Bagua uses the open hand and palm almost exclusively, parrying and redirecting attacks and penetrating with palm strikes to vital areas, delivered with internal power. I would hope that today I would not close my hand in an encounter. It's bad for the ki flow.
Just ... couldn't... resist...

Using a fist isn't necessarily bad, and its not bad for "Ki" flow, assuming David even knows what Ki flow is?
Simply clenching the hand is bad for the "ki" flow. Hold it like they do in Baji, and it's just fine. But that's assuming you have a connected body and can move things in a unified manner.

I will relent this much and say David's correct about using the palm, (not in its ub3r d3ad1lniess) but if you don't know how to punch, it's better to stick to a palm. It's harder to screw up the aligment.
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Old 07-18-2006, 09:02 PM   #21
David Orange
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Re: Suckerpunched, ouch

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Just ... couldn't... resist...

Using a fist isn't necessarily bad, and its not bad for "Ki" flow, assuming David even knows what Ki flow is?
Hey, Rob,

After all your schooling in our previous discussions, I did go look up Sam Chin (or is it Chinn?) Very intersting that his home page defines ki in almost the same terms I use. You might want to review that.

Quote:
Simply clenching the hand is bad for the "ki" flow.
Which is why I said that.

Quote:
Hold it like they do in Baji, and it's just fine.
Or as they do in xing yi or taiji.

Quote:
David's correct about using the palm, (not in its ub3r d3ad1lniess) but if you don't know how to punch, it's better to stick to a palm. It's harder to screw up the aligment.
Of course, in bagua, "the palm" is the whole arm and, ultimately, the whole body.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 07-19-2006, 03:31 PM   #22
Upyu
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Re: Suckerpunched, ouch

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
After all your schooling in our previous discussions, I did go look up Sam Chin (or is it Chinn?) Very intersting that his home page defines ki in almost the same terms I use. You might want to review that.
Except for the fact that he doesn't actually describe the body mechanics in those terms when he teaches.

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Or as they do in xing yi or taiji.
Of course, in bagua, "the palm" is the whole arm and, ultimately, the whole body.
Wow, for once we might be in agreement ??!
And by whole arm, I'd specify the "whole arm" as it relates to both arms, and not singular arm that is delivering the strike.
But those discussions would probably derail this thread.

Nice post David.
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Old 07-19-2006, 03:57 PM   #23
David Orange
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Re: Suckerpunched, ouch

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Except for the fact that he doesn't actually describe the body mechanics in those terms when he teaches.
I'm only talking about his definition of what ki/chi is. He and I say the same things.

You like to go on about body mechanics, but the truth is none of that ki stuff works "without" proper body alignment. It's there in basic aikido, basic taiji, but also in "natural" human movement as we see in babies if the baby hasn't been traumatized. Humans naturally move correctly, just like lions and tigers naturally move correctly. It's bad education that takes us away from that.

Quote:
Wow, for once we might be in agreement ??!
Since I've always said what your heroes say, I don't know why you ever felt it necessary to try to disagree.

Quote:
And by whole arm, I'd specify the "whole arm" as it relates to both arms, and not singular arm that is delivering the strike.
It's both arms, the torso, the waist, the knees, the ankles and feet, the head, the eyes, the fingertips. If the whole body is not one responsive unit, there's no sense trying to strike anyone with your hand. It will have no root, no power and no safety.

Rogue buddha, who started this thread, seems to have had all that well established. He just wasn't prepared to move "with" the attacker. He was a little too static, but later he deflected a wooden high chair thrown at him, by using "ki arms". The truth is, aikido is really simple and its the teaching method that makes it appear obscure and keeps the student blinded to the simplicity.

Quote:
Nice post David.
Thanks.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 07-19-2006, 04:58 PM   #24
rogue_buddha
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Re: Suckerpunched, ouch

Thanks for all the comments and feedback from everyone. I hope nobody gets the impression that I learned aikido in three weeks before I hurt my back. Actually I learned very little in the few lessons I took. It was just a blur of learning the etiquette, trying to learn to roll, watching the sensei do a move on someone several times, then being matched up with someone with my own experience to try to recreate the move. The instructor of the class does come by and give some pointers during each technique, but sometimes it was when I was being uke and sometimes when I was nage. All in all, I found it very hard to pick up with just my brief experience. I hope to take some more aikido when I get some health insurance and a less physical job.
Having said that, I'm guessing that someone besides myself would find some value in self study(reading, watching videos, aikido3d) to get a general understanding of the art. Especially for a beginner like myself. I have several books, videos, and even aikido3d, and as the books say I try to internalize the concepts of one point, the unbendable arm, and moving your body and arms as a single unit.
As to the fight, I didn't give much details but, my getting suckerpunched had to do with me thinking I could reason with this person. I stepped in between, as I saw he had tunnel vision for her and my mistake was I didn't stick my arms out, but I just had them palm out against my stomach, which he came up against. Way to close. Definite learning experience. Once the fight was on, I didn't do any aikido locks or throws. The third time I moved into him he threw a wild right, which when it hit my extended left arm and turned turned him completely sideways, putting him off balance with me in his space. If there was more room to that side I probably could have gotten a nice shiho-nage, or kote-gaeshi. Since my right hand was about a foot and a half from his left cheek I hit him about 6-10 times with my right in about a second or two and he staggered out the door, only to come back in about three minutes later and pick up a wooden baby chair and come after me.
Some other things I learned:
1.)Punching someone hurts,
2.)Even if you get several good punches at someone they may not go down.
3.) Just because they leave the fight doesn't mean it is over, they might come back.
4.) You reason with sane people, not crazy ones.

All in all, my experience just makes me want to learn more about aikido. I might need it
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Old 07-20-2006, 11:59 AM   #25
Devin McDowell
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Re: Suckerpunched, ouch

"2.) what techniques can you use in a narrow aisle?"
Throw a backhanded strike to the temple. If he moves to block, grab his arm and step through him, doing a linear version of robuse. If he doesn't block - hit him again!

Also, tenbin nage done by stepping across his body may work, but that depends heavily on angles.

Irimi nage also comes to mind. Especially a straight in version stepping through with the inside leg. That one is especially nasty though. Use with caution.
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