Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Training

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-05-2006, 02:08 AM   #1
stelios
Dojo: aikido dojo nippos Crete
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 75
Greece
Offline
Fellow students "teaching" !

Has it ever occured to you being annoyed by some fellow students who think they know all and everything and they keep telling you that everything you do is a mistake despite the teacher being prsent? One can accept kind critisism on technique execution but when the critisism is a) constant b) from lower kyu syudents c) false d) from newcomer who cannot comprehend the technique fully it becomes reeeealy annoying !
I have to admit I did it as a begginer but soon my sensei pointed out the err in the action. One can also support the view that it is unethical to correct your partner all the time and in every chance you have especially when sensei is around and watching you.
Telling in a very calm tone to my fellow student lead nowhere and he just keeps on doing it. Any suggestions?
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2006, 02:38 AM   #2
justin
Location: swansea wales
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 249
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Fellow students "teaching" !

grow a thicker skin and just ignore him let him, that might be easy for me to say as i haven't come across this often in my dojo but i would like to think that is what i would do.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2006, 03:22 AM   #3
Dirk Hanss
 
Dirk Hanss's Avatar
Dojo: Aikidoschule Trier
Location: Merzkirchen
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 471
Germany
Offline
Re: Fellow students "teaching" !

Hi Stelios,
I have one, too.

You can

a) ignore him, if it is not too often.
b) show him, that your technique works well
c) tell him shortly to shut up - it is training time and not conversation

After the session, you can tell him, that - as junior - there is know way to correct a senior student.
He might be right - but he is not able to decide, if there are other issues, you have to train, regardless what he has seen from sensei's teaching.

Dirk
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2006, 06:15 AM   #4
Mark Uttech
Dojo: Yoshin-ji Aikido of Marshall
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,218
Offline
Re: Fellow students "teaching" !

In the past, I simply refused to pair up with a 'shadow teacher' (that is what they have been called). When a 'shadow teacher' has a hard time finding a partner, it gives them a chance to change; (or disappear forever). If called to question why you refuse to pair up with such a person, you can honestly explain why.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2006, 10:16 AM   #5
John Boswell
 
John Boswell's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland, Texas
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 597
United_States
Offline
Re: Fellow students "teaching" !

One thing I do when confront with a 6th kyu "shihan," I just shut up and shrug a whole lot. Do what you do that you know to be right and wait for Sensei to correct you. Then, as Kyuhan is doing his wrong technique, make sure you give a "committed attack." If they can't move you, and they won't be able to, then they'll realize they are doing something wrong! At that point, ask Sensei to come over and show YOU BOTH the proper technique again.

Rinse and repeat.

PS: I'm guilty of this as well. I think everyone is to some degree. I just REALLLY make it a point to try and keep my mouth shut when I'm someone elses dojo.

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2006, 10:44 AM   #6
Jorge Garcia
Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
Location: Houston
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 608
Offline
Re: Fellow students "teaching" !

As an instructor, I don't like the students teaching each other and I don't allow it. When I was a student, I didn't like students doing it to me. I once had to stop a guy and say to him, "Can you see our Sensei over there? He is the person I am paying to teach me."

The problem is that
1) Sometimes the students teach incorrectly and that messes up what the Sensei is teaching.
2) It is frustrating to the beginner for one person to tell you one thing and another person to tell you the same thing the last guy showed you is wrong.
3) Once someone starts teaching you, often, they tend to become a second teacher-permanently.
4) It teaches the younger students to do the same thing. Then you have ignorance instructing knowledge.
Those are a few of the reasons I feel the way I do. I believe you have to earn the right to teach someone.
Best wishes,

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2006, 12:30 PM   #7
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland Texas
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,652
United_States
Offline
Re: Fellow students "teaching" !

There should only be one teacher on the mat. In my experience, when others start showing their partners how to do things 'correctly' they are often doing it incorrectly. The only ones I allow to assist me are my black belts. My recommendation with the shadow teachers is to either call the sensei over or just do your technique. You might indicate that you are trying to model what the instructor showed and they are confusing you with their feedback. Some have a natural tendency to instruct others and it can be difficult for them to not do so. They generally do not mean anything by it but it can get annoying. I have this tendency and have to watch myself. Generally, though a lower ranked person should not be giving instruction to those ranked above them period. If they think something is wrong then they should do the technique the way they think it should be done and let the sensei make corrections.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2006, 12:33 PM   #8
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,174
Offline
Re: Fellow students "teaching" !

...they keep telling you that everything you do is a mistake ..."

There is a simple solution , duct tape.

Last edited by dps : 07-05-2006 at 12:35 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2006, 12:46 PM   #9
Guilty Spark
 
Guilty Spark's Avatar
Location: Flordia
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 300
United_States
Offline
Re: Fellow students "teaching" !

Quote:
As an instructor, I don't like the students teaching each other and I don't allow it.
1) Sometimes the students teach incorrectly and that messes up what the Sensei is teaching.
Agreed and you're obviously in a MUCH better position to comment. I'm just wondering, could you also say that one of the best ways to learn is in fact to teach others?

Some of my most enjoyable moments in aikido have been helping new students understand something because I was JUST in their shoes not long ago. I know exactly what their thinking/how their frustrated.
I've found that a light clicked on for me often when I would be showing or helping a newer student.

Your sensei telling you knee forward, knee forward, shift your weight is one thing, when you're the one saying it to someone else and you actually see WHY someone needs to have their knee forward or to shift their weight I find it sinks in on a bit of a different level.
Obviously the cons of students teaching students are pretty big. It's all too easy to impart bad habits for half an hour or an hour requiring the sensei to undo everything and start over. The possibility of egos from the students (or a pecking order?) is there as well as well as resentment. I couldn't stand one student who wouldn't shut up about how this would never work or that would never work or how they did things differently in his other martial arts.

In larger classes I would imagine the sensei doesn't have that much time to devote to every student and in some cases higher belts helping younger ones would be beneficial? Say a green belt helping a white belt with the basics or break falls as concurrent activity while the sensei helps a more advance group of students work on what they need for their next test.

Lastly I'd think that if students aren't given any exposure to teaching during younger levels it will be that much more difficult when they reach shodan for example. (where they may somewhat forget what its like to try see aikido as a square vice a circle.)
I'd figure there are benefits in slowly "teaching someone how to teach or coach" which is a skill in itself. Only letting someone teach at a high level might mean they know all the techniques but they have poor teaching habits which could be just as detrimental, no?

In taekwondo those students willing to teach/coach others were under a more powerful microscope from the instructors and mistakes by the students teaching other students were delt with more firmly. I would say they were held to a higher standard which in that situation I think makes sense.

Last edited by Guilty Spark : 07-05-2006 at 12:48 PM.

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

You don't own what you can't defend
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2006, 01:14 PM   #10
Jorge Garcia
Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
Location: Houston
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 608
Offline
Re: Fellow students "teaching" !

It's not the teaching that is the problem, It is the knowledge. In order to teach anything, you need in depth prerequisite knowledge and the beginner doesn't have it. You don't know what you don't know, so there's no way for a beginner to know what he knows or doesn't know until he has spent some years on the mat and by then, he should be a black belt.

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2006, 01:16 PM   #11
Guilty Spark
 
Guilty Spark's Avatar
Location: Flordia
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 300
United_States
Offline
Re: Fellow students "teaching" !

Fair enough Jorge. What about Kyu belts coaching? Do you think there is (can be) a difference betweem "teaching" and "coaching"?

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

You don't own what you can't defend
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2006, 01:25 PM   #12
deepsoup
Dojo: Sheffield Shodokan Dojo
Location: Sheffield, UK
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 524
Offline
Re: Fellow students "teaching" !

Quote:
Grant Wagar wrote:
Agreed and you're obviously in a MUCH better position to comment. I'm just wondering, could you also say that one of the best ways to learn is in fact to teach others?

Some of my most enjoyable moments in aikido have been helping new students understand something because I was JUST in their shoes not long ago. I know exactly what their thinking/how their frustrated.
I've found that a light clicked on for me often when I would be showing or helping a newer student.
That's more in tune with the dojo culture where I train. (And, I'd say, with many other Shodokan dojos.) Its normal for people to "teach" a little bit. (Emphasis on "little" there.)

Obviously there's a balance to be struck, often you just have to shut up and let your partner practice. But a kyu grade wouldn't be expected to just let a complete newbie struggle, and a dan grade would be expected to give a kyu grade a little pointer now and then.

Sean
x
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2006, 02:29 PM   #13
Lan Powers
Dojo: Aikido of Midland, Midland TX
Location: Midland Tx
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 659
Offline
Re: Fellow students "teaching" !

quote>Then, as "Kyuhan" is doing his wrong technique, make sure you give a "committed attack."
<unquote

Gotta love that term!!
Have to keep that one for later....mumbling, making scribbled notes.
Lan

Play nice, practice hard, but remember, this is a MARTIAL art!
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2006, 03:04 PM   #14
Jorge Garcia
Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
Location: Houston
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 608
Offline
Re: Fellow students "teaching" !

Quote:
Grant Wagar wrote:
Fair enough Jorge. What about Kyu belts coaching? Do you think there is (can be) a difference betweem "teaching" and "coaching"?
A little coaching is ok but then, it feels bad when the Sensei has to rein you in if you go too far. If there is a new person, I usually pair them up for the class with a black belt that can help them constructively. I know people like to help others but for lower kyu ranked people, they should be helping themselves first. It is ok to guide your partner a little but it's also good for a person to struggle a little and to figure things out for themselves. I have always like to figure things out and process things myself. People are often way too anxious to help me. They want to help me more than I want to be helped.
Best wishes,

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2006, 02:49 AM   #15
Mike Hamer
 
Mike Hamer's Avatar
Dojo: Shinki Rengo, Mt. Pleasant MI
Location: Alma, MI
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 244
United_States
Offline
Re: Fellow students "teaching" !

I brought my best friend to Aikido last week, his name his Jose. Being his best friend, knowing it wouldnt bother him, I was tempted to tell him he was not following the Sensei's instructions for rolling. I didnt, because I knew that I myself could be wrong. Not sure why sensei didnt say anything, maybe he wasnt doing it wrong, didnt notice, I dunno

Jose broke his collar bone the next day trying to show off his rolls....sigghhhh....



Looks like I wont get to practice outside of the dojo for a long time.....

To speak ill of anything is against the nature of Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2006, 10:40 AM   #16
Hucqie
Dojo: Cape Town School of Aikido
Location: Cape Town
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12
South Africa
Offline
Re: Fellow students "teaching" !

This thread got me thinking about how I train and what I say on the mat during training.

Do you classify telling Tori where you felt their technique breaking down as teaching? Surely this just guides them towards improving their technique, ie, still giving them the opportunity to figure things out on their own. I think that resisting the technique and remaining silent is demotivating for Tori and can make them feel that you are being intensionally difficult, while going along with a technique when it is not working is not honest.

So much depends on the culture on the mat, Often when class mates offer advice it strengthens the feeling of camaraderie on the mat, ie. we are all working together towards the same goal.

There are other times when advice offered to me is not well welcome / well received then typically I say something like "shhhht" and try to figure things out on my own, by this stage though I am pissed off and I struggle with the technique even more.

Conclusion: I think that it is up to the Sensei to determine the amount of talking that he / she allows on the mat, a mat is only so big and the Sensei should be aware of what is happening on it. If the Sensei reprimands someone for "teaching" then that person more than likely won't try it again, the other students will see this and will also fall into line. However, if the Sensei allows "discussions" on the mat then that is what there will be. In this case it is up to the individual to control the amount of "teaching" that they receive.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2006, 11:16 AM   #17
Eric Webber
Dojo: Aikido West Reading
Location: Reading, Pa
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 261
United_States
Offline
Re: Fellow students "teaching" !

Quote:
Stelios Papados wrote:
Has it ever occured to you being annoyed by some fellow students who think they know all and everything and they keep telling you that everything you do is a mistake despite the teacher being prsent? One can accept kind critisism on technique execution but when the critisism is a) constant b) from lower kyu syudents c) false d) from newcomer who cannot comprehend the technique fully it becomes reeeealy annoying !
I have to admit I did it as a begginer but soon my sensei pointed out the err in the action. One can also support the view that it is unethical to correct your partner all the time and in every chance you have especially when sensei is around and watching you.
Telling in a very calm tone to my fellow student lead nowhere and he just keeps on doing it. Any suggestions?
Can you throw him with enough gusto and speed (obviously not to really damage him) that he cannot breath and talk at the same time? Most ukes can either roll or talk, not both simultaneously. Good luck.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2006, 11:22 AM   #18
Jorge Garcia
Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
Location: Houston
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 608
Offline
Re: Fellow students "teaching" !

Quote:
Brandon Hucq wrote:
Do you classify telling Tori where you felt their technique breaking down as teaching? Surely this just guides them towards improving their technique.
Yes, that is teaching.

Quote:
Brandon Hucq wrote:
Often when class mates offer advice it strengthens the feeling of camaraderie on the mat, ie. we are all working together towards the same goal.
It is funny to me how those that teach always seem to rationalize it and how they think that the uke should really appreciate it. Whatever your reasons, they are irrelevant to the point. The Sensei is in charge of the teaching. If you want to bless the students with your wisdom, start your own dojo and then teach them.
Whatever the Sensei allows is the rule.
I personally hate it when I start getting advice I didn't ask for.

Best wishes,

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2006, 07:37 PM   #19
Mike Hamer
 
Mike Hamer's Avatar
Dojo: Shinki Rengo, Mt. Pleasant MI
Location: Alma, MI
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 244
United_States
Offline
Re: Fellow students "teaching" !

I welcome any type of advice from anyone in my Dojo, as they have all had more expirience than me.

Except for this one girl named Sara, Ive been to one more class than her.

To speak ill of anything is against the nature of Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2006, 11:35 PM   #20
Jorge Garcia
Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
Location: Houston
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 608
Offline
Re: Fellow students "teaching" !

That may change Mikel the day you really know what you are doing and someone who clearly doesn't tries to teach you.
Best

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2006, 03:19 AM   #21
Pauliina Lievonen
 
Pauliina Lievonen's Avatar
Dojo: Jiki Shin Kan Utrecht
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 561
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Fellow students "teaching" !

If I really know what I'm doing, and someone clearly doesn't, what's there to be annoyed about?

kvaak
Pauliina
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2006, 02:57 PM   #22
giriasis
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, Florida
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 819
United_States
Offline
Re: Fellow students "teaching" !

Quote:
Pauliina Lievonen wrote:
If I really know what I'm doing, and someone clearly doesn't, what's there to be annoyed about?

kvaak
Pauliina
I agree with Pauliina, just let it go if they are more advanced than you.

I think the annoyance, though, is when someone new or junior does the correcting. The more advanced I get I've noticed that the correcting gets less but when it does happens their question is usually them reflecting on how I'm doing the technique which is difference from their perception of how they saw the technique. In other words, I think instead of asking a question such as, "why are you doing this?" They instead assume you're wrong and just correct you. I'm beginning to learn to turn the "correction" around into a question and address the point of their confusion. Of course, I'm just now figuring this out after 7 years of practice. If they do annoy you and you don't really understand yourself, just ask the sensei to come over and explain.

Also, as menitoned in some dojo cultures the senior ranked students are expected to help the "newer" students. In our basics classes, our sensei will actually request the "older" student pick a "newer" student and it's expected that the "older" student help teach. Of course, this is also under his watchful eyes and he does step in when the "older" totally confuses the "newer". Now, when he does this to me I pay close attention as how he teaches the newer student, and from there I learn how to explain a more difficult concept or technique. (Also realize "older picking newer" means a 5th kyu picking a newbie or a 5th dan picking a shodan.) But I can see how this practice can be annoying to those people who train in schools where the sensei and only the sensei teaching the class teaches.

Anne Marie Giri
Women in Aikido: a place where us gals can come together and chat about aikido.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2006, 05:27 PM   #23
Qatana
 
Qatana's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Petaluma, Petaluma,CA
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 834
Offline
Re: Fellow students "teaching" !

I take correction from some of my kohai, the ones that have superior technique to me, the ones who haven't tested as often as I have, the ones who have a clue.Even the 12 year olds have something to teach me, if only noticing whether the hand grab was from the top or the bottom.
I will no longer do this outside of my own dojo, however. if someone is wearing a white belt out of "humility" I will simply mention that a white belt does not correct someone in a colored belt. This being, of course, only if I am training at a colored belt dojo.

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2006, 01:37 AM   #24
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: Fellow students "teaching" !

Are you not 'teaching' or 'coaching' simply by being uke. If I don't feel your technique is working and I simply stand there. I'm teaching you. Are the people who feel students should not teach of the opinion they should be a 'easy' uke and just go along with it until the sensei corrects them? If that is the case, are you not being insincere in your training and allowing them to build bad habits that may not ever get corrected? And if your technique is working, he should not be able to talk, he should be busy taking ukemi. I teach people all the time by just not letting them do anything. I'll stand there and stare at them until they get it 'right'.

I'm personally of the opinion students should teach. The teacher should only present concepts and guide the students. Let them ask questions, play among themselves, come up with their own ideas, and test them. The teachers job is to drill the fundamentals into their head and be there to ask and answer questions along the way.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2006, 10:08 AM   #25
wmreed
 
wmreed's Avatar
Dojo: Columbus Aikikai
Location: Columbus, OH
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 107
United_States
Offline
Re: Fellow students "teaching" !

To be philosophical about it: Open your mind and heart to receive their energy, and direct it as you will.

My recommendation is to listen to what they're saying, it's _possible_ they have an insight you missed. When they don't, nod or shrug, and demonstrate for them what you believe to be appropriate behavior. They will get it or not. You'll only be practicing for a few minutes a night with them, in most cases, I would think.

Something else to consider, which I learned after being annoyed by these kinds of students for many years, is that some people think out loud. They are analyzing what they "think" is going on, what they "think" might work better, what they "think" sensei is looking for, what they "think" you are doing wrong, and do that most naturally by saying it aloud.

I've learned to take what I want from everyone's comments, and to ignore the rest politely.

On the rare occasion that an uke insist I do something differently (not related to their safety) I tell them that I don't think that's what sensei wants, and would prefer to continue to figure it out myself.

I can think of only one situation in which an uke, even after that, insisted I do it his way. I did, knowing he was incorrect, actually got corrected by sensei, and uke never admitted he was in error. I laughed to myself, wondering if the poor guy even understood that he was wrong.

It's not worth getting frustrated or angry over, in most cases. How can that help?


Bill

William M. Reed
Columbus, OH USA
wmreed@columbus.rr.com
"I'm not the author William Reed -- yet."
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Handmade Aikido Gifts - Handmade functional ceramic art with aikido themes



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Seminar with Students of Chiba Sensei Ron Tisdale Seminars 0 01-21-2004 10:47 AM
Poll: How important is a sense of a dojo community to you in aikido? AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 4 06-13-2002 09:48 AM
welcoming new students guest1234 General 22 01-07-2002 11:50 PM
Treatment of "difficult" students BC Teaching 42 12-12-2001 11:31 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:52 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate