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Old 04-30-2006, 10:07 PM   #1
Jory Boling
 
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Dojo: A.K.I.,Misakikai Dojo
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Katatedori Kokyunage Omote?

What does your dojo call the technique where uke grabs with the same side and nage performs a tenkan and then projects uke away and usually into some kind of forward roll with sort of an unbendable arm?

The ura version as we do it is done with the basic stepping behind the uke and doing the "cradle the baby" motion.

I realize the above descriptions are very basic and in no way capture the full essences of the waza, but if you can understand my question and have an answer, thank you!

Jory

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Old 05-01-2006, 05:34 AM   #2
asiawide
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Re: Katatedori Kokyunage Omote?

Maybe you call it 'Katatedori Kokyunage Ura(or Tenkan)' Even Japanese teachers use slightly different terms w.r.t. techniques. Some stick to 'Omote/Ura' and others to 'Irimi/Tenkan'

The latter one is generally called

Sokumen Irimi-Nage (Side Entering Throw)

http://aikidoheyrieux.free.fr/techni...irimi_nage.jpg

Some people practice it as a warm-up excercise.

Jaemin
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Old 05-01-2006, 06:05 AM   #3
Jory Boling
 
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Re: Katatedori Kokyunage Omote?

thanks. and even the picture in your link has a parenthetical reference to it as a kokyunage. we don't use it, but i prefer sokumen irimi-nage. thanks for your time!
Jory

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Old 05-01-2006, 07:22 AM   #4
Janet Rosen
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Re: Katatedori Kokyunage Omote?

Quote:
Jory Boling wrote:
sokumen irimi-nage.
and in some places it is called sayunage.

Janet Rosen
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Old 05-02-2006, 08:23 AM   #5
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Re: Katatedori Kokyunage Omote?

Hummm... I just came across this subject when I got my Aikido3D CD.

Quote:
Sokumen Irimi-Nage (Side Entering Throw)

http://aikidoheyrieux.free.fr/techn..._irimi_nage.jpg

Some people practice it as a warm-up excercise.
In 'Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere' (ADS) by Westbrook and O. Ratti, the picture in the quote above is labeled "Projection No. 2 (Irimi Nage)"

Where as, in Aikido3D (Donovan Waite Sensei), Irimi nage looks like O. Ratti's Kokyu nage!

Hummm I'm more confused now about the waza terminologies. There are also some differences also b/w the above to reference to which is sumi-otoshi, which is udekime-nage, which is Kokyu-nage.

O. Ratti's ADS Donovan Waite's Aikido 3D
--------------------- ---------------------------------------
Kokyu nage = Irimi Nage
Sumi Otoshi = Udekime-nage
?? Kokyu nage
?? Sumi Otoshi

Am I right or I'm just intangling my self b/w too many refrences, graphical representation. I was under the impression that they're both of NY Aikikai.
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Old 05-02-2006, 01:42 PM   #6
Suwariwazaman
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Thumbs down Re: Katatedori Kokyunage Omote?

I like the picture. It is really good. HEHEHEHEEEE! I like how uke looks like they are reacting. Cartoons are cool! Say when you are entering like that is it iriminage or Soku-iriminage omete? I mean I understand Katatedori, but Kokyu (wrist turn?) Yeh. No. Do Ihave it close!!!! and how is that done from Suwariwaza exactly, No you Shiko into it? Just a question ?

Last edited by Suwariwazaman : 05-02-2006 at 01:45 PM.
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Old 05-02-2006, 02:14 PM   #7
aikidoc
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Re: Katatedori Kokyunage Omote?

I distinguish the two by how I move my body. The kokyu-nage redirects the energy in a more circular fashion and back into the uke. A sokomen irminage requires a more direct movement of my body into the uke to unbalance them and requires an entering motion. It is a lot more aggressive a technique than the kokyu-nage. In other words, I enter to the side to throw.
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Old 05-02-2006, 05:32 PM   #8
giriasis
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Re: Katatedori Kokyunage Omote?

Quote:
Maumote Chami wrote:
Hummm... I just came across this subject when I got my Aikido3D CD.



In 'Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere' (ADS) by Westbrook and O. Ratti, the picture in the quote above is labeled "Projection No. 2 (Irimi Nage)"

Where as, in Aikido3D (Donovan Waite Sensei), Irimi nage looks like O. Ratti's Kokyu nage!

Hummm I'm more confused now about the waza terminologies. There are also some differences also b/w the above to reference to which is sumi-otoshi, which is udekime-nage, which is Kokyu-nage.

O. Ratti's ADS Donovan Waite's Aikido 3D
--------------------- ---------------------------------------
Kokyu nage = Irimi Nage
Sumi Otoshi = Udekime-nage
?? Kokyu nage
?? Sumi Otoshi

Am I right or I'm just intangling my self b/w too many refrences, graphical representation. I was under the impression that they're both of NY Aikikai.
O. Ratti's ADS = Ki Society influence (terminology)
Waite A3D = Aikikai terminology.

So, where ADS says Kokyunage A3D will say Iriminage.

I'm not too certain about udekime nage being sumiotoshi. Although there is Hijikiotosi which in my interpretation is a reverse udekime nage.

Anne Marie Giri
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Old 05-04-2006, 02:56 AM   #9
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Re: Katatedori Kokyunage Omote?

Thank u Anne for the clarification!

I wonder if there's anybody seen a cross reference chart/table of terminoligies used among styles. I know there's a cross reference here at the AikiWeb AikiWiki (http://www.aikiweb.com/wiki/reference), but I keep reading a lot of techniques names here and there.

I think it would b a nice project to cross all styles techniques in a big table with some simple graphical dipictions or/and with some highlight on how each style does it.
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Old 05-13-2006, 06:46 AM   #10
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Re: Katatedori Kokyunage Omote?

Earlier this week we practiced a Morotetori Iriminage. Dont mean to steal the thread but my question is: Can you apply the same waza with Katatetori as you do with Morotetori? Thanks
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Old 05-13-2006, 05:35 PM   #11
giriasis
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Re: Katatedori Kokyunage Omote?

Quote:
Maumote Chami wrote:
Thank u Anne for the clarification!

I wonder if there's anybody seen a cross reference chart/table of terminoligies used among styles. I know there's a cross reference here at the AikiWeb AikiWiki (http://www.aikiweb.com/wiki/reference), but I keep reading a lot of techniques names here and there.

I think it would b a nice project to cross all styles techniques in a big table with some simple graphical dipictions or/and with some highlight on how each style does it.

Regarding the sumiotoshi/ ude kime terminology, the other day I was reading through ADS and saw that they included ude kime and hijikiotoshi in with sumiotoshi. I'm not certain if this is a ki society v. aikikai difference, though.

Anne Marie Giri
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Old 05-14-2006, 09:30 AM   #12
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Re: Katatedori Kokyunage Omote?

Quote:
Regarding the sumiotoshi/ ude kime terminology, the other day I was reading through ADS and saw that they included ude kime and hijikiotoshi in with sumiotoshi.
Under which Porjection # and attack # did ADS include ude kime and hijiki otoshi in with sumi otoshi?

Thanks Anne.
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Old 05-14-2006, 10:12 AM   #13
giriasis
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Re: Katatedori Kokyunage Omote?

Quote:
Maumote Chami wrote:
Under which Porjection # and attack # did ADS include ude kime and hijiki otoshi in with sumi otoshi?

Thanks Anne.
The same one that he put sumi otoshi, projection #10. He didn't identify these as such, just as all sumiotoshi. For example, under projection #10, in the hard book version on page 278-279 and 280, what is called sumiotoshi, is called hijikiotoshi. (Some people still might also call this ude kime or even sumi otoshi.) On pages 281, what the authors call sumiotoshi, we call ude kime. What we typcially call sumiotoshi is called projection #11, which the authors stated as being in the "family of sumiotoshi."

Anne Marie Giri
Women in Aikido: a place where us gals can come together and chat about aikido.
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Old 05-15-2006, 10:51 AM   #14
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Re: Katatedori Kokyunage Omote?

Hmmm ....

So so far :

ADS' kokyu nage = Aikikai's Irimi nage
ADS' Irimi nage = Aikikai's iriminage ura / sokumen iriminage / "cradle the baby" nage
ADS' sumi otoshi (proj. #10) = Aikikai's hiji ki otoshi / ude kime
ADS' proj. #11 in the "family of sumi otoshi" = Aikikai's sumi otoshi

I digged up the meaning of the following using http://www.freedict.com/onldict/jap.html:

hiji = elbow
ude = arm
kime = grain / texture (skin)!
ki =
sumi = sue me
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