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Old 04-04-2006, 06:33 AM   #1
jimmy2006
Dojo: ki-shin-tai
Location: castlederg
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Northern Ireland
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traditional training methods

Hi there Im new to aikido but have been doing kenpo karate for 3 years I feel that alot of martial artists are ignoring traditional training methods and are opting for body building techniques I was just wondering if anyone knows any of the more traditional training methods could they let me know what they are thanks
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Old 04-04-2006, 07:59 AM   #2
Dirk Hanss
 
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Dojo: Aikidoschule Trier
Location: Merzkirchen
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Germany
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Re: traditional training methods

What do you understand by "traditional training"? Two years just cleaning the dojo and locker rooms? Physical punishment? No explanation, just copy sensei, some day you might understand? I understand that you do not like modern sports education, if that means, all look like (kick-)boxing and is only tournament/competition oriented.

So I guess, if you look around, you will find many dojo - aikido and other arts - which are more traditional. Development of strength however is part of most martial arts, unless it is just dancing - sorry, dancing needs strength and firmness, too.

Best wishes for your search


Dirk
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Old 04-04-2006, 09:50 AM   #3
Ben Eaton
Dojo: Loughborough Uni
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Re: traditional training methods

I know one guy who does karate, and remember him boasting that at the beginning of class they do 200 press-ups. Upon asking me how many we did, I shocked him by answering "none".

It may be specific to the art you do, as I understand it karate requires muscular strength, and so I suppose it would make perfect sense to train your muscules and integrate certain body-building techniques into your training.
However in other arts, such as aikido, the focus is not solely on how strong you are, rather the opposite as most of the techniques (if not all) require you to forget about strength and just relax. We haven't done any kind of bodybuilding style practice in our dojo (unless bokken/jo suburi count ), so I'd take Dirk's advice, check out different dojos and different arts until you find one more suited to your aims and your sense of "traditional" practice.
Good luck, I hope you find what you're looking for!
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Old 04-04-2006, 11:19 AM   #4
jonreading
 
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Dojo: Aikido South (formerly Emory Aikikai)
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Re: traditional training methods

I have also seen a greater number of muscle building incorporated into training techniques, especially in the competitive styles. The converse of that phenomenon is that aikido dojo seem to be moving away from physical fitness as class time is compressed to meet today's demanding schedule; don't expect too much class time for exercise because you may not find it. I usually recommend military-like exercises (sit ups, push ups, running, etc.), yoga helps too for streching. Active ukemi is a great exercise when done propoerly and Suburi with heavy weapons is also good exercise. In any case, good physical health should always be promoted and practiced even if you are not in class.
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Old 04-04-2006, 11:41 AM   #5
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: traditional training methods

I agree with Jon. In our culture and society time is very limited. In most aikido dojo I think it is appropriate to spend time doing aikido, not exercises, that is something that you can (and should) do on your own time.

That said, I believe it to be very important to train hard and to be in the best physical shape that you can be if you want to consider yourself a well rounded martial artist.

Even in BJJ, we spend most of our time on technique, not on physical conditioning, as time is valuable.
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Old 04-04-2006, 11:42 AM   #6
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: traditional training methods

oh yea...Jon, I will be in altlanta 30 Apr through 4 May. Hope I can get by and train with you!
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Old 04-04-2006, 03:08 PM   #7
Michael O'Brien
Dojo: Nashville Aikikai
Location: Nashville, Tn
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Re: traditional training methods

Jimmy,
I have never seen an Aikido dojo that opted for/encouraged bodybuilding type techniques as part of their training.

That being said, depending on your personal goals with your fitness training though if weight (bodybuilding) training can help you achieve those goals in a more efficent manner why not use them?

Tradition is great and definitely has its place, but if I wanted to get from New York to California, even if I was a "cowboy" I would opt to take a plane as opposed to the traditional method of riding a horse across the US.

Harmony does not mean that there are no conflicts,
for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
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Old 04-05-2006, 05:34 PM   #8
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Re: traditional training methods

Quote:
Ben Eaton wrote:
It may be specific to the art you do, as I understand it karate requires muscular strength, and so I suppose it would make perfect sense to train your muscules and integrate certain body-building techniques into your training.
However in other arts, such as aikido, the focus is not solely on how strong you are, rather the opposite as most of the techniques (if not all) require you to forget about strength and just relax.
I'd be the first to disagree with that statement. I'd say that all high level practionners in any art had a specific training regimine (created through trial and error) which they used to develop the "weird" strength (kokyu/ki/qi whatever you want to call it) in the body.

In most japanese based stuff It'd most likely be in the bokken furi, long weapon training, Shiko (sumo ceremonial stamping), etc. Hell, there's some people in the JSDF that got it from juukendo (bayonette training) back in the day ^^;

People focusing on just building the muscle are simply missing the point.
People that swing the oppoisite way, and don't build the body, focusing more on technique are also missing the point I think.

Btw, pressups done correctly will buildup this kind of strength as well. The point is to bring awareness to the connections/joints in the body and unify them so they move as one whole. Better to do 10 slow ones over the course of 5 minutes, than pump out 200 crappy ones

Here's some food for thought though.
Sagawa of Daitoryu encouraged his indoor student Kimura to do 1000 - 10,000 Shiko a day.
He himself worked with a metal spear wearing metal geta, probably weighing a total of 30lb+ all told. Did about 1000 thrusts a day, not to mention other exercises he custom designed to train the connections.
Which means the meat of the training is in the solo practice?
Annnd, the technique training in class is simply an opportunity to polish up that skill built up from daily training.

Last edited by Upyu : 04-05-2006 at 05:39 PM.
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Old 04-05-2006, 07:09 PM   #9
Fred Little
Dojo: NJIT Budokai
Location: State Line NJ/NY
Join Date: Apr 2001
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Re: traditional training methods

Quote:
Michael O'Brien wrote:
Jimmy,
I have never seen an Aikido dojo that opted for/encouraged bodybuilding type techniques as part of their training.

That being said, depending on your personal goals with your fitness training though if weight (bodybuilding) training can help you achieve those goals in a more efficent manner why not use them?
Michael,

How about a university club? It just so happnes that the mat area and the weight machines are all on the same floor at NJIT.

So a few of us started coming in an hour early to do some basic conditioning, which works out to roughly one-third work with weights, one-third crunches, and one-third aerobic judo drills.

Then we have a couple of hours of regular aikido practice.

Best,

FL

Last edited by Fred Little : 04-05-2006 at 07:13 PM.
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Old 04-05-2006, 09:02 PM   #10
Michael O'Brien
Dojo: Nashville Aikikai
Location: Nashville, Tn
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 288
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Re: traditional training methods

Quote:
Fred Little wrote:
Michael,
How about a university club? It just so happnes that the mat area and the weight machines are all on the same floor at NJIT.

So a few of us started coming in an hour early to do some basic conditioning, which works out to roughly one-third work with weights, one-third crunches, and one-third aerobic judo drills.

Then we have a couple of hours of regular aikido practice.

Best,

FL
Jimmy,
Never said it didn't exist, just that I had never seen it. LOL

I can see in a university setting where it would be more feasable.

Again, though if it is just a few of you coming in to do it before class by choice it is not done as part of the "Aikido" training per say.

Harmony does not mean that there are no conflicts,
for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
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Old 04-06-2006, 06:35 AM   #11
Ben Eaton
Dojo: Loughborough Uni
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 27
United Kingdom
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Re: traditional training methods

Sorry Robert, I might not have explained that properly.
What I meant is that from what has been told to me by my sensei's, most of the time you're aiming to get away from a strength-oriented mentality, but of course this kind of training would have its place in any kind of art, just certain ones may have a different focus on it than others.
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Old 04-06-2006, 12:41 PM   #12
Fred Little
Dojo: NJIT Budokai
Location: State Line NJ/NY
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 610
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Re: traditional training methods

Quote:
Michael O'Brien wrote:
Jimmy,
Never said it didn't exist, just that I had never seen it. LOL

I can see in a university setting where it would be more feasable.

Again, though if it is just a few of you coming in to do it before class by choice it is not done as part of the "Aikido" training per say.
oooooooo, snap!

The setting is a big part of it. In a private dojo, the cost of the space is a serious constraint.

How many it is on any given night varies, but it varies from 25-100% of the participants. Turnout is considerably lighter before big exam days, because everyone in the club has been told quite clearly that I don't want any parents calling me up to fuss about their kid's grades slipping because they're more interested in aikido than they are in their classes -- even so, on those nights, the dropoff in pre-keiko conditioning is higher than the dropoff in keiko participation.

Just another data point....

Best,

FL
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Old 04-06-2006, 01:34 PM   #13
dbotari
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 96
Canada
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Re: traditional training methods

Quote:
Fred Little wrote:
one-third aerobic judo drills.
Fred,

Can you please elaborate on the types of aerobic judo drills you do? Are they all paired exercises or are there solo ones too?

Thanks,

Dan
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Old 04-06-2006, 02:45 PM   #14
Fred Little
Dojo: NJIT Budokai
Location: State Line NJ/NY
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Re: traditional training methods

Start with one olympic sized competition area:

1. jog around 2-4 times

2. halfway around hopping on the right foot

3. halfway around hopping on the left foot

4. repeat 2 and 3

5. once around slide-stepping to the right

6. once around slide-stepping to the left

7. once around jumping on both feet on either side of the mat seam

x x x x x x x x x x x x x
-------------------------------------
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x

8. don't know the name for this one, but everybody training stands, legs wide, in a line with one arm's length in between. The person on the end scrambles, on all fours, under the first person, around the far leg, under again, between the first and second person, and repeats until he gets to the end of the line, at which point he stands up. As soon as the first scrambler clears the first standing person, the next person starts.

9. Cat Rolls: everyone lines up on all fours, again with roughly one body's space between each. The person on the end goes over everyone in the line, rolling back to back, coming down on all fours, and so on to the end of the line. Again, as soon as the first catroller clears the first person, the next begins.

10. Kata-nuki -- facefall from standing, then drag yourself across the mat using only your forearms to draw your shoulders forward. The stand up, facefall, and drag yourself back.

11. Ebi-yorogi (sic) -- backfall from standing, then "shrimp" across the mat. Stand up, backfall and repeat.

12. Wheelbarrows forward and backward (two person exercise)

13. A sequence of a variety of crunches (straight, diagonal, side, bicycle), leg lifts, and push downs totalling out to somewhere between 300-500.

14. Paired Rolling. One partner stands facing the direction in which the pair will roll. The other lies on his back and grabs the standing partner's ankles, lifting his ankles so the standing partner can grab them. As the standing partner rolls forward, the lying partner stands up and rolls forward. This is like wacky Chinese Opera nonsense.

15. Paired Pushups, one partner on all fours, the other partner with shins over the kneeling partner's back

16.Sit back to back on the mat, legs spread. At the clap, turn to get a grip. First one to get a grip wins.

The drills vary every time but these are almost always part of the routine.

Then sometimes, we do sequences of these as relay races with partnered teams, which seems to make it all more aerobic. Especially as we keep changing the teams in a round-robin kind of way.

But I have to run and get some things done now so I'm ready for class in 75 minutes, so I'll stop here for now....

FL
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Old 04-07-2006, 09:03 AM   #15
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
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Re: traditional training methods

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
I'd be the first to disagree with that statement. I'd say that all high level practionners in any art had a specific training regimine (created through trial and error) which they used to develop the "weird" strength (kokyu/ki/qi whatever you want to call it) in the body.

In most japanese based stuff It'd most likely be in the bokken furi, long weapon training, Shiko (sumo ceremonial stamping), etc. Hell, there's some people in the JSDF that got it from juukendo (bayonette training) back in the day ^^;

People focusing on just building the muscle are simply missing the point.
People that swing the oppoisite way, and don't build the body, focusing more on technique are also missing the point I think.

Btw, pressups done correctly will buildup this kind of strength as well. The point is to bring awareness to the connections/joints in the body and unify them so they move as one whole. Better to do 10 slow ones over the course of 5 minutes, than pump out 200 crappy ones

Here's some food for thought though.
Sagawa of Daitoryu encouraged his indoor student Kimura to do 1000 - 10,000 Shiko a day.
He himself worked with a metal spear wearing metal geta, probably weighing a total of 30lb+ all told. Did about 1000 thrusts a day, not to mention other exercises he custom designed to train the connections.
Which means the meat of the training is in the solo practice?
Annnd, the technique training in class is simply an opportunity to polish up that skill built up from daily training.
I agree with that and the normal Aiki Taiso. Until someone has stopped their normal movement and begun shifting to hara-controlled movement, "working out" doesn't do much besides reinforce "normal movement" modes. Sure, you can do Aikido "techniques" with "normal movement", but......

Mike
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Old 04-07-2006, 01:28 PM   #16
darin
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 375
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Re: traditional training methods

Check out the YWF (Yoseikan World Federation). Their warm up is a combination of aikido, judo and karate techniques done in pairs. You basically apply certain techniques on each other that are similar to warm up movements (eg. squating, bending over, swinging your arms or doing leg raises) that you would do by yourself. Therefore you are training as you are warming up.

I am not a big fan of a traditional training method unless its been proven safe and effective.
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