The continued Evolution of Aikido

Seek to understand before being understood; worth repeating

Carsten M¡¦lering wrote: Well I'm a little perplexed.

So, Aikdio is perfect in every way? There's absolutely no room for improvement?

Erick Mead wrote: Some things are irreducibly complex. Descriptions of them, well, they are not short, anyway -- look at all the discussion on this entire forum, for example.

*No offense* So the point is? If the Lemmings are running off the cliff, it must be the right thing to do, 'cause everybody's doing it (soundsl like I'm talking to my kids)? Btw, I know of no concept so complex that I can't deduce to a single sentence or paragraph.*No offense*

David Henderson wrote: Seek to understand before being understood; worth repeating

So is that your new sig?

Btw, I've been seeking and understanding for along time now. Just trying to share( actually trying to offer a different perspective to get folks to open their minds a little). Take it or leave it. Ok by me.

Gene,

Respectfully, I wasn't addressing you. Peace to you and all your relations.

And seek to understand before trying to be understood is still worth repeating.

Fact is, he took it world wide, so obviously he wanted it to expand, so I believe that that's exactly what he wanted.

Uh, no. His son actually took it world wide, and there are quite some discussions about the differences between Ueshiba the Founder and Ueshiba the son.

Best,
Ron (Peter Goldsbury's columns touch on this quite a bit actually, highly recommended reading. But, if you are limited to one sentence statements and conclusions, you aren't likely to get very far with that particular reading assignment...difficult and highly complex topic alert.)

actually trying to offer a different perspective to get folks to open their minds a little

Uh, so you are assuming that our minds aren't already open? Just because we disagree doesn't mean our minds aren't open, or even that we haven't already even proselytized from your perspectives in earlier re-incarnations. I've been on the 'net writing about aikido since around 1997, and have personally been through many re-incarnations.

Best,
Ron (probably more than a few more coming....)

Joe McParland wrote: However, I liken the use of sport to accomplish this in aikido to the teaching of super-efficient striking in karate to teach the way of not fighting: Until you deeply understand and integrate what you are practicing, you are prone to act in a way contrary to your art's intent..

I respectfully disagree with this.

First,the terms "sports and "competition" are two different things. Sports is where Aikido actually becomes something else- a sport, which could actually become something else entirely different than Aikido.
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about competition , where Aikidoka come together fom different dojos and compete. For all practical purposes, it'd look like a "grade test". Actually, grade tests could occur at these conpetitions, as they'd have the same seriousness and respect as a formal test, as each competition would change the "record" of every competitor, for better or for worse. I believe, on the contrary, it'd cause every Aikidoka to practice more earnestly, because if Aikido is true - that the more clear your mind and calm your spirit and the more pure your technique, the more likely to win, then that should hold true in competition.

Ron Tisdale wrote: Uh, so you are assuming that our minds aren't already open? Just because we disagree doesn't mean our minds aren't open, or even that we haven't already even proselytized from your perspectives in earlier re-incarnations. I've been on the 'net writing about aikido since around 1997, and have personally been through many re-incarnations. Best, Ron (probably more than a few more coming....)

Sorry Ron, you've got the wrong guy, I'm not trying to recruit or convert anyone, but It's been my experience that if someone is against or opposed to something, their mind is "made up" or closed.

Not necessarily. Perhaps they have honestly considered the thoughts offered, and simply chosen a different path, based upon those considerations. They may even still be willing to periodically revist the discussion, because framing the arguements that brought them to their decision again can produce greater depth in their thought process and conclusions (as well as change).

By the way, the writings I mentioned earlier may be found in the columns section

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=75

And I highly recommend starting with the first of 10 articles:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12008

As I said, not easy reading, but anything worth while...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale wrote: Uh, no. His son actually took it world wide, and there are quite some discussions about the differences between Ueshiba the Founder and Ueshiba the son. Best, Ron (Peter Goldsbury's columns touch on this quite a bit actually, highly recommended reading. But, if you are limited to one sentence statements and conclusions, you aren't likely to get very far with that particular reading assignment...difficult and highly complex topic alert.)

Oh, my bad, I remember reading that Osensei went to Hawaii to "expand Aikido".
You're probably right about the "exhausting reading", I'm really suspect of folks who can't simplifiy even complex concepts. Why do you think Reader's Digest is so popular? Long , winded writings are just not necessary,imo.

Oh, my bad, I remember reading that Osensei went to Hawaii to "expand Aikido".

I think the words were "to build a golden bridge"...

Again, if you look carefully at the history, and what ACTUALLY happend, I think you'll find that aikido becoming a world wide art had MUCH more to do with the son than the father. There are points where the founder actually said "this is not MY aikido" [emphasis mine]. And that was in the Aikikai hombu dojo, run (I believe) by his son at the time. [could have been under Tohei then, not sure]

But hey, what ever floats your boat.

You're probably right about the "exhausting reading", I'm really suspect of folks who can't simplifiy even complex concepts. Why do you think Reader's Digest is so popular? Long , winded writings are just not necessary,imo.

Opinions differ, and that is a good thing.

Best,
Ron

Clarence Couch wrote: Sorry Ron, you've got the wrong guy, I'm not trying to recruit or convert anyone, but It's been my experience that if someone is against or opposed to something, their mind is "made up" or closed.

I thought you didn't agree with my tag line by Patton?

Erick Mead wrote: Not generally against howitzers, Uzis, hand grenades, M-60, aerial bombardment and a host of other possibilities of grievously unfair advantage. Not generally comfortable fighting, period. Should anyone be? Unfair advantage is the name of the game.

I know this is an exaggeration, but still, if your MA fighting system is lacking, then there's room for improvement, room to evolve.

Erick Mead wrote: Half of budo is the preparation -- of those unfair advantages. The other half is a matter of instantaneous will, not calculated effort or result.....

Well we certainly have different ideas about Budo and fighting, etc.
Readiness to see it when it happens - we call mindset, which is constantly scanning your environment and perceiving any threats and having a plan to win the confrontation( which might mean running away).
Luck is the residue of hard work.

Erick Mead wrote: The best budo seems merely a idle gesture, with all the utterly natural, unwasted will behind it of scratching an sudden itch.

I have no idea what that means, but to me Budo is the total spirit of fighting, which includes physically preparing/harmonizing your body, mind and spirit for battle. Budo is fighting without fighting, form without form, art without art. So the very doctrine of Aikido goes against Budo.

Clarence Couch wrote: *No offense* So the point is? If the Lemmings are running off the cliff, it must be the right thing to do, 'cause everybody's doing it (soundsl like I'm talking to my kids)? Btw, I know of no concept so complex that I can't deduce to a single sentence or paragraph.*No offense*

So then the conversation goes something like this.

I disgaree, your wrong.

No, I am right, you are wrong.

Nope, your wrong, I am right.

Let's just agree to disagree.

No, there are somethings that require much deeper thought and introspection that require a great deal more skillfulness than the equivilant of.

I like ice cream, ice cream is good. Chocolate is my favorite. I had Ice Cream this summer. Ice Cream makes me feel good.

The Bible certainly has alot of words in it. Peace Accord talks take days, months years.

We have whole schools and centers set up that deal with Conflict Resolution.

It seems like to me when you are presented with something you disagree wtih or is not congruent with your base argument, or someone points out an inconsistency in your logic, you simply wave the hand and say, I don't understand all that mumbo jumbo of you over intellectual types, and in one fell schwack you dismiss the whole argument.

We have even offered to carry the discourse over to Bullshido where we can keep it simple and on a more primitive level of discussion.

The fact that any of us are still dialoguing with you on here, and the fact that Jun has not interfered with the thread ought to demonstrate how open minded most of us are here.

Ron, Erick, and a few others here debate against each other from time to time if you read the threads. We don't constrain ourselves to one paradigm and are openly critical of aikido methodologies. (Read the threads on Internal Martial Arts).

Kevin Leavitt wrote: I thought you didn't agree with my tag line by Patton?

"Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack." MG George S. Patton "


I don't.....let's examine what he's saying.....so, if I don't trust people, then I can't be trusted? That's not true. So if I feel like folks will abandon me, then I'll abandon people? Not true. If I hate racism, that means I'm racist? Nope. Am I missing something here?

Gene wrote:

I have no idea what that means, but to me Budo is the total spirit of fighting, which includes physically preparing/harmonizing your body, mind and spirit for battle. Budo is fighting without fighting, form without form, art without art. So the very doctrine of Aikido goes against Budo.

Can you provide more information or basis for this statement?

The whole doctrine of Aikido goes against Budo???

What do you see as the base doctrine of aikido?

What part goes against budo?

It appears your definition of budo is fighting a physical enemy (external).

To me, that is Bujutsu.

I'll even accept a link to wikipedia as your basis if you want to simply post a link.

Ron Tisdale wrote: I think the words were "to build a golden bridge"... Again, if you look carefully at the history, and what ACTUALLY happend, I think you'll find that aikido becoming a world wide art had MUCH more to do with the son than the father. There are points where the founder actually said "this is not MY aikido" [emphasis mine]. And that was in the Aikikai hombu dojo, run (I believe) by his son at the time. [could have been under Tohei then, not sure]Opinions differ, and that is a good thing.Best,Ron

Yes , that is exactly the words that I get my whole belief and position here in this thread. Ok, Osensei saying, ' this is not my Aikido" means to me that it belongs to the world (unless he meant, This is not my Aikido, THAT is, but still keep it secret) and I believe that's what he meant by that and apparently that's how Kissomaru took it and I expect that Osensei meant for him to and even TOLD him to. Also, the fact that Osensei had several Dojos in Tokyo, instead of of a secret ONE meant that he wanted to expand Aikido.

Also I agree that it's OK to have differing opinions and the key is to still get along.

Kevin Leavitt wrote: So then the conversation goes something like this.

Ok, Kevin before we go any further, you seem to be bouncing all over the place. Why? Is that your strategy? Surround and attack? Hammer and Anvil? Divide and conquer? Why is it that you want to exert your energy to pick me apart? I thought this forum was about sharing ideas. Where's your ideas?

What basis are you using to conclude that's how a conversation goes? It takes two to argue. I don't want to argue. If you disagree with my opinion, then let's just agree to disagree and move on. You seem to want to go on until the last man's standing. Is that how it is over on BS? I don't think that's the way it is here.

Sure the Bible has alot of words, but the Bible is an epic story. A post shouldn't be. Besides, alot of the words are man's words, but look at Jesus's words, they're short and sweet. Amen.

Kevin Leavitt wrote: Can you provide more information or basis for this statement?

Tao of Jeet Kune Do; Tao Te Ching; Go Rin No Sho, et al

Kevin Leavitt wrote: The whole doctrine of Aikido goes against Budo???What do you see as the base doctrine of aikido?What part goes against budo?.

Aikido has forms and doctrine( meaning it has to be done a certain way), which goes against the Budo( the way of war,or fighting) of having no form or doctine. Any MA with a subscribed form is limited and goes agianst Budo. Right here in this forum, folks have said that their strategy( if in a fight) is to perform an Ikkyo and if that doesn't work, they'll do a Shihonage and if that doesn't work, a Sankyo, etc. Is that right?

There are a lot of very basic facts about Aikido, it's philosophy, and history that should be subject to little dispute, but in this thread they don't move any conversation forward.

If you guys have the endurance to keep this dance going, go for it.

I wonder, though whether this thread is dead.

It certainly hasn't evolved in a while.

Clarence Couch wrote: Yes , that is exactly the words that I get my whole belief and position here in this thread. Ok, Osensei saying, ' this is not my Aikido" means to me that it belongs to the world (unless he meant, This is not my Aikido, THAT is, but still keep it secret) and I believe that's what he meant by that and apparently that's how Kissomaru took it and I expect that Osensei meant for him to and even TOLD him to. Also, the fact that Osensei had several Dojos in Tokyo, instead of of a secret ONE meant that he wanted to expand Aikido.

Uh, you just re-invented a whole period of history.

If you read the accounts of that statement being made, the man was furious for what they were doing to "his" aikido.

Not that it wasn't *his* aikido, but the world's. Yikes.

I suggest you suffer through reading the things I mentioned earlier, along with the articles at www.aikidojournal.com, because your lack of information is rather telling. Just my opinion...you may of course believe anything you want, up to and including that the world is flat. But I don't think you'll get many takers.

Also I agree that it's OK to have differing opinions and the key is to still get along.

Agreed.

Best,
Ron

David Henderson wrote: There are a lot of very basic facts about Aikido, it's philosophy, and history that should be subject to little dispute, but in this thread they don't move any conversation forward.

That's because *someone* isn't as good at listening as talking. But that happens everywhere, and just about everyone has been in that position once or twice...so...

If you guys have the endurance to keep this dance going, go for it.

This is actually one of the easiest days at work I've had in over a month...so I thought I'd kill a little time. Although I may pay for that tomorrow....

I wonder, though whether this thread is dead. It certainly hasn't evolved in a while.

Good threads never die! I believe it, so it is true.

Best,
Ron

Kevin Leavitt wrote: The fact that any of us are still dialoguing with you on here, and the fact that Jun has not interfered with the thread ought to demonstrate how open minded most of us are here.

I'm not saying "eveybody has a closed mind" as you're tryin to imply. I am saying that a few that're adamantly against any change are closed minded.

AFA Jun , I know that he's watching this thread and I believe that he approves of the flow( as long as we remain civil, which I'm trying hard to do). I am noticing that the daily sayings from Osensei( on the homepage) are directly related to this thread and I'm noticing that Osensei DID try to make Aikido as perfect as possible, but the problem is it has strayed greatly from his intention.

Ron Tisdale wrote: That's because *someone* isn't as good at listening as talking. But that happens everywhere, and just about everyone has been in that position once or twice...so... This is actually one of the easiest days at work I've had in over a month...so I thought I'd kill a little time. Although I may pay for that tomorrow.... Good threads never die! I believe it, so it is true. Best, Ron

I am off work for the next two weeks so I too have a little time to kill as well.