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salim 08-11-2008 09:10 PM

The continued Evolution of Aikido
 
Arts are simply evolving or dying. This is a natural progression of evolution. It simply happens. There many methodologies of Aikido, Jujutsu, which is a testament to this fact. Several of these methods focus on pushing and pulling, with many similarities. They also focus on wrist, elbows, submissions and pins. Perhaps these methods are becoming closer together, maybe as one. Should we as Aikidoka sit back and stagnate our methodology. Or should we evolve Aikido, arming ourselves with the best knowledge possible to move Aikido to the next stage of progression? Should the Aikikai organization and it's many practitioners advocate for a different methodology of practice to test our skills? Should Aikido take on a different form? Perhaps this has already happen with some styles of Aikido to a lessor degree. Maybe it's time for evolution to move us forward.

Don 08-11-2008 09:50 PM

Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido
 
I guess I would offer up two thoughts. The first is that IF aikido chooses to respond to the popular culture, then I could see aikido bifurcating into two directions. One is an art that is more interested in the "spiritual" benefits of aikido and the other is one that "devolves" back toward its daito ryu roots and incorporates current MMA concepts, more resistive training, and is interested in becoming more of a ring fighting sport or art.

On the other hand since so few people reach a truly advanced level of aikido, and those that do tend to be old enough that they won't be seen competing in competitive martial arts, perhaps we will never know what aikido truly is capable of.

Mark Uttech 08-11-2008 10:45 PM

Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido
 
The evolution of aikido is the evolution of the art in your own life. The Founder, O Sensei, taught shomenuchi ikkyo suwari waza in every single class he taught. Where was the evolution in that? It was there.

In gassho,

Mark

Stefan Stenudd 08-12-2008 02:29 AM

Evolution?
 
Quote:

Salim Shaw wrote: (Post 213433)
Maybe it's time for evolution to move us forward.

Well, there is no guarantee that "evolution" improves an art form - only that it changes, and that it adapts to circumstance.

Circumstance in aikido is what makes people want to do it, and stay doing it. That does not necessarily have anything to do with self-defense.

Actually, aikido stands out as a budo in the way it accepts diversity and very different ways of doing it. See Osensei's direct student, whose aikido is quite different from the founder's - and from each other.

I am glad that aikido is not homogenized, because that would surely kill creativity within it, and destroy the possibility of change and development.

salim 08-12-2008 02:22 PM

Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido
 
I found these clips of a great practitioner of Aikido. Although not a high dan holder, definitely a well rounded, competent, very professional individual. Ron Dean is definitely a class act and approaches the disciplines in a non arrogant, open minded way, that I truly respect. I think it's individuals like him, that may propel the younger Aikidoka to evolve Aikido. Enjoy the below clips.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SivWAcPlzFg&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D10w1VFGZh0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7GfQdB9a8Y&NR=1

jennifer paige smith 08-12-2008 04:08 PM

Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido
 
I'm into the continued Revolution of the Art.

Best,
Jen

Hebrew Hammer 08-12-2008 08:58 PM

Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido
 
I think Salim raises and interesting point, one that has been often included in other threads, adding BJJ or Kali or Systema or similar style to the art is a natural progression here in the states...especially with the growth of MMA.

From an outsiders point of view, I am a surprised by the number dojos that offer, yoga, systema, judo, or tai chi as part of their curriculum...maybe thats a business decision...meeting the demand of the consumer or perhaps its the circular evolution of the art...getting back to its martial roots. It has been discussed in this forum repeatedly that many of the Aikido founders had years training other styles prior to beginning Aikido...someone here mentioned Aikido as a kind of finishing school, I agree with that assumption...studying Aikido solely on its own merits, the only art one has practiced may be doing the practioner a diservice. Please note that I am not inferring in any way that Aikido is or is not effective on its own. This is certainly not an altruism...just a perspective. It seems to me that there are many complimentary martial styles that enhance one's martial experience.

Charles Hill 08-13-2008 12:56 AM

Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido
 
Hi Larry,

I would be very interested in hearing which Aikido dojo offer Systema as part of their curriculum. As I understand it Mr. Vasiliev is very particular that Systema be taught on it's own, not as part of another art's curriculum.

Thanks
Charles

salim 08-13-2008 06:14 AM

Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido
 
Oops, correction. I said Ron Dean earlier in my post. It's Roy Dean, from Roy Dean Academy. I think he has a fantastic approach to the evolution ok Aikido.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SivWAcPlzFg&NR=1

phitruong 08-13-2008 08:22 AM

Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido
 
does aikido need evolving? or is it that us human need evolving? for alien folks, especially martians, please keep your hands or limbs down. :)

*sarcasm mode on*

I think I need to talk to my iaido sensei on the need of its to evolve. what with all the drawing and cutting air. we need to do some blood letting. oh wait! I did bleed a couple of times while sheathing the blade by sticking it into my hand. it definitely need evolving because I want to see some blood and guts spilling all over. we might even want to add some 9mm into the kata.

And what with the tea ceremony that takes two hours for a cup of tea. just dump the thing into a cup, put some water, shove it into a microwave, zap it for a few minutes and voila hot tea coming up. no fuss no muss.

*sarcasm mode off*

James Edwards 08-13-2008 08:58 AM

Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido
 
I agree with Sensei Stenudd. I think that the beauty of Aikido is that there are so many interpretations to it. No one else will be like O sensei, he didn't even need forms in his late years.

I think Aikido itself evolves in everyone. Just like O sensei's transition from being more rough to being very soft and refined. Apparently my sensei and his sensei also underwent that transition although they still focus on the martial aspect.

Right now there are so many interpretations of the art. There are people doing it very softly and even dance-like to being very martial, rougher and with more use of atemi. There are people who prefer more circular motion, there are those who like more linear motions. You get teachers who also teach iaido and zazen or teachers who don't even use weapons and integrate shinto practices.

And they're all fine. They create an art that suit themselves, their own bodies, minds and intentions.

As Chiba sensei said:
"You are not going to perfect anybody else's art but your own. One comes to understand that there is no comparison between one's art and another's, just as the value of each individual life is beyond comparison."

Hebrew Hammer 08-13-2008 09:38 PM

Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido
 
Quote:

Charles Hill wrote: (Post 213517)
Hi Larry,

I would be very interested in hearing which Aikido dojo offer Systema as part of their curriculum. As I understand it Mr. Vasiliev is very particular that Systema be taught on it's own, not as part of another art's curriculum.

Thanks
Charles

Not sure who Larry is :D but I think you were directing the question to me...

Maybe 'curriculum' was the wrong word to use here but the arts are offered at these dojos.

There are a couple of local San Diego dojos one Aikido, actually the above mentioned Roy Dean used to offer BJJ classes here as well.

http://sandiegoaikido.com/

and one Aiki Jujitsu

http://www.dojoofthefourwinds.com/about.html

Not sure if Mr Vasiliev has much say as to where his arts are offered as there might not be a formal association of Systema and it might be hard to keep the Genie back in the bottle once you let her out.

Charles Hill 08-13-2008 11:52 PM

Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido
 
Sorry Kevin,

I have no idea where "Larry" came from! I don't know about the San Diego dojo, but I do know that the 4 winds dojo offers Systema as a separate class. Mr. Vasiliev has a much tighter control now as his instructor certifications have an expiration date on them. (at least that is what I have heard)

Again sorry Kevin. (no chance you'll change your name? No?:))
Charles

salim 08-14-2008 07:23 AM

Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido
 
Quote:

Kevin Hagens wrote: (Post 213600)
Not sure who Larry is :D but I think you were directing the question to me...

Maybe 'curriculum' was the wrong word to use here but the arts are offered at these dojos.

There are a couple of local San Diego dojos one Aikido, actually the above mentioned Roy Dean used to offer BJJ classes here as well.

http://sandiegoaikido.com/

and one Aiki Jujitsu

http://www.dojoofthefourwinds.com/about.html

Not sure if Mr Vasiliev has much say as to where his arts are offered as there might not be a formal association of Systema and it might be hard to keep the Genie back in the bottle once you let her out.

Kevin,

Here's a great video clip that demonstrates and explains tactile sensitivity, which is something that is not often taught in most Aikido dojos today. This is part of the continued evolution of Aikido, that may be the next step for the younger open minded Aikidoka.

I hope you enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D10w1VFGZh0

Hebrew Hammer 08-14-2008 09:10 PM

Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido
 
Quote:

Salim Shaw wrote: (Post 213616)
Kevin,

Here's a great video clip that demonstrates and explains tactile sensitivity,...

What exactly do you mean by Tactile Sensitivity?

Good Vids by Roy Dean, he is certainly someone to keep an eye on...BJJ/Judo are great compliments to aikido, especially in one on one engagements or where the Aikidoka is struggling with a much larger/stronger foe. They can be applied in a harmonious manner that falls in line with Aikido principles.

NagaBaba 08-15-2008 01:35 PM

Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido
 
Quote:

Salim Shaw wrote: (Post 213433)
Arts are simply evolving or dying.

I think you completely misunderstood the goal of aikido; have you ever read Peter Goldsbury articles in Columns forum?
Aikido has nothing to do with bjj, MMA or UFC :D Only very superficial observers would want to transplant the methodology of sports into aikido practice. In the same way - only very beginner and inexperienced aikidoka would want to mix elements of judo, bjj, MT..etc with aikido.

You may like it or no, but Founder meant aikido as misogi, and aikido techniques are tools to achieve this goal. What systema or bjj have to do with misogi? - nothing at all. These arts have simply different goals, so in reality their techniques will develop bad conditioning in the body and mind of aikidoka. Not for nothing Founder got very angry when his uchideshi used judo techniques instead aikido techniques during a class.

One must have very deep knowledge of human nature and did tons of ikkyo when we talk about modification of tools that transform body and mind. We are not here on the level of building speed of entry for a technique, or power of throw. These proprieties are only byproducts of internal transformation, not primary goals. Of course, you can limit your aikido practice to improve its physical elements only, but then you can’t use word of ‘evolution’ – it will be simply pretentious LOL.

salim 08-15-2008 07:47 PM

Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 213686)
I think you completely misunderstood the goal of aikido; have you ever read Peter Goldsbury articles in Columns forum?
Aikido has nothing to do with bjj, MMA or UFC :D Only very superficial observers would want to transplant the methodology of sports into aikido practice. In the same way - only very beginner and inexperienced aikidoka would want to mix elements of judo, bjj, MT..etc with aikido.

You may like it or no, but Founder meant aikido as misogi, and aikido techniques are tools to achieve this goal. What systema or bjj have to do with misogi? - nothing at all. These arts have simply different goals, so in reality their techniques will develop bad conditioning in the body and mind of aikidoka. Not for nothing Founder got very angry when his uchideshi used judo techniques instead aikido techniques during a class.

One must have very deep knowledge of human nature and did tons of ikkyo when we talk about modification of tools that transform body and mind. We are not here on the level of building speed of entry for a technique, or power of throw. These proprieties are only byproducts of internal transformation, not primary goals. Of course, you can limit your aikido practice to improve its physical elements only, but then you can't use word of ‘evolution' -- it will be simply pretentious LOL.

Roy Dean is a dan holder, not a novice, far from a beginner. Definitely a competent, professional martial artist. The video below provides a glimpses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D10w1VFGZh0

Many of the earlier practitioners of Aikido, direct students of the Founder, such as Kenji Tomiki and Minoru Mochizuki advocated Judo and propelled the methodology of Judo with their Aikido. Below is proof of the connection of Aikido/Judo.

"There are, moreover, several interesting historical connections between Aikido and Judo. Kano witnessed a demonstration by Morihei Ueshiba in 1930 which resulted in him sending several of his top Judoka to study under the Aikido Founder. Kenji Tomiki, the creator of Tomiki-style Aikido - often referred to as "Sport Aikido" was an advanced practitioner of Judo in the 1920s and strongly influenced by Kano's theories. Tomiki later became a prominent figure in the development of prewar Aikido and a senior instructor at the Kobukan Dojo. Another fascinating historical sidelight is the fact that Admiral Isamu Takeshita, who would later become an enthusiastic student and patron of Morihei Ueshiba, arranged for top-ranking Judo instructor Yoshiaki Yamashita to visit the United States in the early 1900s where he taught jujutsu to President Theodore Roosevelt."

With all due respect. I'm not really interested in an intellectual debate to massage your ego or advocate the principles of flowing Aikido dance moves. I'm not interested in experiencing some introspective, religious, spiritual awakening from Aikido. I was merely speaking to individuals who would like to foster or evolve their Aikido to the next level of martial excellence. Those who want to arm themselves with the best knowledge possible to move Aikido to the next stage of progression. The objective is for one to discover who they are. Aikido will mean different things to different people.

rob_liberti 08-15-2008 09:06 PM

Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido
 
Quote:

Salim Shaw wrote: (Post 213713)
Roy Dean is a dan holder, not a novice, far from a beginner.

As I understand it:
1st - 3rd dan are the beginner levels.
4th - 6th dan are intermediate
7 and up are mastery levels

While Roy has respectable martial art skills in general, unless Roy is 4th dan or higher in aikido, he is by definition still a beginner at aikido.

Rob

Buck 08-15-2008 09:26 PM

Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido
 
Quote:

Salim Shaw wrote: (Post 213713)

With all due respect. I'm not really interested in an intellectual debate to massage your ego or advocate the principles of flowing Aikido dance moves. I'm not interested in experiencing some introspective, religious, spiritual awakening from Aikido. I was merely speaking to individuals who would like to foster or evolve their Aikido to the next level of martial excellence. Those who want to arm themselves with the best knowledge possible to move Aikido to the next stage of progression. The objective is for one to discover who they are. Aikido will mean different things to different people.

I am going to make some nose bleed seats comments. I have been glued to this discussion. Aikido's objective is self-victory. Aikido shouldn't mean different things to different people- I know what your saying. I would say progression is toward self-victory that results in progression to the next levels.

Demetrio Cereijo 08-16-2008 11:41 AM

Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 213686)
You may like it or no, but Founder meant aikido as misogi, and aikido techniques are tools to achieve this goal.

One must have very deep knowledge of human nature and did tons of ikkyo when we talk about modification of tools that transform body and mind. We are not here on the level of building speed of entry for a technique, or power of throw. These proprieties are only byproducts of internal transformation, not primary goals. Of course, you can limit your aikido practice to improve its physical elements only, but then you can't use word of ‘evolution' -- it will be simply pretentious LOL.

Then, if these byproducts are not present, the internal transformation is not happening, isn't it?

Quote:

Buck wrote:
Aikido's objective is self-victory.

I'm not sure about this. Is misogui really a mean to achieve self-victory?

Mark Uttech 08-16-2008 01:41 PM

Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido
 
Quote:

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: (Post 213743)
Then, if these byproducts are not present, the internal transformation is not happening, isn't it?

I'm not sure about this. Is misogui really a mean to achieve self-victory?

Misogi is rather a means to achieve victory over self, not self victory. But then, when you put that buddhist circular spin on it, they are the same thing.

In gassho,

Mark

gdandscompserv 08-16-2008 02:34 PM

Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido
 
Quote:

Rob Liberti wrote: (Post 213717)
As I understand it:
1st - 3rd dan are the beginner levels.
4th - 6th dan are intermediate
7 and up are mastery levels

While Roy has respectable martial art skills in general, unless Roy is 4th dan or higher in aikido, he is by definition still a beginner at aikido.

Rob

You of all people should know better than to equate rank with mastery.;)

Hebrew Hammer 08-16-2008 06:08 PM

Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido
 
Quote:

Salim Shaw wrote: (Post 213713)
With all due respect. I'm not really interested in an intellectual debate to massage your ego or advocate the principles of flowing Aikido dance moves. I'm not interested in experiencing some introspective, religious, spiritual awakening from Aikido. I was merely speaking to individuals who would like to foster or evolve their Aikido to the next level of martial excellence. Those who want to arm themselves with the best knowledge possible to move Aikido to the next stage of progression. The objective is for one to discover who they are. Aikido will mean different things to different people.

Why not? How can the art progress without introspection? Certaiunly those who want to arm themselves with the best possible knowledge will go to any lengths, to include spiritual, introspective, circumspective, and intellectual debate....which is clearly what is going on here. Or are you just seeking validation for your perspectives? Which I might add are not without merit.

salim 08-16-2008 06:43 PM

Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido
 
Quote:

Kevin Hagens wrote: (Post 213756)
Why not? How can the art progress without introspection? Certaiunly those who want to arm themselves with the best possible knowledge will go to any lengths, to include spiritual, introspective, circumspective, and intellectual debate....which is clearly what is going on here. Or are you just seeking validation for your perspectives? Which I might add are not without merit.

I'm not interested in religious experiences from Aikido, otherwise I what look for another methodology for self defense. I'm only interested in martial application and evolving my self defense abilities physically. Again, I was only speaking to those who share the same desire to evolve their Aikido, martial methodology. I'm not looking from validation from people like yourself. I'm looking for those who have a desire to expand, such as Roy Dean has done and countless others. If this web portal is only for those who advocate religion, then maybe I should find another audience.

rob_liberti 08-16-2008 08:54 PM

Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido
 
Quote:

Ricky Wood wrote: (Post 213748)
You of all people should know better than to equate rank with mastery.;)

I didn't make the rules! :)

(Of course we all get annoyed when you meet someone with a "grey belt" who must have tied it to the back bumper of their car and drove to the seminars - because after working out with them it is clear that there is no way that belt got so grey from their hard work.)

Anyway, my evolution in martial arts has gone the direction of internal martial skills to better power aikido, MMA, and weapons work. I believe that you become the mind you train. So that's something to think about when considering your personal martial evolution.

Rob


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