Hapkido

what do you all think about hapkido? there are similarities between hapkido and aikido...

Since no one else has posted ... Here's a link to an article on the possibvle relationship between the two. There are several forum topics over at AJ as well.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article...hlight=hapkido

Pat

I trained briefly in HKD, maybe 2 years of it as part of a larger TKD curriculum, many years ago. At the time I was also practicing aikido.

HKD, as I learned it, was more nearly like the more direct forms (i.e. "combat" oriented) of Japanese jujutsu or Chinese qin-na than aikido. There was emphasis on locks, takedowns requiring breakfalls rather than large, loopy ukemi, chokes, some groundwork, and an arsenal of TKD-type kicks, punches and strikes.

In retrospect, there was no resemblance to Daito-ryu in the Hapkido, certainly nothing like the curriculum as presented by mainline Daito-ryu and its "offshoots" of Kodokai, Takumakai, etc. And since DR is the progenitor of aikido, I'd expect that if Hapkido had any real relationship to Daito-ryu, it would have at least a vestigial remnant of DR "flavor" in its kata and individual techniques.

Last, but definitely not least, there is no discernable internal component to HKD, at least not the mainstream type of HKD that I trained in. If Yong Sul Choi had had any genuine relationship with Takeda Sokaku, I'd imagine that he would at least have witnessed some actual aiki and somehow try to imitate or reference it in his own art, even if he did not learn much or any of it.

My 2 cents' worth, greatly diminished by inflation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Hvb4...eature=related

Choi in action. I have a difficult time telling from this video how much connection/jin/structure Choi had. He does seem pretty stable though.

Looks just like what we used to do, right down to the "one-step sparring hoshinsool" (self-defense) kata early in the video clip.

AFAICS, Choi is using basic pain-compliance and leverage-based jujutsu-waza, although some of it is reminiscent of some of the Chinese qin-na I learned from a student of Yang Jwing-Ming around the same time I was studying hapkido. There is some simple off-balancing that Choi does, which seems to rely largely on uke's unstable center.

I met Michael Wollmershauser (who narrates the video you linked) at a HKD seminar he gave in, I think, 1997 out in central Massachusetts (Athol), where he is based. It was the same mainstream stuff I mentioned earlier, and which is demo'd in the Choi clip. He had a number of his "inside" students and those from his affiliated dojangs, and a few of us "outsiders" who were training in unaffiliated HKD and/or TKD dojangs. I noted that he watched us "outsiders" carefully to see whether we had anything worth his attention; at the same time, I watched him to see whether he was showing his "inside" students anything different -- or the same things, differently -- than he was showing the rest of us.

It was an interesting day.

don't know about you folks, but i loved them spinning kicks. like this dude, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PMhkUH8ARU, especially the head whipping looks at around 0:35 or so

i remembered a number of time i felt like my arms were being rip out of the sockets. didn't remember feeling any ki, if there was, then it must have been the result of beans.

Nicholas Hu wrote: what do you all think about hapkido? there are similarities between hapkido and aikido...

Sure, there are similarities. You may see a lot in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yZihj8Fi98

More in a minute.

David

Phi Truong wrote: don't know about you folks, but i loved them spinning kicks. like this dude, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PMhkUH8ARU, especially the head whipping looks at around 0:35 or so i remembered a number of time i felt like my arms were being rip out of the sockets. didn't remember feeling any ki, if there was, then it must have been the result of beans.

The guy who was tied to the cart is Master Hwang In Shik, who teaches in Toronto.

Here he is in another clip with Jackie Chan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHiKzj_8R7U

As with all Jackie Chan movies, this one has a lot of really funny moments. It also shows some of Master Hwang's intricate chin na style joint locks and holds. It does not reflect hapkido per se, but just shows some of what Master Hwang is capable of.

One of his students, Matthew Rogers, came to Japan in the early 90s looking for some proof of Hapkido's roots in Daito Ryu. He visited several major schools of aikido and daito ryu, interviewing the earliest masters he could find concerning Yong Sul Choi and Sokaku Takeda. I'm not sure what he ever determined. I met him when he came to the yoseikan and I helped him query Mochizuki Sensei.

Matthew had been training with Master Hwang for five years at the time and was ranked green belt but he felt thoroughly comfortable visiting Japanese dojos and training with the black belts. He already displayed what I consider "internal" power. He demonstrated a light back-hand tap to my midsection and I felt as if I'd been hit by a cannonball. He said that Master Hwang definitely had that kind of power in spades, and looking at the clips of him, you can easily believe it. Matthew said he took his brother to meet Hwang once and his brother was not terribly impressed. He treated Master Hwang a bit lightly and Master Hwang made a gesture, opening both palms up and out as if to say "What?" His thumb hit Matthew's brother in the stomach and knocked the breath out of him. The next day, he had a big black spot on his stomach where Hwang had "hit" him.

Matthew also showed me a variant wrist lock I'd never seen that almost dislocated my back when my body involuntarily snapped backward. It was much more powerful and shocking than any aikido I'd ever felt, but I really felt it must have a close relation to daito ryu.

After I knew him in Shizuoka, Matthew went on to train rather widely in daito ryu in Japan.

If you want more details about hapkido and daito ryu, I'd suggest you contact Matthew Rogers at spiritforging.com:

http://www.spiritforging.com/

I also did hapkido as part of my TKD training (~ 4 years) up through asst. Black belt. My Instructor was Grandmaster Chung, Sang Chel in Chicago. As far as internal training, we did some ChiGung like exercises, that GM Chung indicated were good for your health and improved your strength, but we did not do them every practice. The throws we practiced were more akin to judo throws, but there were some hosinsool techniques (grab defenses mostly) that were similar to aikido techniques combined with strong atemi. The application was not at all like the USAF aikido I've practiced more recently, or the DR Roppokai techniques I saw Popkin Sensei do in a recent seminar.

All that aside, HKD is a fun and practical art, and I enjoyed my practice immensely. Demonstrations had a tendancy toward the theatrical, a practice which was encouraged as part of the art by my recollection. I'd probably still be with GM Chung if I hadn't moved out west.

Pat

David Orange wrote: {deleted stuff] After I knew him in Shizuoka, Matthew went on to train rather widely in daito ryu in Japan. If you want more details about hapkido and daito ryu, I'd suggest you contact Matthew Rogers at spiritforging.com: http://www.spiritforging.com/

I think Matthew trained in a Hakuhokai-Takumakai Daito-ryu branch before Okabayashi split off from the Takumakai.

Cady Goldfield wrote: Looks just like what we used to do, right down to the "one-step sparring hoshinsool" (self-defense) kata early in the video clip. AFAICS, Choi is using basic pain-compliance and leverage-based jujutsu-waza, although some of it is reminiscent of some of the Chinese qin-na I learned from a student of Yang Jwing-Ming around the same time I was studying hapkido. There is some simple off-balancing that Choi does, which seems to rely largely on uke's unstable center. I

Right. The only thing that makes me pause is that someone whose judgment I trusted, went to a hapkido dojang in Seoul that was allegedly in the line of direct transmission from Choi. This was around 2000. The guy reported that he "couldn't budge even a tiny female student." Looking back at that conversation, it sounded like they were doing some kind of jin training. I'm no longer in touch with the guy, or I would find out more details.

I think it's worth keeping an open mind, that perhaps this stuff is there in Korea and it's just not widely taught or advertised. I know, I know, "video or it didn't happen."

There are people out there with real skill who don't like to publicize it. It's like a black swan-- just because all the swans you've seen are white, doesn't mean that black ones do not exist.

Interesting, Tim. Since there are equally secretive schools on the Japanese side, I've no problem with reserving judgement here. I'm only reporting on what I've experienced from some of the guys from within the mainline organization, and from viewing the video clip above.

Then, there's also the possibility that jin training may have found its way into that "alleged direct lineage" dojang in more recent years. But obviously we don't have enough information to go on, so everything is conjecture. Still, it's interesting to consider. Thanks for the tidbit.

Bryan White wrote: I think Matthew trained in a Hakuhokai-Takumakai Daito-ryu branch before Okabayashi split off from the Takumakai.

Brian is 100% correct. The period I trained at the Hakuhokai they were still an affiliate of the Takumakai with Okabayashi acting as one of the senior teachers there.

Okabayashi after studying with Takuma Hisa and other Takumakai teachers went on to study with the founder of Daito-ryu's son Tokimune Takeda.

This was problematic for some of the other teachers who wished to maintain the Takumakai's pure tradition. At first there were rumblings when the Takumakai decided to implement the Daitokan's kata for teaching fundamentals into the Takumakai curriculum But it was approved and implemented at that time as they were open to the process of fostering closer ties to the Daitokan tradition preserved by Tokimune. Later when Tokimune had passed away and Okabayashi wished to implement further changes in the curriculum in accordance with what he had learned from the Headmaster it seemed appropriate for him to separate rather than asking others in the association to accomodate him.

This however happened a year or two after I left Japan.

As for the seniors at the hakuhokai they seemed to believe that there were striking similarities in many techniques I showed them from hapkido as well as some clear differences.

I think that this may be a function of hapkido being a composite tradition with Daito-ryu only providing one of the influences that went into the composition of the art.

Still that there is some connection seems obvious. Most techniques found in hapkido exist in similar forms in Daito-ryu. Some things which are obvious artistic/aesthetic things rather than purely functional things are held in common between the arts. Some of those techniques held in common are techniques which not present in modern aikido.

On the other hand Daito-ryu and hapkido move in different ways (as is also true of aikido) prefer different stances and 'feel' different. There is definitely a disconnect there as well.

Not all traditions of hapkido are the same however the one I practise definitely employs internal practise. Perhaps more so that Daito-ryu. anyway, certainly as much.

Perhaps atypically, I don't necessarily equate 'aiki' with 'internal practise'. 'Aiki' is coordinating movement and intention in combination with and one's opponent's movement and intention. I think of internal practise as coordinating one's breath and a relaxed movement in such a way as to create power. One can often see 'aiki', whereas internal practise happens specifically within for a variety of purposes.

One could have an 'aiki' situation without having done any internal practise and one could do internal practise with manifesting it into aiki.

I also think "Ki" in Japanese is used much more prosaically for energy or spirit than most North Americans presume.

I've also had high ranking Daito-ryu practitioners describe which part of the hapkido techniques I am performing on them as the 'aiki' section of my technique... so I guess they must have thought hapkido had some.

Still hapkido is more direct and less subtle than Daito-ryu generally and often does prefer jujutsu techniques which damage to aiki tactics which unbalance. I never felt that this was a bad thing although I appreciate the beauty and depth of Daito-ryu.

David Orange wrote: One of his students, Matthew Rogers, came to Japan in the early 90s looking for some proof of Hapkido's roots in Daito Ryu. He visited several major schools of aikido and daito ryu, interviewing the earliest masters he could find concerning Yong Sul Choi and Sokaku Takeda. I'm not sure what he ever determined. I met him when he came to the yoseikan and I helped him query Mochizuki Sensei. Matthew had been training with Master Hwang for five years at the time and was ranked green belt but he felt thoroughly comfortable visiting Japanese dojos and training with the black belts. He already displayed what I consider "internal" power. He demonstrated a light back-hand tap to my midsection and I felt as if I'd been hit by a cannonball. He said that Master Hwang definitely had that kind of power in spades, http://www.spiritforging.com/

Although David is accurate in his description here of my teacher's capabilities i think the years have increased his estimation of my own!

After reading this. I went back and trained some of the techniques he mentioned my doing 'so well' here. To bend Shakespeare to my own designs, one 'must study deserving' when receiving such praise. And I do need to do a bit more 'study' before I'll be there.

Appreciate the kind words and bringing back the memories of those superlative sutemiwaza you and others had 'down' at the Yoseikan. I'm still chasing the right feeling for those!

Tim Fong wrote: ." There are people out there with real skill who don't like to publicize it. It's like a black swan-- just because all the swans you've seen are white, doesn't mean that black ones do not exist.

Nice article here:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=699

Are you presently based out of Tokyo?

Tim Fong wrote: It's like a black swan-- just because all the swans you've seen are white, doesn't mean that black ones do not exist.

That's coz they're all over here. It ain't the state bird emblem of Western Australia for nothing... http://www.creativespirits.info/ozwe...lackswans.html

Hi Matthew,
Thank you for the kind words.

I wish I was based in Tokyo. I'm in the San Francisco Bay Area.

What types of internal practices do you utilize in your hapkido?
Best,
Tim

Matthew Rogers wrote: Although David is accurate in his description here of my teacher's capabilities i think the years have increased his estimation of my own!

Matt, all my estimations seem to be diminishing as I get elderly. What was I saying?

Actually, it's really true. I've had taps like that only a few times in the decades I've been involved in martial arts. And those few moments have defined my idea of "internal" martial arts. Your descriptions of Master Hwang have also stuck with me. In general, the impression I got from your effectiveness was that hapkido contained a great deal of internal power that I had never met in aikido practitioners. The sense that I got was not that you were doing a "harsh" form of aikido but that your hapkido was much closer to the daito root of aikido--that this shocking, electrical cannonball effect was something more like what I could expect from a daito ryu man.

As for this thread, concerning the relationship between hapkido and aikido, I knew you must be the best living person to comment on it, having trained widely and deeply in Japan in both aikido and daito ryu. I take it you were never able to find anyone who could verify Sokaku Takeda's traveling with Yong Sul Choi?

But in any case, you have had in-depth experience in Japan with aikido and daito ryu, as well as your lengthy training in hapkido with Master Hwang.

Matthew Rogers wrote: After reading this. I went back and trained some of the techniques he mentioned my doing 'so well' here. To bend Shakespeare to my own designs, one 'must study deserving' when receiving such praise. And I do need to do a bit more 'study' before I'll be there. Appreciate the kind words and bringing back the memories of those superlative sutemiwaza you and others had 'down' at the Yoseikan. I'm still chasing the right feeling for those!

Unfortunately, I haven't done those sutemi for quite a long time, myself. When I do, they have a natural feeling for me, but there were certain ones I never got the feel for. I guess you saw that Tezuka Sensei passed away? He really had all of them. He actually helped Mochizuki Sensei develop those techniques, you know? He, Washizu, Kenmotsu and Auge.

Best to you and hope to see more of your commentary.

David

I can vouch for a strong relationship between Hapkido and Daito Ryu. Almost everything I learned when I was training in Hapkido (with Master Kim Sung Do in Sydney in the 80s) I've also seen in Daito Ryu. What I was taught as defenses against rear grabs is virtually identical to the Ushiro set from the Daito Ryu Hiden Mokuroku (as taught by Kondo and Kato).

There are additional techniques in Hapkido - most notably striking and kicking, but also techniques that appear to have been borrowed form Judo.

There is also internal training in Hapkido - although this seems to be very poorly understood by most practitioners (you could say the same for Aikido or Karate though).

Much of Hapkido that I have seen recently seems to be taught very poorly - as a sort of add-on to TKD. This can also give a negative impression, but we must not confuse the art with some poor examples or some low level exponents.

Mr Davidson's observations and criticisms seem completely on point and consistant with my experiences as well.

There is plenty of material in the systems which differ but there is a fair bit of overlap.

Phil Davison wrote: I can vouch for a strong relationship between Hapkido and Daito Ryu. Almost everything I learned when I was training in Hapkido (with Master Kim Sung Do in Sydney in the 80s) I've also seen in Daito Ryu. What I was taught as defenses against rear grabs is virtually identical to the Ushiro set from the Daito Ryu Hiden Mokuroku (as taught by Kondo and Kato).

Interestingly many techniques which are considered basic hapkido techniques are taught later in the Daito-ryu system so some with only a basic exposure to Daito-ryu may not have encountered some of the techniques held in common. Not that these techniques are actually more 'difficult' or 'advanced', exposure to them just comes later in the Daito-ryu system than in hapkido.

It is also interesting that Sokaku did not teach the fundamental kata (Hiden Mokuroku) to the members of the Takumakai. Sagawa Yukiyoshi also stated that Sokaku did not teach through kata but 'only taught practical things' or dealing with specific attacks. So it may be that Sokaku's teaching system differed with different students.

Phil Davison wrote: There are additional techniques in Hapkido - most notably striking and kicking, but also techniques that appear to have been borrowed form Judo.

The earliest students of hapkido were practitioners of other arts such as judo and various 'karate based' arts such as tang soo do. Suh Bok Sub, Choi's first student of note and partner in the first commercial hapkido school opened by Choi in Taegu in 1951, was already a black belt in judo before he began studying hapkido.

Most of the major throws of judo are indeed incorporated into judo although often modified to be applied without relying on the dogi (dobok). There is also a whole section in some styles of the art which are referred to as 'anti-judo' techniques consisting mostly of attacking the joints of a person who is reaching for 'grips' for throwing or jacket techniques attacking the joints of balance of those who taken hold of the uniform.

It seems obvious that hapkido was aware reacted to the arts which were present during its formative years, absorbing some and setting up defenses for the tactics of others.

Phil Davison wrote: There is also internal training in Hapkido - although this seems to be very poorly understood by most practitioners (you could say the same for Aikido or Karate though).

Hapkido employs the standard forms of seated meditation and 'following the breath' practise which would be familiar to anyone who practised buddhist meditation.

We also practise what we refer to as 'tanjon' (Jap-tanden) breathing where he focus on moving a consciousness of internal force from our centre below our navel to different areas such as our hands etc. Our school practises this much more gently than do some where you see the shaking of hands and what not as they go through movements designed to change the focus of our attention on the force moving through different parts of our bodies.

We also practise using this mental control to allow us to more completely relax parts of our bodies so that we can strike more effective and to 'join our breath' with specific parts of our joint manipulations. We also do specific exercises designed to test our focus such as breaking technique, breaking pieces of wood (against the grain) and other objects using minimal body movements. These minimal movements would not be effective if one was not able to relax sufficiently to drop one's weight properly. We believe that the breathwork assists greatly in allows the necessary relaxation to occur.

Hapkido may employ less of these techniques than do some Chinese arts but it certainly a part of the hapkido practise I have followed.

Phil Davison wrote: Much of Hapkido that I have seen recently seems to be taught very poorly - as a sort of add-on to TKD. This can also give a negative impression, but we must not confuse the art with some poor examples or some low level exponents.

Many of the differing interpretations of hapkido have to do with two factors 1) There are different styles or 'kwans' of hapkido and they differ in what they chose to add to the jujutsu like core of the Choi Yong-Sul based tradition. 2) There are many Taekwondo teachers who believe that adding a few jointlocks into their hoshinsul or self defense curriculum makes what they are doing hapkido and they offer belts in both arts.

The style of hapkido that I learned was a complete system with its own aesthetics, tactics and manner of doing striking which differs greatly from the taekwondo approach.

Hapkido that has this approach is not what one most easily comes in conact with here in North America, though.

David Orange wrote: In general, the impression I got from your effectiveness was that hapkido contained a great deal of internal power that I had never met in aikido practitioners. The sense that I got was not that you were doing a "harsh" form of aikido but that your hapkido was much closer to the daito root of aikido--that this shocking, electrical cannonball effect was something more like what I could expect from a daito ryu man.

I think one of the techniques I might have introduced you to was a 'fishtail' back of the hand strike to the floating ribs. There are a few things at work there. When done in response to a wrist grab one draws the opponent's grasping hand away from the body which puts the ribs under tension - so it hurts more when you hit them. One tries to fully relax that arm into a loose swing that ends in a whip-like motion. But one really does have to be loose for it to be effective and coordinate it with one's forward weight shift and the rotation of one's hip. The power is definitely not primarily arm generated.

Variations of this same technique are possible with knife hand or hammer fist but are cruder and less 'artistic'. They are also easier!

David Orange wrote: I take it you were never able to find anyone who could verify Sokaku Takeda's traveling with Yong Sul Choi?.

I did find people who confirmed that Choi Yong Sul trained with Sokaku in Korea. People like Kim Jin Pal an early student of Choi's who now heads his own 'han pul' organization. A very interesting man whose books you would be interested in I'm sure. However what he and others are confirming are the things that Master Choi reportedly told them of his training. I'm enough of a researcher to know that that doesn't make it necessarily so.

Kim told me that Master Choi studied with Master Takeda in the mountains of northern Honshu and that he kept a house there for Takeda that he would visit when he came through the area on his travels teaching. Kim/Choi made it seem that his teaching was very advanced and his relationship was very close to Sokaku.

He also told me that Choi was employed to round up draft dodgers during the seconf World War who fled to the mountains and that he was involved in very dangerous situations in connection with this activity. At the end of the second world war he was repatriated and returned to Korea but ended up living under bad conditions in the chaos of the country after the lifting of Japanese colonial rule.

He started teaching, first Suh Bok Sub and his employees at a makeshift dojang Suh created in the large brewry that Suh owned and later at a commercial school in Taegu. Later he also taught certain students privately at his home in addition to at the commercial achool. It was in this way that Kim Jin Pal learned from him.

Ueshiba Kisshomaru also confirmed that his father told him that he had participated in seminars in Hokkaido with a Korean man who later went on to found an art called 'hapkido' and shared the same Chinese characters as 'aikido.

The quote and other information can be found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hapkido

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choi_Yong_Sul

David Orange wrote: But in any case, you have had in-depth experience in Japan with aikido and daito ryu, as well as your lengthy training in hapkido with Master Hwang.

There is enough overlap in the system to strongly suggest a connection between the two arts if viewed from a pured empirical stand point.

But there are also very important things to both arts which differ, so it seems clear that there is also some sort of disconnect there as well whether than be from hapkido's syncretic nature to joining dissimilar arts together, from Sokaku's teaching of Choi having differed from his way of teaching his son Tokimune (He taught Hisa and Sagawa differently as well) or from him adding his own thoughts and work to his art over the years.

Still some of the things I value most about hapkido are not to be found in Daito-ryu and vice versa.

David Orange wrote: Unfortunately, I haven't done those sutemi for quite a long time, myself. When I do, they have a natural feeling for me, but there were certain ones I never got the feel for. Best to you and hope to see more of your commentary. David

It may seem odd for a fellow in his forties to be saying but I still hope to learn the sutemi waza properly one day!

I'm not so big on posting here and there any more. It takes up quite a bit of time and it is generally not time well spent. I only knew about this post because someone posted it at hapkidoforum.com where I have friends posting. Still it is always a pleasure hearing from you and hearing about your experiences, which were extensive when mine were just beginning.

All the best,

Matt

For those interested I thought I would post some links to different schools of hapkido

Here is hapkido as practised by one direct student of Choi's. You have to watch a bit of the video to see the hapkido part. The fellow who put this video together does as a travel logue showing all the various school he has visited in Korea. All quite interesting.
Kim Yun Sang
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl9XD...2096B3&index=0

International Hapkido Federation hapkido (a major style)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnNMC...037A51&index=8

A school of hapkido which seems to me to be trying to ‘recreate' a daito-ryu type approach. I say recreate because having seen this teacher's teacher. I don't remember his hapkido looking like this. Still some interesting stuff:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zD5C...37A51&index=14

Another one of the teacher that David posted:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmx1r...37A51&index=20

When I first started martial arts it was in TKD. When I tried to get back into martial arts it was the first thing I looked for. Finding no schools with satisfactory TKD (all replaced with ATA belt farms) I decided to stay with the korean traditions and look for Hapkido.

I tried every place in a 50 mile radius and all I ever saw was TKD mixed with a few wrist locks and the game of tag removed.

Matt,

Took me a while to get back to this thread. Thanks for the links and the explanation of some of the body development methods you have learned in hapkido.

Best,
Tim