aikido vs jiu-jitsu

David Valadez wrote: Chuck, about the study done by Mr. Greg Dossey, in 1988 (later updated in 1992). When I ran an advanced Arrest and

That's the one! Thanks.

Chuck
(who has a mind like a steel sieve)

Well whoever said "knee him in the face" while attempting a takedown has not obviosly nevere ever wretled a good wrestler.

About biting and pinching - have you ever thought about what would happen if they started biting or pinching from the top? Or eyepoking? Of course one does not expect that you pinch them from the bottom because it's a training situation. But in self-defence when you are mounted and someone is bashing your face up and adrenaline is flowing I'm 99% sure that your pinching and biting will fail.

If you are concerned with BJJ, take BJJ yes. It would be totally unrational to start figuring out some "aikido-counters" half of which would never-ever work and the other half you would train with people who do not know how to do the moves properly you would want to counter. So you'd be still in trouble with real BJJ.

A while ago Jason DeLucia posted some ancient bookscans of Aikido master showing full guard, armbar (a quite crappy one btw) etc to prove that Aikido has groundfighting too. But that is not the point. Groundfighting has evolved major leaps from the time it was practiced maybe by some Aikido masters as well. So my point remains, if you are concerned with BJJ - learn it. It's fun too. If you are not too troubled and have fun doing Aikido - then devote yourself to Aikido.

I usually teach 20 minutes of groundfighting almost every Aikido class. Simple escapes (with and without punches) and sweeps and some locks maybe. Also maintaining control after doing a throw. I think it is beneficial and necessary to have at least SOME groundfighting experience from SD perspective.

Also I have had experience in Aikido seminars with dorks who would try to drag me down (totally cluelessly) after for example iriminage and claim that "i did the technique wrong". Now I'd be glad to go and put knee on stomach on them and do an armbar.

Okay that sounded a bit arrogant I guess... I think there's nothing wrong in rationally pointing out and helping out someone with the technique but I really hated it when a guy dragged me forcefully on top of him in training situation and then started claiming and teaching how I did wrong and he could throw me (yes on top of him) at the same time being totally clueless about throwing and groundfighting.

I don't think I'd drag you on top of me either unless it was a multiple attack situation and I knew there were 2 other guys running in to hit you in the next second or two. I agree that it is stupid to train that competitively in normal practice - but I would say that if you are getting dragged down in iriminage you might want to put a little more work into that technique... My guess is that you are trying to do the clothesline thing at the end and they are grabbing your arm. Id's say, you need to fix your alignment between the point where you initially bring them down and the point where you bring them back up. At that moment (before they bounce back up), I find it helps for me to pivot so that my feet (and hips!) are pointed the same direction uke's feet (and hips) are going. If my left hand is behind their head, then at the moment (after I pivot to fix alignment) my right foot is forward and my right arm is forward (on their upper arm). I basically imagine that I'm holding a sword to their neck with my right arm. I step back with my right foot (on that fixed alignment) and leave my right arm expanding outward and forward as my left hand gathers their head a bit forward and up towards my right shoulder. Try that and see if they are still able to pull you down... It's been working for me...

Rob

Thanks for caring but that is not a problem for quite some time now

They could do this only when they changed the pace. Which is a totally pointless thing to do in seminar in cooperative practice. Which also pissed me off. Man... I so hate when some 1.-3. kyu students start teaching you at seminars and changing paces and talking about "REAL situations" because I do not have a hakama on and wearing a whitebelt and because I like to practice rather slow and softly during seminars. It's meant to be a learning-cooperative-thing for god's sake. And I came to learn from that guy who is giving the seminar therefore I want to concentrate on his approach for this few hours.

And now I'm totally aware that I got oh-so-many options there (iriminage). I could control their head with the forearm and I could move around and drag behind and I can keep a better angle so they are not able to drag and I could step in more for hipthrow or ashibarai and I could and blah blah I'm better now (a bit)

And of course I could go down with them and put some pressure with the knee on them or make an armbar and they even wouldn't know what happened to them.

sonny aberin wrote: just asking u guys, how can u defend yourself if your in a full mount of a jiu-jitsu expert? or what if he grabs u by the legs & try to put u down? ive experience sparring with a jiu-jitsu, its hard especially when he tried to take me down to the ground, doing the arm bar or the ankle lock.. how do u counter that moves?

the key is to quantify every thing standing into the ground game .when passing guard primarily treat the legs with ikyo ,when negotiating any mount address your opponent's hands ikyo to nikyo to sankyo to control your escape .theres more to it but that's a good start.

I do not se these two as comparable. I think it is an overgeneralisation and wishful thinking.

When guardpassin, most passes do not address only one leg only AND when they do it's very far from arm manipultion seen in ikkyo. Also the purpose is totally different - in ikkyo one tries to manipulate ukes body through the limb. In guardpassing one tries to pass the guard

When being on bottom of mount ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo etc are completely unusable because you are only able to use your hands for these kind of techniques. And as everyone knows in Aikido we always try to do a technique with our whole body. Which in case of being mounted is pinned between oneself and the opponent.

I have been able to use Aikido wristlocks when breaking posture from guard. But no way can it be considered "doing Aikido" or doing nikkyo, sankyo etc... It's just cranking on wrist a bit similarily as in Aikido...

I see in principle how passing the guard and acheiving the mount involves principles of ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo...but I too have found it difficult this close to really call them what I consider aikido technique. I have been able to use sankyo some, but you hips areso immobile this close in that it is hard to move and turn your center to achieve the techniques. I find this is why using other fulcrum points as is typically taught in BJJ is useful to acheiving the desired affect since the hips cannot do it for you.

This is a clip of video from a class where Jason DeLucia Sensei was demonstrating how to use aiki technique to escape from guard. Note the erect seiza posture as he pulls free, then the ikkyo to the leg to clear the guard.

http://venus.secureguards.com/~aikid...op=show&pid=91

(Scroll down that page past the forum entries to view the clip.)

I think this may be a poor escape to learn for "fighting with BJJ people."

Standing all the way up in the guard like that is very dangerous. The instant you stand up and buck your hips you are easily swept. (They grab your ankles and pull while pushing with their legs. It works very easily, and transitions them into mount on you.)

To correctly emply this sort of pass against someone with any amount of expirence requires very good center (base) and the ability to counter that sweep by grabbing their gi (or head). Once you have acheived good base you can begin to address the closed guard.

In fact, at one point in the video (about 1:40) one of the students almost accidentially sweeps the other with this technique, pehaps without even knowing of it. The optimal time for the sweep was a few seconds earlier; you can see the standing student take a few steps forward to recover his balance after moving his center too far back.

Sticking your arms in deprives you of the counter to the sweep.

I think the correct way to pass the guard here is to apply judicious "atemi" the groin until their legs open, then pass.

I agree with Chris on the vulnerability of this guard pass. It did however make me finally get off my backside (well actually in this case stay on it) and get realplayer so I could check out some of the aikidog clips, which I've been meaning to do.
Interesting, it was better than I expected. However the grappling, particularly the groundfighting, doesn't look particularly "Aikido" as opposed to BJJ. And where it does look different it looks a little vulnerable. for example the upright seiza you mentioned is a basic base to get postiion in someones guard. Delucia had his hands on ukes hips which is all good, but the difference from the standard in guard posture I'm used to seeing is he didn't have the other hand on the chest - which stops uke sitting up to strike/choke/lock.
I'm not saying this lack of "aikidoisation" is a bad thing. I've asked before why people think it's necessary to get a specifically aikido solution to groundfighting when there's a perfectly good solution that follows aiki principals all ready out there in BJJ. I think Jason maybe goes to too much trouble to try and explain BJJ type movements in aikido language and that may be one of the reasons some people find his posts confusing.
On video though he is much more clear and has peaked my interest enough to download a bunch of his stuff from the site. Hell anyone who's prepared to stand in front of a room full of large strapping policemen and say "who wants to wrestle" has something to offer.

I agreed pretty much with everything Jorgen said until this post.

Jorgen Matsi wrote: ... When guardpassin, most passes do not address only one leg only AND when they do it's very far from arm manipultion seen in ikkyo.

Ikkyou is not just a technique, it is a principle to get you to the outside of the arm, the outside being beyond the normal range of movement for the arm (ie an extended elnbow or a position where control of the lebow is possible. Now of course the leg bends differently, and trying to pass guard it's going to be a different movement, but the principle of being on the outside of only one limb instead of two... and to me the general principle of controlling the knee (if you're going straight into mount or a GnP) holds in the same way as controlling the elbow. Soooo...

Also the purpose is totally different - in ikkyo one tries to manipulate ukes body through the limb. In guardpassing one tries to pass the guard

of course you can say that the purpose of guardpassing is to pass the guard, but you pass the guard by let's see... manipulating uke's body through the limb...!

It's a bit of a niggling nitpick, because yeah, I can see what you're saying. Personally I don't think aiki in general has answers for groundfighting. Why? Well Ueshiba didn't practise it AFAIK. The historical precedents for aiki (an art designed for samurai, to allow them to draw and use their swords, or to disarm someone who was armed when you weren't especially from seiza) did not require it.

My nitpick comes from aiki in general being taught as a series of techs rather than as groups of principles. If you follow aiki principles on to the ground, you may arrive at something like BJJ. (And no, I'm not saying this has happened or is likely to happen or is desirable or anything: but sticking to your opponent, blending/merging, dropping your weight through your centre, manipulating the body through the extremities, relaxing, going with your opponent's tech until you can take control... all very general but could be JJ groundwork or aiki... no?!)

Just because your sensei trains/teaches groundwork, doesn't mean it's aiki. It means he's trained in something else! Of course, neither does that mean aiki principles can't be incorporated into groundwork, but in answer to the general question 'Does aiki have answers to groundwork?' it is somewhat facetious to say 'My teacher teaches groundwork and he's an aiki teacher therefore aiki has groundwork' when generally IT DOES NOT!

When being on bottom of mount ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo etc are completely unusable because you are only able to use your hands for these kind of techniques. And as everyone knows in Aikido we always try to do a technique with our whole body. Which in case of being mounted is pinned between oneself and the opponent. I have been able to use Aikido wristlocks when breaking posture from guard. But no way can it be considered "doing Aikido" or doing nikkyo, sankyo etc... It's just cranking on wrist a bit similarily as in Aikido...

Don't agree with this either. Working your guard is all about working your hips or working into a position whereby you can do so. Shrimping, bridging, a basic armbar from guard... try doing those without using your hips...!

I have used sankyou from guard successfully, by wriggling my ass into a position where i could put my hips into it. He tapped in less than a second, with his body structure broken backwards just like in a vertical sankyou, in fact better, because from mount he couldn't move his hips to get out of the way. Worked it a couple more times till they got wise to it, but it's perfectly possible (never rolled with a good BJJer but my teacher who's a pro-fighter has fought many... not saying it would or would work against them, but I'd be more than happy to try it! It was in a shooto class, half of which is groundwork taken from BJJ, JJJ and Graeco-Roman).

Plus, and this one's a very wee nitpick, but if the action is an aiki-like movement getting an aiki like wrist position, which is not found in many other martial arts, and you can do it because you've trained in aiki, does that mean that because you don't use your hips you are not doing aiki?! I don't think so.

Roy Dean wrote: Aikido on the Ground? In regards to kaiten nage as a defense for a double leg tackle... well, it's possible, but I've never seen it done, and if it were high percentage, then I'm sure MMA fighters would be adding it to the arsenal. Even the spinning backfist has been successfully implemented by fighters (for KO's!)... but kaiten nage as a replacement for the sprawl is something I do not forsee happening soon. But it could.

I've used it to a limited degree of success. If you jam up into your opponent's body it becomes a kind of straight-through kaiten-nage (ie no extravagant 'kaiten'). It also becomes like the standard swimming excerise for the clinch in wrestling. You have to get in deep. The main problem with it is that they're not off balance unless you've lead their shoot in further than they wanted (which is pretty much suicide!) or they're not good at shooting. Give it a go, tell us what you think.

Oh and BTW, I hope it's needless to say, when I do this I'm not aiming to remain standing, but to take the back of their head and harmonize their face with the mat, followed by taking their rear, or rolling over the top for an armbar. If you get in really deep you can sweep their lead leg with your front leg too, and if you drop it tight, you might manage to drop their face on your knee... er, sorry, harmonize your knee with their nose.

It's much lower percentage than the sprawl.

BTW 2, I wouldn't say that because MMAers don't use it it's not viable. How long did the spinning backfist take to come into MMA? And since that's been used for a long time in Muay Thai which has always had a crossover into MMA, and taekwondo which is a starting block for a lot of US martial artists, why did it take so long? Plus, how often do aikidoists practice their aiki in an MMA format, and how often do MMAers think, 'Ah, I just must take aiki to pick up their famous shoot defences!'... ? Not so common a cross over I don't think...

Bronson Diffin wrote: Well since I'm not an aikido expert I'd probably get my butt kicked. If I went against someone who has the same relative skill level in jujutsu as I have in aikido...hmm, I still have no idea And to be truthfull, that doesn't bother me in the least. Bronson

pretty much the same here, but if you could try to create a katate dori with your legs...

Yeah, I was thinking the other day...doing a successful but less than perfect kotegaeshi on uke actually leaves you open for an arm bar when uke is on their back. I think thats why its vital we bend our knees and not hunch over...although I still hunch over If the arm is in the center and the knees are bent then the arm would probably not be that vulnerable. Uke's legs would then be out of his sphere. Then there is a "nikkyo type pin" for uke's leg...Ouch!

Mitch Kuntz wrote: Yeah, I was thinking the other day...doing a successful but less than perfect kotegaeshi on uke actually leaves you open for an arm bar when uke is on their back. I think thats why its vital we bend our knees and not hunch over...although I still hunch over If the arm is in the center and the knees are bent then the arm would probably not be that vulnerable. Uke's legs would then be out of his sphere. Then there is a "nikkyo type pin" for uke's leg...Ouch!

Another option here is to use the bounce reflex to turn Uke over and pin him on his face the instant after his back hits the ground. This pretty much puts his legs out of the equation and you in full control of him from behind his head and above.

My avatar shows a version of this technique.

LC

Ahh the question has been razed again! Here is my thoughts for what they are worth.
BJJ is Awsome, Aki-jitsu is Awesome, Aikido is Awesome,,, see where I'm going? I personally feel that you have to really be well versed in the "basics" of each in order to incorporate the techniques and make them effective.
Thats why they say martial ART, Art is interpretive and based on individual knowledge.
What I am saying is simply this. Know thy enemy. That means KNOW what he knows...

remember Limited knowledge makes for easy decisions- even wrong decisions

Yeah I was thinking about that also. A Kotegaeshi done with lots of power that flips uke is not very vulnerable to an arm bar. Mine are, however...because my kotegaeshi is far from being good. The sloppy arm bar also leads to the leg lock...all good reasons to keep training!

Dont overlook the fact that if you've used kotagaeshi to put uke on his back...HE is extremely vulnerable to an arm bar himself.

Add a stamp to the face first, step over and sit straight back into the arm bar and you start to get some nice'n'nasty technique.

But don't get overly fixated on the excellent finishing hold. It is fine for competition but not recommended for any environment where there are no guarantees that you have only a single assailant.

At the same time ...a kotagaeshi that is loose enough to allow uke to flip is great for aiki demonstrations. But has anyone seen one in UFC?

I'm sure its fine in context but for a more realistic view a practical kotagaeshi would have to take uke straight to the floor with a fair degree of wrist crush to make it effective.

IMHO of course.

Cheers

D

sonny aberin wrote: just asking u guys, how can u defend yourself if your in a full mount of a jiu-jitsu expert? or what if he grabs u by the legs & try to put u down?

Fair question...what would a well-trained jujitsu person do? There's a certain amount of truth to the idea that once you're beaten, you're beaten. If you have no opening to enter through, you have no opening to enter through. I had one person try to pull me down by the legs, but he did it wrong and I nearly landed with all my weight on his chest, knee first. It's all about sensitivity and being aware. The differences in nomenclature reflect differences in emphasis, but all eventually lead to the same place: a greater awareness of the self and surroundings.

Royce Gracie was asked at a seminar "How do you get out of a choke?".
He used the analogy of getting punched in the face. "Once your hit it's to late".

The key is not to get in the choke in the first place.

If your are in a full mount by a jui-jitsu expert, it's to late. I don't think anyone on this thread, (or their instructor) can escape it using only aikido techniques.

Tim Jester wrote: Royce Gracie was asked at a seminar "How do you get out of a choke?". He used the analogy of getting punched in the face. "Once your hit it's to late". The key is not to get in the choke in the first place. If your are in a full mount by a jui-jitsu expert, it's to late. I don't think anyone on this thread, (or their instructor) can escape it using only aikido techniques.

Yes, we train to keep out of the way of chokes and to get out before the choke's on if we couldn't keep out. But don't give up just because he's got his arms on your neck; you still have a chance to get out during the moment before he sinks it in.

Wendy Rowe wrote: ...But don't give up just because he's got his arms on your neck; you still have a chance to get out during the moment before he sinks it in.

It reminds me of a story told involving a skilled samurai battling with a commoner. The samurai had the other locked up using highly skilled techniques. Just about the time the commoner was about to be choked out...he realized that his hand lay about the samurai's testes. He was able to escape. just imagine if he had submitted. We would not have a lovely anecdote to talk about.

All and all, for me, AIKI, doesn't mean to restrict myself to a predefined set of techniques (these are aiki and these are not). But to truely apply what is necessary and appropiate for that moment. It is all AIKI if applied in this manner.

Cheers,

Tim Jester wrote: Royce Gracie was asked at a seminar "How do you get out of a choke?". He used the analogy of getting punched in the face. "Once your hit it's to late". The key is not to get in the choke in the first place. If your are in a full mount by a jui-jitsu expert, it's to late. I don't think anyone on this thread, (or their instructor) can escape it using only aikido techniques.

I agree with Royce's remarks (a fairly safe stance, lol). Also, i wanted to comment on the idea of not being able to escape using "only aikido technique." Technically speaking, aikido is a wholistic approach to conflict. The ideal is a non-combative, win-win situation, but this is our goal, not always our reality. If an aikidoka has absolutely no other option than to do something "dirty" in a fight, for example to save his own life or that of another innocent person, then he/she must do what it takes to make the greater good prevail, even if that means poking someone's eye out or whatever you can think of. Aikido is derived from aikijujutsu, a form of budo that dealt with life and deat and all points in between. In practice, aikido should have the same awarenesses plus a very developed philosophy toward win-win situations. That's all it is in my opinion. That in mind, you're either in a position to be able to do something or you're not. How aware of that situation anyone is depends on their daily practice/frame-of-mind.

Matthew Gano wrote: "Technically speaking, aikido is a wholistic approach to conflict. The ideal is a non-combative, win-win situation, but this is our goal, not always our reality. If an aikidoka has absolutely no other option than to do something "dirty" in a fight, for example to save his own life or that of another innocent person, then he/she must do what it takes to make the greater good prevail, even if that means poking someone's eye out or whatever you can think of.

The old saying goes "you fight like you train". If you never train in "Dirty" techniques, eye poking, testes grabbing etc. the odds of you pulling it off in a crisis is very slim. In my opinion, if you don't cross train and you find yourself in an unfamiliar situation, you will lose.

Tim Jester wrote: The old saying goes "you fight like you train". If you never train in "Dirty" techniques, eye poking, testes grabbing etc. the odds of you pulling it off in a crisis is very slim. In my opinion, if you don't cross train and you find yourself in an unfamiliar situation, you will lose.

I agree with the essence of your post. I don't think it's necessary to train in every variety of budo in order to "fill the holes" in one's training. I think it can be very usefull though.
For me budo all comes down to two basic things to study: mind and body. I train to be aware of my whole body and mind as well as that of those around me. This requires me to think of situations such as eye-gouges, or whatever you can think of really. I have trained in other martial arts and found the schools at which I trained somewhat lacking compared to my own Aikidojo. This of course doesn't mean those arts were lacking, simply that either I missed something or those particular schools were lacking...per my limited perception of course. So in other words, if someone feels they need to cross-train they absolutely should. As it is now I feel I've found a pretty comprehensive approach, but of course that could change...I've been training for less than 8 years, a blink of an eye, really.
That said, I would argue it is not so much about what art you train in as much as how well you train which is heavily based on how well your teachers train(ed). I'll get a bit philosophical here and argue there are no styles of budo, only styles of teaching it, and from this comes the many many names we see in martial arts today.
Take care.