aikido vs jiu-jitsu

just asking u guys, how can u defend yourself if your in a full mount of a jiu-jitsu expert? or what if he grabs u by the legs & try to put u down?
ive experience sparring with a jiu-jitsu, its hard especially when he tried to take me down to the ground, doing the arm bar or the ankle lock.. how do u counter that moves?

Take jiu jutsu;-)

Seriously though...my dojo now has a jiu jutsu class once a week so a bunch of us aikido folk roll around on top of eachother. Its a totally different sphere of movement, and I don't know nearly enough to see much overlap between the arts, but knowing more about any martial art never hurts

Sonnyboy wrote: how can u defend yourself if your in a full mount of a jiu-jitsu expert?

Well since I'm not an aikido expert I'd probably get my butt kicked.

If I went against someone who has the same relative skill level in jujutsu as I have in aikido...hmm, I still have no idea And to be truthfull, that doesn't bother me in the least.

Bronson

Don't let him fight his fight - make him fight yours.

Don't let him fight his fight - make him fight yours. <-- what if his on top of u? how can u fight that? im talking about he has already take u to the ground and make a full mount or a side mount? how can u escape that?

Then you have let him fight his fight.

Bronson

Bronson wrote: Then you have let him fight his fight.

And have already lost.

If you are seriously worried - cross-train. Or just grab your dojo buddies and experiment.

Actually, seeing as I have a fair amount of BJJ experience and have about 3 months of Aikido experience I recently came across something really cool. I was grappling on the ground and was in the gaurd position and I got my dad with some sort of an Ikkyo pin. He was like, "What the hell was that!?," and I just smiled. Aikido is very dynamic indeed.

Is "ground fighting" another reason we train kokyu dosa and suwari waza in Aikido? It just occured to me reading this thread that if someone had me on the ground, I would instinctively get first on to my knees. "Duh! That's suwari waza!"

I've never had anyone try to grapple with me in a serious fashion. Brother's are good for rough-housing but nothing serious. I should think if you can avoid the pin, despite being taken to the ground, you should be able to manuver and start some suawari waza and pin their butts with ease... granted you've trained enough in it.

2 cents

John, that makes perfect sense. I agree with pretty much everyone, you should bring the opponent into a position where you feel most comfy. Not vice versa. Then you will be relaxed and techniques will flow with ease (assuming you have a fair amount of training). Still, for some reason, I feel most comfy on the ground. Aikido is really helping to me feel comfortable in every aspect of self defense, though.

I train Army Combatives once in a while with my unit. For those of you who do not know the U.S. Army is basically using BJJ as its base now. So we almost always start from the mount.

It is interesting to say the least. Not enough room, time, or interest to discuss at length....but you have to be careful not to fall into the BJJ vs. Aiki trap. I fall for it all the time.

I have discussed a little with the guy that basically founded the Army's system, which I am critical of because it assumes one opponent and you are on the ground. Not a great place for a soldier to be in since many hand2hand involve multiple opponent. I think aikido type stuff works best since it's premise is multiple opponent stay moving and active. He had a reason for doing it and it makes sense to me after discussing it with him. (won't go into it here).

You really cannot use aikido against BJJ, or for that matter anyother art....you use what works for the situation. In a "army" training situation I work within the constraints of their rules. In aikido in the constraints of their rules. It is hard to apply "technique" in any given situation and say it is aiki or BJJ or karate...whatever.

Experience matters and the more you have the better off you are.

To answer the question. IMO you avoid the mount if you want to stay alive. That is if your situation and premise is dealing with life and death fighting that may involve multiple opponents. So if you have a gun you may use that. A chair if you have that. A stick, a kick, whatever.

No one stops a fight and says "wow" great technique...is that Aikido?

John Boswell wrote: Is "ground fighting" another reason we train kokyu dosa and suwari waza in Aikido? It just occured to me reading this thread that if someone had me on the ground, I would instinctively get first on to my knees. "Duh! That's suwari waza!"

The problem is the getting on to your knees. If someone takes you down halfway and you both land on your knees, fine. You can use that. But if you are taken down all the way and land on your back or your front, you must first get to your knees. If someone is on top of you and knows what he/she's doing or is just bigger than you, getting to your knees is a non-trivial problem.

Personally, I think suwari waza does help. Getting hip power into your movements helps. Being comfortable and mobile in a situation when your on your knees helps. Just think about how mobile you were from your knees before you started aikido practice.

It's easy enough to go into a grappling practice from aikido. Start with kokyu dosa, up the resistance, look for counters, continue after the first "takedown", add in use of legs while on the ground, keep playing. I think this is great fun and only wish we did more of this.

=wl

I don't think its bad to able to apply techniques you learned from any given system in a new situation, though. Its important to be able to adapt, not just stand there and say they didn't teach me that! Strangely enough I find that BJJ works well for water fighting (yes I have trained with this) and if you happen to get taken down by a bigger guy. Obviously, you don't want to be on the ground long in a self defense situation. It isnt bad to know how to defend yourself on the ground though either. What if you get tackled onto your back by a guy with a knife? What if you can't get to your knees or feet!? Then knowing BJJ would be a huge help! Its non-realistic to assume you can keep the situation where you want it to be 100 percent of the time. In such case, it would be on your feet and alert. Thats why cross training is such a good thing

Ya know, I've heard anecdotes from people regarding ground-fighting being a good self-defense technique in situations where your attacker is likely to pin you... like a rape situation. But I know too little about any art to do more than go, "wow, neat story". *shrug*

I don't even know enough to know if aikido *has* techniques that operate from a position like that. Is there stuff that operates with uke above, and tori lying on their back?

Just curious at this point. Interesting discussion.
Heather

not that I'm aware of, which is a major criticism of aikido

<Laughs> I actually cross train in Aikido and Jui-Jitsu and remember when I was starting with the Jui-Jitsu. I was always trying to use my Aikido in the Jui-Jitsu class. What I quickly discovered was not much works when you're mounted. I did manage one nikyo but what really seemed to work best was creative atemi's. They jump right off when you bite them, or pinch the fat on their side. But then it usually pisses people off. Personally, I think Clayton hit it. Take Jui-Jitsu.

PeaceHeather wrote: Is there stuff that operates with uke above, and tori lying on their back?

Depends entirely on your dojo. Our sensei has a background in judo so he's taken that experience and mixed aikido in with it, so in our dojo yes there is.

Bronson

well first off you shouldnt think about his art much...i dont mean to sound stupid but do not fill your self up with what if his art attacks me like this or like that..stay calm and envision the fight differently thru different eyes.if you stay calm and pretend you are fighting with weapons on hand..jiujitsu practitioners will try to take you down like u said..with their head down aiming towards your feet if you stay calm you would see that technique is really unsafe for the jiu jitsu practioner but if you are ready with a worried heart your eyes wont see his technique thru these eyes....

Ok, so you're sparring with a BJJ'er and he's getting you in mount, then submitting you and you want to know how to escape? Hmm, if only there was someone nearby that is used to being in these positions and might know how to counter them. IOW, why don't you just ask the guy you're sparring with? My experience has been most MAists are happy to share their knowledge when asked.

Or are you looking for a specifically Aikido response to the takedown/mount/submission? If so then I have some bad news for you. There ain't one. Which of course isn't to say there isn't an AIKI response. If you take the concepts that gave birth to aikido and examine how they may apply when your feet aren't on the ground and you have to find completely different models for movement, and then practice that application throughly testing it against an opponant, you will find many ways to counter. This is called BJJ.

William Westdyke wrote: <Laughs> I actually cross train in Aikido and Jui-Jitsu and remember when I was starting with the Jui-Jitsu. I was always trying to use my Aikido in the Jui-Jitsu class. What I quickly discovered was not much works when you're mounted. I did manage one nikyo but what really seemed to work best was creative atemi's. They jump right off when you bite them, or pinch the fat on their side. But then it usually pisses people off. Personally, I think Clayton hit it. Take Jui-Jitsu.

I'm with you. Aikido doesn't work on the ground because we can't move on the ground. Imagine what your sensei would say if we walked by and saw you trying to apply a technique throught arm strength alone, with no body movement. It wouldn't be complimentary right? Yet that's what attempts at Aikido on the ground tend to be. You're pinned on your back or your side (for eg) so cannot move so the result is desperately trying to muscle on a nikyo or similar. Occassionally you get lucky against an unskilled opponant (there's an armbar escape that leaves uke open for a nikyo nicely), but even then it's a oncer. Once they've been caught once you won't catch them again.

No. Just like when you first walk into an Aikido dojo, the first thing you need to do is learn how to move properly, the first thing you need to do on the ground is learn how to move. How do I manuver my body when I'm on my back? Where am I trying to maneuver to? IOW what are the basic positions and how do I transition between them. Until you know that, any attempt to apply any technique from any art is futile.

It would depend on what the opponent did. If he went for a tackle, I'd try to knee him in the face. If he grabbed me, I'd go for a lock.

To defend yourself in the full mount of a juijitsu expert, keep your hands tight on your chest, and protect your kneck and collar.

When he goes for the single/double leg takedown, draw your katana and decapitate him.

Aw, but Chad, mall security gets so *huffy* whenever I do that...
Heather

Chad's my hero! Why didn't I think of that!

Chris, no slight intended, but try that against a martial arts EXPERT in any budo and you're gonna get worked. Against a Jui-jitsu expert you're in even deeper that that. Jui-jitsu usually teaches how to deal with someone "keeping their hands tight on their chest, and protecting their neck and collar" on the first day. Then they spend the next 10 years perfecting how to get by people who are countering the things that usually work.

Like I said, no offense intended.