To What Extent is Martial Effectiveness Necessary...

Maggie Schill wrote: My point is not that poor instruction is forgivable, I believe in the opposite. My point is that I've been seeing an odd trend of entitlement among students. People are so far caught into the Mcdojo mind set, that they believe they have the right to pay their money, receive a class, be rude to teachers, disrespectful to instructors, not listen to sempai, openly think poorly of their upper classmen and instructors, show little self motivation, etc etc...and then still expect that the teacher should just expel their knowledge upon the adult brats. In my opinion your money that you pay to the school is paid out of appreciation for the instruction you've received. I do not view it as a bartering: money traded for good and services. I believe you pay that money for the betterment of the school, and as a student you are obligated to maintain the upkeep of that school. I wonder sometimes if this entitlement stems back from when we were in school. The law requires you to get an education, thus you can be as big of a bastard to your public school teacher as you please, as disrespectful, non-responsive and lazy as you please, and the teacher is legally obligated to still expel knowledge to you. I don't think Aikido works this way. When you train under a high level instructor it is a privilege!

Well said. Thanks!

Russ Qureshi wrote: Janet...absolutely. Choosing the right teacher is the biggest responsibility of a new student. It is one thing that most folks coming to any learning situation aren't even aware of.....I wasn't when I started but I got lucky.

Some folks get lucky first time out.... others don't (and perhaps blame the art or themselves, when it just might have been a bad match they were too new to see as such - I always wonder if this is an unrecognized and maybe unrecognizable reason for student turnover) .I think this is why the advice to visit as many dojo as possible before decided on one is so good - there is just no way for a third party to guess as to what thing about an instructor's style or presentation will resound a chord with a newbie, on a level far different from talking about lineage or affiliation.

Alex Lawrence wrote: I find that in judo, jujitsu etc and truth be told I find that more in those arts than I do in Aikido. Harmonising and connecting with a co-operative uke is childs play. Harmonising and connecting with someone bigger than you when they're trying to flatten you is something else. That's more spiritual IMO because it equates more to the real world. Aikido is like living in a hippy commune; everyone gets on because everyone wants to get on; it's false and plastic.

Well, connecting with someone who's bigger and stronger and who's trying to flatten you can be done in aikido too, but it requires a level few people ever reach, because most people aren't even half as physically fit as a judoka or a Jiu-Jitsu practitioner.

On the other hand: I hardly know any judoka or JJ practioners who haven't at least once in their lives had a bone broken or joint dislocated, while most aikidoka seem to do just fine in that department.

Thanks for the viewpoints/insights, everybody who provided one.
It's really helped me to develop my own view, and become capable of articulating it.

I guess what I was originally concerned with was how you can claim that what you're doing is aikido if you aren't actually harmonising with someone - but instead, uke pretends as though you are.

To each their own.

Some prefer the emphasis on martial and some prefer the emphasis on art.

I believe martial comes first and the art will follow.

James

Harmonizing be implemented in many ways. I have a wide definition of what it can be. However, in all cases it requires understanding the situation at the authentic level as much as possible and responding with an appropriate response, attack or whatever.

IMO, it does not have to be fundamentally applied the same way all the time and IMO it does not mean "blending" as is typically seen alot in Aikido.

Also, in all situations, there is applications and the art. You can't have one without the other.

Their is the "Art of War" which in my opinion and what I am currently involved in at the moment is much more important than any tactical application. In fact the tactics should follow the "ART" or strategy.

the Art is very important if you ask me.

Graham Jenkins wrote: I know what you're saying, I understand it, and that's how I see it, too; i'm not an idiot. Speaking with him afterwards, he said he'd been training for quite a while, and he was either a blue, or red, belt, if memory serves...not that I know what any of the colours signify. I could tell from training with him that he wasn't such a beginner.

Out of curiousity: What is a blue or red belt?

Willi Brix wrote: Out of curiousity: What is a blue or red belt?

It is a belt that it is either blue, or red, in colour.

If you're wondering what the colour signifies - in terms of rank: I haven't the foggiest; as far as I know, no significant aikido organisations have them for grown-ups.

Graham Jenkins wrote: It is a belt that it is either blue, or red, in colour..

You don't say!

Graham Jenkins wrote: If you're wondering what the colour signifies - in terms of rank: I haven't the foggiest; as far as I know, no significant aikido organisations have them for grown-ups.

That is why I asked. I wondered what kyu they represent.

Willi Brix wrote: You don't say! That is why I asked. I wondered what kyu they represent.

Hahaha. I was tempted to describe what a belt is too - but I didn't want to take the piss too much. :-)

Aparently there's some difference of meaning depending on which organisation you look at:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1912

Some people in there say that coloured belts in aikido originated in the UK, derived from either judo, or karate - which is interesting.

edit: sorry, was too slow

Willi Brix wrote: Out of curiousity: What is a blue or red belt?

The kyu in aikido are sometimes also refered to by using the judo grading system:

5th kyu = yellow
4th kyu = orange
3th kyu = green
2th kyu = blue
1st kyu = brown
1st dan = black

And there actually are few organisations in which coloured obi are worn.

Some organisations also have a 6th kyu tested.This is the red belt. One example.
In other systems the red belt is worn by 9th or 10th dan.

Carsten

No martial art is effective to start with if you think that way. You can learn 1 million ways of self-defense and still got killed or your ass kicked in a real fight.

If you want a self-defense art to be effective, be it aikido or karate or whatsoever, there's only one thing you need: awareness.

This is the hardest to attain. The more you train, the calmer your spirit become, the more relaxed your body becomes, the more your mind is in the state of no-mind, thus the more attuned your awareness is to the moment of now in a fight. Only in that, then any movement of your opponent would result in you able to avoid relaxingly and strike him or off-balance him or whatsoever at the right moment without thinking and tensing up your muscles.

And this takes years and years and years of practice. Align your mind and body during practice. When you can do that, start going no-mind. When you attain that during practice, try to attain that state during daily life too. In the end, you will always be in a state of no-mind and absolute awareness, thus any sudden attack by anyone on the street would be easily avoided by you. I believe, this is the real part of training of every single martial art on this earth.

There's nothing superior or inferior or effective and ineffective. It's all about you going beyond your mind and become totally aware and calm and relax, after all.

Ghee Leng Ooi wrote: No martial art is effective to start with if you think that way. You can learn 1 million ways of self-defense and still got killed or your ass kicked in a real fight. If you want a self-defense art to be effective, be it aikido or karate or whatsoever, there's only one thing you need: awareness. This is the hardest to attain. The more you train, the calmer your spirit become, the more relaxed your body becomes, the more your mind is in the state of no-mind, thus the more attuned your awareness is to the moment of now in a fight. Only in that, then any movement of your opponent would result in you able to avoid relaxingly and strike him or off-balance him or whatsoever at the right moment without thinking and tensing up your muscles. And this takes years and years and years of practice. Align your mind and body during practice. When you can do that, start going no-mind. When you attain that during practice, try to attain that state during daily life too. In the end, you will always be in a state of no-mind and absolute awareness, thus any sudden attack by anyone on the street would be easily avoided by you. I believe, this is the real part of training of every single martial art on this earth. There's nothing superior or inferior or effective and ineffective. It's all about you going beyond your mind and become totally aware and calm and relax, after all.

Thank God there are allot of old school folks still around who think this way. Good Post.

Carsten Möllering wrote: edit: sorry, was too slow The kyu in aikido are sometimes also refered to by using the judo grading system: 5th kyu = yellow 4th kyu = orange 3th kyu = green 2th kyu = blue 1st kyu = brown 1st dan = black And there actually are few organisations in which coloured obi are worn. Some organisations also have a 6th kyu tested.This is the red belt. One example. In other systems the red belt is worn by 9th or 10th dan. Carsten

We the ESTA still use this traditional system of grading, both in the UK and USA. When Kenshiro Abbe Sensei introduced Aikido to the UK in 1955 the same coloured belt system of grading applied to both Judo and Aikido. In those early days " every " dojo for Aikido used this system. It was a good system, still is, I see no reason for change. Children were graded in the ``mon `` system of coloured stripes, a 5th Kyu ( yellow ) would gain 4 orange stripes before receiving a full 4th Kyu ( orange ) , this system allowed children to progress slowly and enjoy being children, there were no 6 year old dan grades.
Kenshiro Abbe Sensei being 8th dan would wear a red and white belt.
Henry Ellis
http://kenshiroabbe.blogspot.com/

James Wyatt wrote: To each their own. Some prefer the emphasis on martial and some prefer the emphasis on art. I believe martial comes first and the art will follow. James

I couldn't have stated this any better and, IMHO, simply to the point as James did. It is a beautiful thing to see someone with a total command of the techniques, moving about a flurry of attacks, with little to no hiccups in the process...

Edric Doringo wrote: I couldn't have stated this any better and, IMHO, simply to the point as James did. It is a beautiful thing to see someone with a total command of the techniques, moving about a flurry of attacks, with little to no hiccups in the process...

I generally just lurk but this is my thought exactly. Aiki can be nice and flaoty if that's what you want however, I prefer to learn the martial side and bring the art in gradually. It is good for gradings and such but I believe in the practical application a great deal. So much so that I am starting to think that our school is more of an aiki-jujutsu class before it is an ai-ki-do class

:edit to add, I meant to reply to the quoted quote...!

Graham Jenkins wrote: It is a belt that it is either blue, or red, in colour. If you're wondering what the colour signifies - in terms of rank: I haven't the foggiest; as far as I know, no significant aikido organisations have them for grown-ups.

As lots of people say, belts are only good to hold your trousers up..... However, just about any course I've been on in the past was with people who all went through a coloured belt grading system. We all get our grades stamped in the book so the colours are pretty superflouous but I think on a personal level some people, myself included, just need a visual reminder of our progress. ( I have a lovely blue belt)

Kris Moralee wrote: As lots of people say, belts are only good to hold your trousers up..... However, just about any course I've been on in the past was with people who all went through a coloured belt grading system. We all get our grades stamped in the book so the colours are pretty superflouous but I think on a personal level some people, myself included, just need a visual reminder of our progress. ( I have a lovely blue belt)

Visual remind is great for me. Most of the martial arts Ive taken have some sort of grading or level of progress. (belts)

Graham Jenkins wrote: ...to Practice Aikido? I recently went to a 'ki aikido' class, and after being told by the guy trying to apply ikkyo to me 'Feel free to go down...' because I was still standing, and he couldn't lead me down, I said 'I'll go down when you make me.'. There was a dan grade practicing with us, and she just completely dismissed me with a patronising and cutting tone, saying 'We don't like to hurt each other here.'. I thought that the point of aikido was that you should be able to apply these techniques, and that you should do so with little/no pain - certainly in the case of ikkyo, anyway? My own view is that if you can be thrown quite hard/quickly, and effectively receive, so that you aren't harmed, then you are good at aikido - i.e., you are receiving/harmonizing with a lot of energy. So too with stuff like nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo - doing them (viz., having them applied) quite 'strong' will open up and stretch your joints etc., and allow blood, antibodies, ki, what have you, to circulate. Hence, if you eschew practicing this way, then you will never be as pliable, filled with ki/energy, receptive to ki/energy, etc., as you can be. In terms of the practice of aikido as a martial art, and using it to hurt people, my own understanding is that o'sensei's conception of budo was that it is a means of preventing greater harm: it is not a means of killing others, but of protecting others; that is, you might have to restrain, or even kill somebody, for instance - but you do it for the good of society - to protect the innocent, etc. It's all well and good not wanting to hurt people, as these 'ki aikido' people seemed to really believe in, but perhaps sometimes it is necessary, and justified. What's your opinion on this?

As far as genuine Aikido is concern, Spirituality & philosophy always come first. Mental & Character Development come second. Martial effectiveness should never be the emphasis.

Aikido is philosophy in motion. It is spirituality in motion. Physical techniques are just an outward expression or manifestation of the philosophy of harmony & love. Aikido is much more a Martial Way then a Martial Art.

If you wish to learn a practically effective Fighting Art, go learn
Jujitsu, Aiki-jujitsu, or other Japanese Arts with "Jitsu" behind its name.

The Aikido beginner always begins his journey with physical techniques. It will take him at least 10 years of regular training to find it effective in actual combat. It will take him at least 20 years to discover, understand & appreciate to philosophical & spiritual aspect of Aikido.

But if you were to ask me to lay out the importance of the following components in terms of estimated percentages, I would say:

(1) Spiritual & Philosophical Development (50%)

(2) Mental & Character Development (30%)

(3) Combative Development (20%)