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Old 08-12-2010, 10:20 AM   #26
Gorgeous George
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Re: To What Extent is Martial Effectiveness Necessary...

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
Since I doubt I can do the subject justice, I would suggest you hit the non-aikido martial arts section below and go back to its initial posts by people like Mike Sigman, Dan Harden and others to better understand the direction our conversation is taking. You can also do some searches here on chinkon kishin. It and any real world benefits it may offer have been discussed before as well. It's quite the rabbit hole..
Thank you: i'll take a look.
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Old 08-12-2010, 11:02 AM   #27
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Re: To What Extent is Martial Effectiveness Necessary...

I guess it depends on what you want out of training and where you are training. There is another dojo nearby which is a lot more social and laid back (from what I hear... so this can't be said for certain) then ours is. Some people have said our dojo is harsh and mean. I personally have never thought that our dojo was harsh or that it is a hard style, but if you are used to training a certain way, I guess ours might be considered harsh. To each their own. That is why so many styles and dojo's of the same style exist.

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
~To be a good martial artist is to be good thief; if you want my knowledge, you must take it from me.
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Old 08-12-2010, 11:10 AM   #28
Ketsan
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Re: To What Extent is Martial Effectiveness Necessary...

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
Is there such a thing?
Yup. Choosing an activity for benefits it doesn't have would be an example of training for the wrong reasons. This links in with the discussion on the spirtual side of Aikido and the question of how many Aikidoka who train for the spiritual side would go to their instructor for spiritual advice. The answer by the looks of it is none.

So training in Aikido for its spiritual teachings would be pointless it would seem. You would most definately be training for the wrong reasons IMO because there are easier and more efficent ways of developing spiritually.

Again training in ki Aikido for self defence would appear to be pointless, you're again trying to learn something that isn't being taught. You would be training for the wrong reason.
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Old 08-12-2010, 11:42 AM   #29
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Re: To What Extent is Martial Effectiveness Necessary...

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Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
I think that I was a little too vague - and understandings are easy in this area.
What I meant was, given that 'ki aikido' (to my understanding) is about getting ki flowing through your body, attaining these spiritual insights into harmony and the ki of others, etc., is their training, as I experienced it, realistically an effective means to do this.
Please don't judge all dojos from Tohei's lineage on the basis of one evening at one dojo. I've been similarly disappointed as a visitor at dojos under a variety of styles/lineages.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 08-12-2010, 11:45 AM   #30
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Re: To What Extent is Martial Effectiveness Necessary...

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Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
So training in Aikido for its spiritual teachings would be pointless it would seem. You would most definately be training for the wrong reasons IMO because there are easier and more efficent ways of developing spiritually.
Actually, it IS within the martial process of trying to connect with another person, totally in the moment and under pressure, and fulfill my role as either nage or uke that I find my spiritual practice. It's not why I started aikido but it sure helps keep me training and frankly I don't find it pointless.

Janet Rosen
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Old 08-12-2010, 01:23 PM   #31
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Re: To What Extent is Martial Effectiveness Necessary...

+1

David Henderson
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Old 08-12-2010, 01:33 PM   #32
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Re: To What Extent is Martial Effectiveness Necessary...

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Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
I recently went to a 'ki aikido' class, ...
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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Please don't judge all dojos from Tohei's lineage on the basis of one evening at one dojo.
Does this Ki Aikido Dojo follow Yoshigasaki Doshu (sic!) or do they follow Tohei?

In my experience the "Ki Aikido" of Yoshigasaki is "different" from all other forms of aikido I know?

In Europe Ki Aikido means mostly the style of Yoshigasaki. But in the US Ki Aikido mostly means the line of Tohei?

Last edited by Carsten Möllering : 08-12-2010 at 01:36 PM.
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Old 08-12-2010, 02:06 PM   #33
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Re: To What Extent is Martial Effectiveness Necessary...

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
There was a point in time, as you noted, where the physicallity of the training in ki aikido was significantly different than it appears to be today. They focused on all the ki stuff, but also did hard, resistive waza. if one trains that way then I say yes, it's martially effective to a point. That's where my previous comment of your definition of "martially effective" comes into play. I really can't comment more directly on the ki aikido of today or why things changed and why they do things the way they do now.
there is also the fact that in Britain there are groups that call what they do "ki aikido" but are not associated with the KNK so it's hard to say exactly what that group is or what they do is relevant to what is being done at other schools. Not sure what I would have made of the situation if I had been in the room so can't really comment. I can imagine a different interpretation of the story than the one posted here that makes me wonder.

However, personally I like it when people resist because it's fun to see if I can flatten them without hurting them.

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Old 08-12-2010, 02:12 PM   #34
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Re: To What Extent is Martial Effectiveness Necessary...

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My own view is that if you can be thrown quite hard/quickly, and effectively receive, so that you aren't harmed, then you are good at aikido - i.e., you are receiving/harmonizing with a lot of energy.
So too with stuff like nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo - doing them (viz., having them applied) quite 'strong' will open up and stretch your joints etc., and allow blood, antibodies, ki, what have you, to circulate.
Hence, if you eschew practicing this way, then you will never be as pliable, filled with ki/energy, receptive to ki/energy, etc., as you can be.
stretching joints allows blood, antibodies, etc to circulate ?

do you have references for that ? just curious.

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Old 08-12-2010, 02:22 PM   #35
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Re: To What Extent is Martial Effectiveness Necessary...

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stretching joints allows blood, antibodies, etc to circulate ?

do you have references for that ? just curious.
Ueshiba sensei said that "The forms of aikido techniques are preparation to unlock and soften all joints of our body".

While I doubt that's what Graham was referencing, the concept is not completely unheard of.
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Old 08-12-2010, 02:38 PM   #36
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Re: To What Extent is Martial Effectiveness Necessary...

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
Ueshiba sensei said that "The forms of aikido techniques are preparation to unlock and soften all joints of our body".

While I doubt that's what Graham was referencing, the concept is not completely unheard of.


uh, not exactly the kind of reference I had in mind.

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Old 08-12-2010, 02:50 PM   #37
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Re: To What Extent is Martial Effectiveness Necessary...

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Again training in ki Aikido for self defence would appear to be pointless, you're again trying to learn something that isn't being taught. You would be training for the wrong reason.
uh ?

The prison guards and police officers that have taken classes from me see it differently.

and when they have come back with stories of real world applications of what they learned in class, all I can say is, I don't envy them their job!


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Old 08-12-2010, 02:57 PM   #38
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Re: To What Extent is Martial Effectiveness Necessary...

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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Actually, it IS within the martial process of trying to connect with another person, totally in the moment and under pressure, and fulfill my role as either nage or uke that I find my spiritual practice. It's not why I started aikido but it sure helps keep me training and frankly I don't find it pointless.
Nice reply Janet! as I was saying to someone last week, if you cut the martial root, if you lose the martial side of the art, you lose a real depth of meaning.

by the way the message out of Japan from Ki Society Hombu this year is very clear, the emphasis is back on Aikido. Glad to see they have come back around.

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Old 08-12-2010, 03:09 PM   #39
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Re: To What Extent is Martial Effectiveness Necessary...

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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Actually, it IS within the martial process of trying to connect with another person, totally in the moment and under pressure, and fulfill my role as either nage or uke that I find my spiritual practice. It's not why I started aikido but it sure helps keep me training and frankly I don't find it pointless.
Janet that is the best explanation of how and when you incorporate your own individual spiritual/religious/philosophical beliefs into Aikido that I have ever heard, read or thought of.

David

Go ahead, tread on me.
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Old 08-12-2010, 03:25 PM   #40
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Re: To What Extent is Martial Effectiveness Necessary...

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I know what you're saying, I understand it, and that's how I see it, too; i'm not an idiot.
Speaking with him afterwards, he said he'd been training for quite a while, and he was either a blue, or red, belt, if memory serves...not that I know what any of the colours signify.
I could tell from training with him that he wasn't such a beginner.
My federation only uses white and black belts. :/ But what I know of most colored belt using dojo is that blue is some where around 4th or 3rd kyu ..typically.
That's a student of maybe 2 years at the most then. I'd take it easy on them..we all develop at different rates.
If he was like a high kyu rank or a black belt rank then I'd have to agree...but low to mid kyu rank, I'd still use discretion, especially when visiting outside of my own dojo.

Last edited by RED : 08-12-2010 at 03:29 PM.

MM
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Old 08-12-2010, 07:24 PM   #41
Ketsan
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Re: To What Extent is Martial Effectiveness Necessary...

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Craig Hocker wrote: View Post
uh ?

The prison guards and police officers that have taken classes from me see it differently.

and when they have come back with stories of real world applications of what they learned in class, all I can say is, I don't envy them their job!

Well good for them. The ki Aikido guys I've trained with literally know nothing about Aikido. They can do ki tests to perfection but they couldn't take on a little old lady with a walking stick. Maybe it's different where you are.
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Old 08-12-2010, 07:25 PM   #42
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Re: To What Extent is Martial Effectiveness Necessary...

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..of course, there is always the Vulcan Death Grip as a back-up!
Did...someone just mention Star Trek ?...'cause i been waiting to post this ..
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Old 08-12-2010, 07:26 PM   #43
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Re: To What Extent is Martial Effectiveness Necessary...

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They can do ki tests to perfection but they couldn't take on a little old lady with a walking stick. .
hi Ketsan - Isn't that mutually exclusive? ... i mean if they could really do them to perfection....? wouldn't they at least have some real preceptible strength that would've made them a handful?
josh
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Old 08-12-2010, 07:29 PM   #44
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Re: To What Extent is Martial Effectiveness Necessary...

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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Actually, it IS within the martial process of trying to connect with another person, totally in the moment and under pressure, and fulfill my role as either nage or uke that I find my spiritual practice. It's not why I started aikido but it sure helps keep me training and frankly I don't find it pointless.
I find that in judo, jujitsu etc and truth be told I find that more in those arts than I do in Aikido. Harmonising and connecting with a co-operative uke is childs play. Harmonising and connecting with someone bigger than you when they're trying to flatten you is something else. That's more spiritual IMO because it equates more to the real world. Aikido is like living in a hippy commune; everyone gets on because everyone wants to get on; it's false and plastic.
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Old 08-12-2010, 07:31 PM   #45
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Re: To What Extent is Martial Effectiveness Necessary...

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Josh Philipson wrote: View Post
hi Ketsan - Isn't that mutually exclusive? ... i mean if they could really do them to perfection....? wouldn't they at least have some real preceptible strength that would've made them a handful?
josh
No. Being immovable doesn't mean you can move people.
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Old 08-12-2010, 07:37 PM   #46
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Re: To What Extent is Martial Effectiveness Necessary...

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No. Being immovable doesn't mean you can move people.
i'm not sure that's what the test are all about...
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Old 08-12-2010, 07:49 PM   #47
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Ki Society directions

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Craig Hocker wrote: View Post
by the way the message out of Japan from Ki Society Hombu this year is very clear, the emphasis is back on Aikido. Glad to see they have come back around.
Hi Craig,
Can you say a little more about this? Great news if so

best,
dan

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Old 08-12-2010, 09:22 PM   #48
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Re: To What Extent is Martial Effectiveness Necessary...

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Craig Hocker wrote: View Post
uh ?

The prison guards and police officers that have taken classes from me see it differently.

and when they have come back with stories of real world applications of what they learned in class, all I can say is, I don't envy them their job!

Why is it those who don't understand the effectiveness of Aikido, dismiss the testimonials like above?

This is a good reason why I feel Aikido's technical history should be stressed more. Aikido wazas are slightly changed from the feudal combat jujitsu that parented Aikido.

Just because Aikido isn't a toe-to-toe art that fits the needs of the sport fighting entertainment business, but instead fits the needs of LEOs and alike it is somehow not effective. If you have visited a prison or know anything of the career of a prison guard (corrections officer), the needs are specialized. A confrontation prison guards face isn't a street fight. It is a well thought out and planned engagement that requires the prison guard to employ specialize mental, psychological and physical tactics and stuff beyond that of sport's fight. Prisoners are highly dangerous and aggressive, assailants, which can be highly skilled in dangerous and aggressive behavior. You don't shake their hand after a fight, there is no such thing as any kind of sportsmanship what so ever.

If LEOs and alike supportive of Aikido's effectiveness, as they are in life and death situations, as no one is playing in those situation, then it has to be recognized properly.

I know of one LEO that is supportive of MMA, and he will tell you Aikido isn't effective; just the person. He feels the more proper tools an officer has at their disposable the better the can stay safe and handle a situation. He feels that most people train MMA to fight in the venues. He feels that in all his years of patrol he has never in a conflict went to the ground. And with in those years he has used Aikido many times to keep himself and others safe. And to quickly gain control over a situation. He feels those who don't recognize this are myopic and ignorant of street, and life and death situations to disregard Aikido's effectiveness. Here again, he is speaking to the individual's approach to Aikido.

See most people who take Aikido don't do it to fight. It is a hobby, a way of life, a recreational pursuit, as the don't wish to pursue it in the manner dictated by a career as fighters, LEOs, etc. Who don't want to suffer the physical punishment and disabilities suffered for the glory of being an MMA fighter. Aikido is open to everyone. Because of that there are a variety of occupations in the Aikido corps.They are mostly jobs that don't require a person to train mentally and physical to be prepared and effective in policing situations. As a result you will not find the vast majority of the millions of people all around the world who practice Aikido training to be effective in a sports fight or in conflicts faced by LEOs daily.

I say if a person discredits the effectiveness of Aikido as a result of testimonials by LEOs, than they really don't understand Aikido and are limited in discussing the effectiveness of Aikido.
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Old 08-12-2010, 10:10 PM   #49
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Re: To What Extent is Martial Effectiveness Necessary...

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Hmmpht....If you use your internal powers and skills, you can defeat Shihans,Hanshis, Grand Masters and MMA guys...all of who will remain nameless and disappear from the face of the earth!
Or they are very much alive, with both feet on the earth instead of their heads in the clouds, know each other's name's and have not only not dissapeared, but are in fact actively training (sometimes in the same rooms) in a method they consider superior to what they had been doing for decades in both Aikido, Datio ryu, Koryu and MMA...and are on the phone with me weekly or talking to me in person.... laughing at comments such as these.
Which of these two stories is true; Yours or mine?
Who is blowing smoke? And who is citing fact?
I appreciate your insinuating that I am dishonest. I have read it, and heard it,...face to face before. It doesn't end well for those who try it.
After all the crap thrown here...only one has turned out to be the credible person after all.
Good luck in your training.

Last edited by DH : 08-12-2010 at 10:22 PM.
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Old 08-12-2010, 10:24 PM   #50
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Re: To What Extent is Martial Effectiveness Necessary...

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However, personally I like it when people resist because it's fun to see if I can flatten them without hurting them
SWEEEEEEEEEEEEET !

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If LEOs and alike supportive of Aikido's effectiveness, as they are in life and death situations, as no one is playing in those situation, then it has to be recognized properly
Really...that is why you have overweight neophytes, old decrepit , physically challenged individuals making statements that they are martially effective, when in fact, they are going to be victims of their own delusions. This being said, the fact that the so-called sensei or shihan told them they are progressing well and to keep plugging, but, most of all keep writing that F!@king check!

I know personally, several individuals, on this site that their rank and experience are falsehoods. There are several people on this site that have trained with me as a student, peer and teacher...but, have not the integrity to state the truth. Therefore, when an individual that has the training, experience and expertise is willing to " put up or shut up" , why are they deemed insignificant?

If Aikido is to be a formidable art and a living, progressive art, why are not the opinions and experiences of those that actually live with Aikido daily affirmed?

Train well,
Train hard,
Train honestly,

Mickey
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