Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Not beyond the realm of possibility...

B,
R

Ron Tisdale wrote: Well, I spar infrequently at best (aikido randori doesn't count), and I never compete anymore. But in training, I find it best not to throw my aikido uke with osoto gari during aikido class. The 7th dan instructor tends to get slightly miffed when I do that...and if there's one person you don't want to make slightly miffed... Best, Ron

ROTFL! Yes, I would agree that the 7th degree is not one to miff.

I agree with the training, too. In Aikido, train aikido. In kali, train kali. By "train", I mean the set techniques that you are working on. Depending on participant level, jiyu waza, randori, etc can sometimes integrate many things.

Mark

George S. Ledyard wrote: I think that this attitude is pretty ironic in that O-Sensei wouldn't take you on as a student unless you already had a substantial background in at least one other art. The fact that so many Aikido folks have no real exposure to other arts is responsible for various weaknesses we see in contemporary Aikido.

Wow, do I agree with that.

The ostensible reason was to identify those with skill, but I think insistence on previous exposure was really aimed identify students with the potential to learn.

I would suggest training in Tomiki/Shodokan aikido for about three years 3 - 4 2 hour sessions per week and don't be afraid of mixing it with willing judo, karate, B.J.J. Wing Chun and so forth players to play with you'll soon get good at aikido. Tip: don't be afraid to lose you'll learn a lot by doing so!

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is Aikido on the ground.

the principles of BJJ are the same as Aikido. Using your opponents energy against them etc.

That's the way to go!

Necromancy! ... for nothing.

I think mixing is great, as long as you are sure that, that is what you want to do.

It's easy to get confused, and overloaded with "information."

While I was in Japan, I did a little Ninjutsu and a little bit of Judo, not to mention I did a few other arts when I was young.

All that training has helped me get better at what I want to do...Aikido.

what's with all the necroposting lately?

I'm just waiting for one of these new people to dredge up the "Aikido does not work at all in a fight" thread. We let it go after it crested a 1000 posts.

Keith, I have been waiting and waiting for that one to come back up as well!

Man I have got to get a life. Looks like we think alike!

I think the only time that mixing doesn't work is if you are studying a two arts and at least one of them is loaded with B.S. You get confused because it conflicts with common sense.

I suppose if you are a rote beginner and have two left martial feet in the beginning it could be somewhat of a mental overload, but I think most can handle mixing as long as the arts are alive and based on sound principals.

Keith the rule is, that none of US can dredge up that post, it MUST BE some unsuspecting person that is new here! At least that is the code of ethics I am following!

Hey Kevin,

Yeah, I'm trying to hold to that rule myself. It sure is tempting though!

Speaking of rote beginners...

A SBG certified coach/trainer moved to where I live last year and set up shop. A few of our Sambo guys started training with him when he got here last year and I started training with him as well recently. Great guy, good technique, excellent instruction. That being said, it's been interesting watching people new to MAs in general come in and have the SBG way/method be their first experience to MAs. It just seems so different from my introduction (which, now that I think about it, is going to be 10 years ago this year. Crap! I turn 29 too, this year already sucks!)

These new guys only have images of the UFC in their minds; brash, aggressive, and young. They stand in stark contrast to the people I encountered in Aikido many years ago. Aikido seems to bring the beginner in very gently; it accomodates and makes room for them. In contrast, MMA dumps people into the deep end and expects them to swim or drown. The turnover rate at the SBG is high, and there is no one there is not a 20-40 year old fit male. Their desire is purely for effectivness and efficiancy in as short of amount of time as possible. It's not better or worse...just different.

It makes me think about prior threads on Aikiweb about a "fighting system" vs. budo. Particularly: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9308

It seems to me that alot of these new, young guys want the competition/intensity of MMA/grappling but at some level under all that, in which they don't want to talk about, they still desire the discipline/focus of budo. Something to give all the training meaning in some way.

Not really going anywhere with that, just rambling...

Good rambling...no need to go anywhere in particular. Just currious...what do you think your aikido training and budo mindset bring to the SBG environment. Anything? Nothing?

Best,
Ron (much respect for you hardcore guys out there)

Keith Lee wrote: .... it's been interesting watching people new to MAs in general come in and have the SBG way/method be their first experience to MAs. It just seems so different from my introduction (which, now that I think about it, is going to be 10 years ago this year. Crap! I turn 29 too, this year already sucks!)

There are still plenty of Aikido and TMA dojo out there providing people their first "introduction" to MA; it's not like everyone is starting with MMA.

.....It seems to me that alot of these new, young guys want the competition/intensity of MMA/grappling but at some level under all that, in which they don't want to talk about, they still desire the discipline/focus of budo. Something to give all the training meaning in some way. Not really going anywhere with that, just rambling...

One thing to remember is that even training in MMA, AFAIK, getting ready to compete ramps training up to a whole other level beyond just going to class twice a week. The people you see on the UFC were pro before they were invited to compete at the UFC; "pro" means you have to have a certain number of wins under your belt.

Not really going anywhere; just providing some perspective.

Ron Tisdale wrote: Good rambling...no need to go anywhere in particular. Just currious...what do you think your aikido training and budo mindset bring to the SBG environment. Anything? Nothing?

Well, I definitely think it brings something. A few things actually. First and foremost, I've already got years of training under my belt, even if it's of a completely different variety. It just translates into me being comfortable and confident in basic body mechanics, movement, etc. that new guys have to learn, just like any martial art.

I'd also say my Aikido/budo training has given me more discipline and patience then both new and regular students. In budo you are told, right from the get go, that it is a long path and one that does not end. There is a much greater awareness that it is a pursuit of a lifetime, whereas I wonder how many of the guys I'm training with at the SBG will be there in a year. Which is funny because the coach very much has a life-long mindset. He'll talk about wanting to still be able to box when he's 55, playing it smart, careful, and conservative. However, that mindset is never really explained/transferred to the students.

On a purely technical level I will say that one thing I feel I have over everyone there, except for the top 3-4 guys who have been training BJJ for years, is ukemi. But not in the traditional sense. When I was uchi deshi, I remember one of the biggest things that developed/changed for me was my ukemi. Sure, I grew sharper and more technical in my application of techniques, but where I feel that I grew/developed the most was in my ukemi skills. Not just in the pure rote, mechanical sense, but in terms of a sensitivity and openness to my partner. Particularly because I was uke fro my sensei every class and he had the habit of changing technique in mid-movement, just to see if I was on my toes. Really good ukemi, IMO, is marked by a sort of hyper-awareness and intuitive-anticipation of what your partner is about to do. It's a high level of sensitivity that can't just be explained, it has to be learned over a long time. Now it's not the type where someone touches you and then you just auto-uke, but a real connection between shite and uke.

This helps me a TON in grappling/MMA. By having this type of sensitivity towards my partner, I'm able to react to their movements very quickly, or even anticipate their movements and try to move ahead of them. It's a skill that is eventually developed in grappling I think, but one that just sort of happens on its own. In my experience (admittedly limited) grappling people don't talk about it, yet all high level practitioners have it. It's the sort of thing that is just expected to develop over time, if the person is good enough and dedicated enough. Honestly, I wonder if a lot of them even know what it is they are doing. They might see it as a natural offshoot of their development in grappling, whereas I see it as a different, specific skill set all together. I think it is a big advantage that Aikido in particular, and Judo to some extent, have over other martial arts. I don't think someone coming to BJJ/MMA/grappling from something like Karate is going to have this same ukemi-based skill set.

The longer I stay with competitive, sport based martial arts, the more I look at them and my Aikido/budo training and feel as though both are incomplete, for me at least. I need the competition, aggressiveness, and ability to test my techniques in a "live" environment that the sports provide. Yet, I also desire the cultivation of self, focus, and mindset that budo provides. It's a dissonance that I am unable to reconcile at this point. I'll just keep training and hope it works itself out someday.

Thank you for that answer Keith.

Again, much respect.

Best,
Ron

My experiences pretty much parallel Keith's. I will tell you that I am able to grasp the new techniques very rapidly as I understand kokyu and center, and alignment much better than the newer guys.

Actually i was having a conversation about breathing with my students a few hours ago. Most of them strain and grunt, I think I learned a great deal about flow, energy, and breathing that helps technique.

I was able to get to blue belt in BJJ in about 6 months with no prior experience and no really formal instruction, as I have had a few seminars and I train out of books, videos, and the occassional instructor when I can find them.

I have a much better view on teaching and the ability to instruct because of aikido as well. That is, I understand the dynamics of the movements, connecting hips, center, etc...and I can break it down and explain it.

The hard part that everyone must go through is developing your game. that is I must roll and roll and roll with non-compliant uke's in order to learn how to put it all together without thinking about it.

There is no way to shortcut this process.

Good questions and thoughts

Oh BTW, I am 41 years old...so you are not allowed to say you are getting old Keith!

On another note, next week I travel to Lisbon, Portugual to compete in the Eurpoean Brazillian Jiujitsu championships. I am excited to see how I compare! Should be fun!

Keith Lee wrote: .... I'd also say my Aikido/budo training has given me more discipline and patience then both new and regular students. In budo you are told, right from the get go, that it is a long path and one that does not end. There is a much greater awareness that it is a pursuit of a lifetime, whereas I wonder how many of the guys I'm training with at the SBG will be there in a year. Which is funny because the coach very much has a life-long mindset. He'll talk about wanting to still be able to box when he's 55, playing it smart, careful, and conservative. However, that mindset is never really explained/transferred to the students ....

The attrition you refer to is not particular to SBG; it is an issue in every martial art. A very tradtional Shotokan sensei I met in Maine (19 years ago; where has the time gone!?) explained it to me like this:

Let's say you open a dojo and you have 100 students on your first day. Good for you! But in a year, only 10 of them will still be there. Out of those 10, one will test for shodan. And if you have 10 shodans, only one will go farther. So for every 1000 people who start MA training, only ONE will be at it for a lifetime! And this says nothing of the uncounted billions of people who think about doing it but never do.

Whether it's that bad for Aikido, I don't know; the dojo I go to seem to have loyal followings. But there are people who came and trained who haven't been seen in a while, too.

The same is true for gyms. They get a swell of new members at the start of the year because resolutions to get fit, but most if not all of those people are gone within a few months.

In the MA, burnout like this has been a concern for years. The only thing you can do when you start to feel it is keep training; that's all that gets you through it.

Keith Lee wrote: It seems to me that alot of these new, young guys want the competition/intensity of MMA/grappling but at some level under all that, in which they don't want to talk about, they still desire the discipline/focus of budo. Something to give all the training meaning in some way. Not really going anywhere with that, just rambling...

I have read some articles written by Matt Thornton (SBGi President) in SBGi website and in his blogs, and also some written by Luis Gutierrez (SBGi Vice President) and i've found more "budo" in them than in most written by the ones who claim to practice or understand budo.

Aliveness is about the freedom to use whatever works in the moment. Right action at right time. Which is another name for true compassion. A freedom that is only fully felt when one is completely immersed in the present moment of now, and free of the burden of beliefs, which manifest as thoughts. A clear mind fully aware of reality as it is now, and operating with absolute synchronicity within time and space, that is the real beginning of Aliveness. It is about Love. Matt Thornton

http://aliveness101.blogspot.com/200...aliveness.html

Do you really think or believe there is any honor or beauty in bloodshed? Do you really? Do you believe in the tales OF war written by those not IN war? Can you actually pretend to conceive or practice anything remotely accurate to what the aggression and the cruel and wicked will to violence entails and what part of it possesses and is possessed in a man? Would you truly want to? Why? Why would you seek such strength? To bare what? To carry what burden? What wounds does such a passion and bottomless hunger for strength hide? Do you not see such strength lies in weakness? Do you not see that such strength fears peace and does not wish it or act upon or behalf of it? What good strength without the wisdom to use it? What good strength without the compassion to value it? What good strength without the humility to surrender it? What good strength if not to build others? Luis Gutierrez

http://www.onedragon.com/article_08.html

Certianly the SBGi guys get it more than most, especially Thornton and Gutierrez. However, not every single SBGi coach ascribes to that same mindset or is overt in integrating it into their training.

Kevin Leavitt wrote: On another note, next week I travel to Lisbon, Portugual to compete in the Eurpoean Brazillian Jiujitsu championships. I am excited to see how I compare! Should be fun!

Good luck Kevin! That'll be exciting.

I've been training in Taekwondo for 14 and have since put it on hold for my aikido training, in which I'm currently 3rd kyu. Don't get me wrong, I haven't stopped practicing TKD all together. I still get out at the campus with the groups there and spar, but I haven't tested or learned new material in 2 years.

I originally decided to cross train in aikido because it was so vastly different from my original discipline. The most I could carry over would be reading the uke's in randori and keeping a good distance to maintain my mobility. Another plus is that when I was learning the footwork a fair amount of it was rehash for me. Aikido has helped my sparring in that my footwork has improved and I'm evading and countering more as well.

I digress. I feel that mixing other martial arts with others is good. It fills in the gaps that are not accounted for. I do feel that mixing arts is a personal matter, whether you wish to train in a contrasting or complimenting art is up to you. Additionally I feel that cross-training shouldn't be done untill you have a strong grasp of your current art. Though I will say that a grappling art or kendo could be trained at the same time as aikido; could be interesting or difficult.

Don Magee wrote: With 3 to 4 months of boxing, kyokushin karate, judo, mauy thai, bjj, sambo, etc. You will be good enough to handle most untrained people in the ring. Which I personally beleive transfers well to self defense on the street. Of course the blending is all up to you and how you look at and train your aikido. Personally, I was a judo/bjj/aikido guy. Now I'm mainly focued on bjj/mauy thai.

yes I agree with u Don, I am also a combat Aikido teacher here in the Phil. and I have dojo, I do teach combative aikido because I know they're very effective on the street fight, I combine aikido with Karate, Jujitsu and FMA which is Arnis. and it is very effective. My students do says positively the effectiveness of the combination of arts for they have experienced it on the street fight. And to say about Uyeshiba, he was a great fighter because he have combined all the arts and called it Aikido. It is already a Universal Art and complete because before he found it, he was already a practitioner of all those arts.

I obviously am passionately committed to mixed training...
but I have a few caveats.

1. It is not for beginners. Most folks need a base art; a shodan in one art before they branch out.

2. Someone must keep specific traditions alive and distinct. The traditional model acts as the thesis. Fusion is the antithesis. Synthesis occurs as conservatism and liberalism middle through each decade. Still, all arts are alive and change over time. It is good that change is taken at a conservative pace within traditional curriculums.

3. Respect is afforded to all practitioners and pioneers. They all, whether famous or not, whether successful or not, made major sacrifices for the future of the martial way.