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Guilty Spark 06-03-2006 01:45 PM

Mixing Aikido with other martial arts
 
Hi all.

I have a question about mixing aikido with other martial arts.
It's been suggested to me that I should wait until I have a fairly good grasp of aikido before I start trying to cross train and I understand the wisdom in that completly.

There is no doubt in my mind that I will reach black belt. How long that will take is another question, though I'm in no rush, it's the trip not the destination right?. To top it off I've challanged with an awkward working schedule and inability to find dojo's or partners when work takes me away from my home.

Anyways, I'm interested in complimenting my aikido with another martial arts (though keeping aikido as my primary interest)
Does anyone have any reccomendations on a self defense orientated martial arts that could possibly compliment my aikido? Maybe to fill in for some of aikidos weaker areas such as being dragged to the ground or if i'm stuck in a close quarters situation with someone?

JAMJTX 06-03-2006 03:05 PM

Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts
 
The only problem I see in training in other arts is that it will slow your progress in each.
You are right in making sure the art you cross-train in compliments Aikido well. Things that do: Certain Karate styles such as Shito Ryu and Goju Ryu. Shinden Jinen Ryu Karatedo is also rooted in Daito Ryu and could be interesting for you. Of course Judo has a long history of compatability with Aikido. I may seem bias here, but the Koroho that I am now learning and promoting blends very well with my Aikido.

Kevin Leavitt 06-03-2006 03:15 PM

Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts
 
Brazillian Jiujitsu. Grant, check out what we are doing in the U.S. Army. It has proven to be very effective with CQB situations. The basis of it is BJJ. BJJ complements aikido very well as it is also based on controlling center and posture alignment and the feedback process is very similar. although the methodology for training is quite different. I have found it to be a wonderful complement as have others on the list.

For Army guys like us...if you are looking for down and dirty relevant skills, i'd highly recommend our U.S. Army period of instruction. We have several videos out, as well as a Field Manual if you want to see how we are doing things.

We have many testimonials of guys that have used in the past couple of years.

https://www.infantry.army.mil/combatives/

let me know if you can't see it. I can get to it from my IP address in Germany, but I may also have "certificates" laptop that allows me to view .army.mil sights here.

Aristeia 06-03-2006 03:32 PM

Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts
 
I agree on the BJJ. Judo is usually the first on my "self defence" list for people given that it has more standup - but I found that my aikido trained body movement often got in the way of judo body movement and I've seen it happen the other way around as well - so maybe they don't go together as easily.

I disagree that doing two arts means you won't progress in either as quickly. Provided you are not sacrifcing a training spot in art A to train Art B this should not be the case (i.e. you are expanding your total training hours rather than putting more variety into your existing ones). Particularly if the arts you choose are complimentary, as BJJ/Aikido are in the ways Kevin outlined. Indeed when I was training both I found that the insights of one often carried over into the other and made my practice better.

Chris Li 06-03-2006 04:33 PM

Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts
 
Quote:

Jim McCoy wrote:
The only problem I see in training in other arts is that it will slow your progress in each.

Oft stated, but never proven.

Over the long run it has been my experience that cross-training (even from the beginning) enhances progress. If you take a look at studies done on bi-lingual children you see much the same thing - apparent slow-downs in linguistic skills in the early years, but greater achievement in the long run. No downside at all.

Best,

Chris

Larry John 06-03-2006 04:42 PM

Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts
 
Hey, Kevin!

I could see it from home. Good stuff!

When you comin' by the home dojo again?

Kevin Leavitt 06-03-2006 05:00 PM

Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts
 
I was trying for this summer, August...but that is quickly dropping by the wayside as I have a business trip to take for a few weeks mid month. I will be in the states, I believe in late august and I am shooting for the last week.

Yea the army stuff is good. It makes you scratch your head at first because the stuff Matt Larsen is showing you on the video is real basic stuff, but it is a good building block. Much like aikido, you don't really fight like that. Essentially it is "ground kata". the video does put our training into perspective though.

I wish we could have the time to fight at all the ranges and methods they show on the video, but pretty much we just do BJJ.

Guilty Spark 06-03-2006 07:04 PM

Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts
 
Thanks all (and thanks for the link!)

I see how studying two martial arts would reduce the amount of time spent progressing if time was an issue and unfortunately in my case it is.

Be that as it may I think Aikido takes a considerable amount of time to reach a level of proficiency where you can apply it in a self defense situation. (Or perhaps where you are comfortable doing so)

I think I need to balance my long term Aikido training with something thats effective self defense wise, which can be taught or picked up quicker. If I can blend them both together then even better.

Man this site really is worth the time to contribute to and learn from!
Cheers

DonMagee 06-03-2006 07:47 PM

Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts
 
With 3 to 4 months of boxing, kyokushin karate, judo, mauy thai, bjj, sambo, etc. You will be good enough to handle most untrained people in the ring. Which I personally beleive transfers well to self defense on the street. Of course the blending is all up to you and how you look at and train your aikido.

Personally, I was a judo/bjj/aikido guy. Now I'm mainly focued on bjj/mauy thai.

SeiserL 06-03-2006 08:14 PM

Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts
 
I cross train in FMA/JKD.

MM 06-03-2006 08:39 PM

Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts
 
Quote:

Lynn Seiser wrote:
I cross train in FMA/JKD.

I know JKD. :) I started in it for about 6 months and moved away from the dojo. Loved what I was learning. And it really did fit in with my Aikido.

I don't recognize FMA, though. What is that?

I'm starting kali/silat and so far it fits nicely with what I know in Aikido.

Mark

Niko_Brekalo 06-03-2006 09:14 PM

Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts
 
I wouldnt mind mixing in with jkd or even ninjitsu, i have always been interested in ninjitsu because it was made by village people vs trained armies

Jorge Garcia 06-03-2006 09:51 PM

Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts
 
I have been training in Aikido for 11 years, in Daito ryu Aikijujutsu Roppokai for two years, and in Muso Shinden Ryu Iaido for 1 year. I am having a great time but all three arts are very different from each other although they would seem to be related. I am not a fan of "cross training" for additional proficiency so I have little faith in that idea but I do like learning new and different things. It gives me a new perspective on Aikido which is my principal art.

Lyle Bogin 06-03-2006 10:23 PM

Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts
 
I still keep my san shou skills sharp as I can. Do folks practice that sport up your way? If you took judo and mixed it with karate free fighitng/kickboxing, you'd get something like it. Strikes, throws, no ground work. I love it.

I'd go out on a limb and say if you have never spent time learning to box, that's a great martial sport, and a fair means of self defense. It is easy to accumulate the whole skill set, and you can get real zen about it. It's also pretty safe. Then in a while you can move on to something new to mix with your core martial art (aikido). Ah, the sweet science!

Kevin Leavitt 06-04-2006 02:45 AM

Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts
 
Here's the deal for someone like Grant that is trying to gain quick and relevant skills. Nothing wrong with TMA, the methodology is simply too slow to focus in on the core skills you need to develop rapidly. This has been my experience.

Boxing skills are great, but in combat you aren't really going to box. If you can maintain this range in combat you can do other things typically. In a CQB environment typcially you move forward through your opponent rapidly or disengage rapidly to allow your buddy to engage or for you to employ another weapon etc.

We already have the "universal fight plan" built in. Most of us are born knowing how to strike and kick...maybe not as well as a trained martial artist...but still it is there.

So if you are looking to train rapidily you have to prioritize your skills. For soldiers, in empty hand, this typically involves from the Clinch, to the ground. We have found those are the areas in a empty hand CQB situation that are most relevant.

Next would be moving back out from the clinch to knife/striking range. For soldiers, this is a tough one to train rapidily. Knifes are fast! So again, we move back into the clinch range or we disenage to allow for your buddy to assist, or to grab a weapon, or put something between you and the enemy. Scenario based trainng really.

Then there is stick/bat range...again, you move into the clinch or you disengage, or you use your weapon as a striking object if it is malfunctioning. depends on the situation.

Aikido provides wonderful footwork and is among the best way to build some of this mid distance skills to evade and move...however, I would have to side with kali, escrima if I were going to train in a hurry to develop soldiers.

It is hard for us to accept sometimes, but it does not require a great deal of martial training, nor does it have to be complex and technical to teach a 80% solution to greatly enhance someones skills to respond appropriately in combat.

Now, if we start talking defense tactics and police skills that have a different set of rules of engagement and escalation of force criteria...that is a completely different topic and much of what I said above does not apply.

Neither does it apply if you want to have a breadth of skill and options available to you for purposes of budo, understanding, and want to explore areas of use of minimal force. All good stuff!

deepsoup 06-04-2006 09:36 AM

Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts
 
Quote:

Grant Wagar wrote:
Does anyone have any reccomendations on a self defense orientated martial arts that could possibly compliment my aikido?

Systema would be worth a look, if there's any around you.
hth
Sx.

SeiserL 06-04-2006 10:04 AM

Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts
 
Quote:

Mark Murray wrote:
I don't recognize FMA, though. What is that?

FMA: Fillipino martial arts (kali, escrims, arnis).

Its he stuff Inosanto taught Lee.

Mike Sigman 06-04-2006 10:22 AM

Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts
 
Quote:

Grant Wagar wrote:
Does anyone have any reccomendations on a self defense orientated martial arts that could possibly compliment my aikido? Maybe to fill in for some of aikidos weaker areas such as being dragged to the ground or if i'm stuck in a close quarters situation with someone?

I've taken a number of martial arts that were supposedly good and complete martial arts. If I got beat in some engagement, I usually figured it was because I didn't know the martial art that well, I wasn't in good enough strength-shape, etc.,.... I never had the idea that the martial art I spent so much time choosing was lacking in something that I could only get somewhere else. Weird to see so many people suggesting other arts for self-defense. How about "get stronger and learn more Aikido"? ;)

Mike

Nick Pagnucco 06-04-2006 12:01 PM

Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts
 
Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote:
I've taken a number of martial arts that were supposedly good and complete martial arts. If I got beat in some engagement, I usually figured it was because I didn't know the martial art that well, I wasn't in good enough strength-shape, etc.,.... I never had the idea that the martial art I spent so much time choosing was lacking in something that I could only get somewhere else. Weird to see so many people suggesting other arts for self-defense. How about "get stronger and learn more Aikido"? ;)

Mike

Combining this with the jo trick thread makes things into a headache inducing mobius strip, as it suggests to learn more aikido you'd need to go find stuff that isn't 'in' aikido, at leats in most dojos.

EDIT - disclaimer: what I just said was more flippant than not. As you, Mike, already pointed out, there's more to aikido than kokyu. The techniques & strategies of aikido are kinda important for aikido too

crbateman 06-04-2006 12:23 PM

Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts
 
I'd second the motion for Systema and for the Filipino arts, and toss in a nod for Shindo-ryu karate (such as that of Kenji Ushiro Sensei). There will doubtless be other good choices as well. The right match for you, however, is very much a function of the style of Aikido you practice. There are many different styles, and within them, many different teachers. A certain art might make good cross-training sense for some, whereas others might benefit more from a different source. Look around. Find what feels best for you. It's not a race, so take your time and find the right fit.

Jorge Garcia 06-04-2006 12:59 PM

Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts
 
Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote:
I've taken a number of martial arts that were supposedly good and complete martial arts. If I got beat in some engagement, I usually figured it was because I didn't know the martial art that well, I wasn't in good enough strength-shape, etc.,.... I never had the idea that the martial art I spent so much time choosing was lacking in something that I could only get somewhere else. Weird to see so many people suggesting other arts for self-defense. How about "get stronger and learn more Aikido"? ;)

Mike


Mike,
I thought then whole world was going crazy! Thanks for that drink of water in the Aiki desert! I bring this issue up on every thread that talks like this but I decided to drop it this time but it was still driving me crazy. It's odd to see so many people just responding "normally" to this idea. It's an acknowledgment that there is no complete martial art anywhere if good self defense is everything out there combined!
There are so many problems with that idea, that it makes my head spin!
1) Who would have time to learn so many arts? One is hard enough.
2) Who says you would be any good at arts # 2, 3, and 4? I know a guy that has been doing BJJ for years and the other guys just sit on him and yawn while he struggles to get away. I took him down and sat on him myself and I have never done BJJ.
3) What if you learned 7 martial arts and the other guy pulled a gun from 10 feet away.
4) What insecurity drives a person to need self defense so badly, that you have to learn 3 or 4 martial arts?
5) How many people that comment on a thread like this have done Aikido long enough to start to understand it. I have been studying it for 11 years and I am just starting to barely understand what my teacher explains to me and shows me.
6) How many people commenting on a this thread don't actually practice Aikido (You know who you are) or only practiced it at a kyu level?
7) Does the philosophy of all these arts make a difference to anyone out there or are we just looking for raw or brute techniques? (By that I mean form with no meaning).
8) Can the people that believe in the mixed martial art to get a better martial art theory really explain the philosophy of Aikido or has that thought never crossed our minds? This is a most important point because if Aikido has poor groundwork or no punching like karate or lacks anything at all, why would a martial artist like Morihei Ueshiba create something like that? Was he ignorant? Did he lack Ideas? Didn't he realize what a good punch in the nose could do?

Friends, I apologize in advance. I just had to get that out. My blood pressure has dropped 50 points and I feel better now. Please return to the topic at hand and ignore my rants.
By the way, I personally suggest Wing Chun, BJJ, a knife and a 38.
Best wishes,

Richard Langridge 06-04-2006 01:36 PM

Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts
 
Jorge, I can see your point, but in a practicle sense, doing other martial arts is simply a quicker way of learning physical self-defense techniques than studying Aikido on its own.

Mike Sigman 06-04-2006 02:38 PM

Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts
 
Quote:

Jorge Garcia wrote:
5) How many people that comment on a thread like this have done Aikido long enough to start to understand it. I have been studying it for 11 years and I am just starting to barely understand what my teacher explains to me and shows me.

Hi Jorge:

Well, to be fair, there should be *some* idea of how long it takes to use Aikido as a martial art or for self-defense, whatever. Even in Tai Chi (Taiji is the current preferred spelling), it's expected to take at least 5 years, according to the Chinese. The fact that many westerners have been practicing Taiji for 30-40 years and can't use it as a martial art suggests that it's either them or their teacher, doesn't it? I.e., it's not that the martial art is lacking. So maybe if people at least suggested the possibility that the reason cross-training is needed for Aikido *MAY* be not just the fault of Aikido... that should be considered as well.
Quote:

By the way, I personally suggest Wing Chun, BJJ, a knife and a 38.
I suggest getting in shape... the mind knows when the body is in fighting shape and worries disappear proportionately. Notice how O-Sensei worked out constantly to maintain his normal strength and his ki strength.

I assume you suggest a knife and a gun so you can cut 'em if they stand and shoot 'em if they run. ;)

Mike

Guilty Spark 06-04-2006 03:24 PM

Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts
 
Hey Jorge, I'm glad my thread helped your high blood pressure ;)

Since I started the thread I'll attempt to answer your questions from my point view and situation.

Quote:

1) Who would have time to learn so many arts? One is hard enough.
Agreed. Finding time to practice Aikido, let alone additional martial arts is tough. The problem I am faced with is that for up to 6 months at a time I may be unable to find an aikido school/class to practice in. Depending on my lack of luck I may even be unable to simply find a partner to practice with. If I am posted to a base without an active aikido community I may have to drive one or two hours each way to attend a class.

Quote:

2) Who says you would be any good at arts # 2, 3, and 4?
A very real possibility! I am of the mind that exploring any martial art when faced with the choice of that or no martial art at all is a good thing.

Quote:

3) What if you learned 7 martial arts and the other guy pulled a gun from 10 feet away.
Of course but this can beg the question of why bother to learn any martial art.

Quote:

4) What insecurity drives a person to need self defense so badly, that you have to learn 3 or 4 martial arts?
Good question! And a fair one too. In my case it is a matter of career. I'm looking at self defense because in my job there is a very real chance I will need it. An inability to defend myself will not only threaten my life but my peers as well. The feeling I'm getting from people (referring to your question #6) is that Aikido DOES take a long time to learn. Even at the "higher" levels your still learning. Looking at aikido and self defense from a practical point of view (using the amount of time I have to study and train with it), I feel that I run a good chance of not being able to use it effectively for a while at least. Perhaps when I've been exposed to it more but I may not have the opportunity to wait. Better safe than sorry.

Quote:

5) How many people that comment on a thread like this have done Aikido long enough to start to understand it. I have been studying it for 11 years and I am just starting to barely understand what my teacher explains to me and shows me.
Right. Eluding back to question 4, if you're barely understanding Aikido with 11 years under your belt how much do I honestly understand about it? (IE being able to use it effectively)

Quote:

6) How many people commenting on a this thread don't actually practice Aikido (You know who you are) or only practiced it at a kyu level?
Guilty of the latter. 6th Kyu myself.

Quote:

7) Does the philosophy of all these arts make a difference to anyone out there or are we just looking for raw or brute techniques? (By that I mean form with no meaning).
Good question. I've been debating with myself over this. Over all I prefer the aikido philosophy of not using force. I think it works much better on a practical level AND spiritual one.
I'll be glad when I'm at that level. Since I am not (yet) I feel that completely abandoning using force (in a real life self defense situation) while trying to understand how NOT to use force wouldn't be wise in my case.
I see it as a controlled gradual process.

Quote:

8) Can the people that believe in the mixed martial art to get a better martial art theory really explain the philosophy of Aikido or has that thought never crossed our minds? This is a most important point because if Aikido has poor groundwork or no punching like karate or lacks anything at all, why would a martial artist like Morihei Ueshiba create something like that? Was he ignorant? Did he lack Ideas? Didn't he realize what a good punch in the nose could do?
This is quite a bit beyond my level. I would venture a guess that he created aikido after seeing what a good punch to the nose COULD do? In order for him to really understand what aikido was (or would be?) he had to understand the In's and outs of using force.
I can't answer why he would make Aikido. Why he didn't incorporate punching or ground work. He had a dream. Considering his martial arts experience I am sure he was more than comfortable defending himself on the ground as much as standing, his aikido came after a life time of other martial arts (unless I am wrong please correct me)

Now I'm not suggesting aikido can only be done after you've trained in other martial arts. (I wouldn't know) I'm certain there are students out there who have only studied aikido and are just amazing. I can also understand how frustrating it must be to probably have a stream of people always asking the same questions, thank you for being patient.
My main reasons for bringing this up is again from a practical point of view centering on the fact that as much as I love all things aikido I do not have the luxury of 10 years of training.

I see aikido as an art that just takes a long time to learn due to how powerful it is, if it was easy everyone would be doing it. I'm looking to cover my butt until I get there. :D

Kevin the self defense your describing in your post is pretty much taken from the material found in the link you sent me? Seems like a very simple no non-sense approach!

Jorge Garcia 06-04-2006 05:56 PM

Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts
 
For Richard,
You wrote,"in a practice sense, doing other martial arts is simply a quicker way of learning physical self-defense techniques than studying Aikido on its own."

I don't have a problem with your response at all. I think you're premise is a good one. That's not my issue. My point was a reaction to the idea that combining different arts (along with Aikido) is the answer. I suggest that Grant finds one and sticks to it. The shortest distance between two points is a straight line.

Mike wrote,
"Well, to be fair, there should be *some* idea of how long it takes to use Aikido as a martial art or for self-defense, whatever. Even in Tai Chi (Taiji is the current preferred spelling), it's expected to take at least 5 years, according to the Chinese. The fact that many westerners have been practicing Taiji for 30-40 years and can't use it as a martial art suggests that it's either them or their teacher, doesn't it? I.e., it's not that the martial art is lacking. So maybe if people at least suggested the possibility that the reason cross-training is needed for Aikido *MAY* be not just the fault of Aikido... that should be considered as well."

I don't think I am disagreeing with Mike either. Aikido does take a long time to learn but so do most martial arts. Learning one would be more time efficient. I myself do 3 martial arts but I do aikido 4 days a week and I only have one evening a week for each of the other two and most times, I can hardly make it to the other two. I work and have a family so if I wanted self defense, three arts is not the way to go. I have been doing Daito ryu for two years and am a beginner. In Iaido, I am less than a novice. Maybe I'm slow but by now, I am definitely getting the idea that the martial arts aren't a fast track to self defense and anyone who really knows more than one art proficiently knows that.
I teach at a dojo that has Wing Chun and Goju Ruy karate. In Wing Chun, they definitely aren't in any rush. Our guys in Aikido after one year are doing a lot more than the WC guys are. (That's not a slam either. They practice fighting at least at 3 ranges and I would think that would take longer than what we are doing.) The Goju guys take as long as we do for a black belt but I really don't find them more prepared than we are. In fact, the Goju Ryu instructor has become my student. Look at his resume.
http://www.samuraimartialsports.com/staff.htm
He has been an Army Ranger and was in Special Forces. He tells me that Aikido is plenty tough enough for him. Two other Karate black belts are training with us. I have also had an 8th dan in Taekwondo and instructors in Shorin ryu, Shito ryu ,and Shotokan training with us as well. None of these guys seem to be as insecure about Aikido as the Aikido people are.

Maybe what I'm trying to say is that it frustrates me the way we so glibly start recommending a combining of arts without realizing that couldn't possibly be the answer to Grant's situation. I will,say that if Grant can find an art that will train him in more than one style of fighting, take that but don't take three arts! At least not for the purpose of added proficiency because I submit that if you become proficient on one of those, you will drop proficiency in Aikido and probably never realize it because you can't know what you never found out.

Mike Wrote,"I suggest getting in shape... the mind knows when the body is in fighting shape and worries disappear proportionately. Notice how O-Sensei worked out constantly to maintain his normal strength and his ki strength."

I wholeheartedly agree with this. In fact, that's why I am only relying on Aikido because I do agree with this. I train hard and long and with the best and if I get into trouble, standing or on the ground, the other guy is going to know he was in a fight. Training in more than one martial art (for added proficiency) would diminish this not add to it.
In short, I say take a martial art you can believe in and leave Aikido out if you think it lacks what you need. The art of Aikido is in danger of being lost if we use it as one of three or four choices for raw self defense. Train in the arts for their character enriching and transformative features and learn some self defense in the long haul. In the short haul, a gun will work but just being alert, staying out of dangerous places and working to stay out of trouble will do a lot better for you than any three or four martial arts combined.
Best,


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