Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Marc Abrams wrote: Organic Chem. = Premed Weeder....

Hereabouts, a Premed Weeder is a guy with a medical marijuana card who hasn't fired up yet in the morning

George S. Ledyard wrote: Hi to Tony from his "aiki bunny" friends, Marc and George, in America

priceless guys!

Greg

Don Nordin wrote: I have been thinking about this post for a while, and I want to ask this question, is it the Aikido that needs to be up to reality or is it really the mind that needs to be up to reality. I would argue its the mind, and the mind drives the Aikido.

This is very Chuang-tze-esque...

Basia Halliop wrote: Once you've faced off with an angry frightened rabbit trying to take on two human 'predators' each more than 20 times her weight... you might be inclined to see the term 'aikibunny' in a different light!

Why? A pejorative doesn't have to have anything to do with reality. If your goal is to disparage others, the truth won't stop you.

Mary Malmros wrote: Why? A pejorative doesn't have to have anything to do with reality. If your goal is to disparage others, the truth won't stop you.

Which was sort of demonstrated by the failure of my aikibunny-thread to instill a sense of irony or even self-reflection in certain people's minds, I suppose...

Don Nordin wrote: I have been thinking about this post for a while, and I want to ask this question, is it the Aikido that needs to be up to reality or is it really the mind that needs to be up to reality. I would argue its the mind, and the mind drives the Aikido.

Aikido is the path to leading the mind to reality. If the advertising is to be believed Aikido will lead you to replicate O-Sensei's enlightenment; the ultimate realisation of reality. Aikido drives the mind to reality; so goes the hypothesis.

On that basis I no longer seriously consider Aikido to be a martial art. Nor do I consider myself to really be studying Aikido. For all their skill no-one in my lineage could reasonably be thought of as a spiritual teacher; they're all purely, I would say, bugeisha.

In fact if we consider the do arts like Kendo, Judo, Aikido to have a spirtual dimension and jutsu arts to be purely about fighting skills then I would have to say that what I am doing is Aikijutsu because my training is not about reality in an over arching metaphysical sense; my training is about reality in rather more narrow sense.

O-Sensei said, "If you have not linked yourself to true emptiness, you will never understand Aikido." I very much doubt anyone in my lineage except perhaps Chiba would have a clue what true emptiness is never mind how Aikido keiko links one to it. I myself only know, intellectually, what true emptiness is because I study Buddhism and I doubt that one could deduce that everything is devoid of independent existance from studying what I practice under the lable of Aikido.
No-one who is interested in metaphysics would ordinarily go to a martial arts class to learn metaphysics or to seek enlightenment.

So on that basis I'd also say that the Aikibunnies are the Aikidoka but not martial artists and the rest of us are martial artists but not Aikidoka.

Alex Lawrence wrote: If the advertising is to be believed Aikido will lead you to replicate O-Sensei's enlightenment; the ultimate realisation of reality.

Hi Alex,
I know you said "if we are to believe the advertising," and I'm probably just being nit-picky, but I prefer to say it "can help" lead to replicate O Sensei's state of enlightenment (whatever that may have actually been).

No-one who is interested in metaphysics would ordinarily go to a martial arts class to learn metaphysics or to seek enlightenment. So on that basis I'd also say that the Aikibunnies are the Aikidoka but not martial artists and the rest of us are martial artists but not Aikidoka.

Well I'm probably not very ordinary, but that's more or less why I came to this martial art. I do think the two tend to neglect each other (not just in Aikido), but I get the sense that there are a lot of folks who straddle this dichotomy pretty well. It's probably rather convenient for me to mention my own teacher, but I get the sense he and his more dedicated students (I wish I could include myself as an example of this) are very good examples of people who are both martially inclined AND metaphysically inclined. We're rare in the fact that we're a jinja, but I think a lot of people share a similar intent with regard to metaphysical and martial function.
Particularly when we consider metaphysics in conjunction with Natural Religion, we can see how very physically-oriented practices might in fact be very metaphysical in nature...when the mind is applied in that regard.
Take care,
Matt

Actually my initial point was not referring to the spiritual side of Aikido at all, it was referring to the state of mind that one needs to be in to survive an aggressive encounter. If your mind is not into discharging the aggressor with all your being then your Aikido skills, or boxing skills or Judo, whatever... take your pick, will not be as effective as it can be.

Hi Attilio.

Regadless of the ban mention you make, which i know nothing about, parhaps it may be conforting for you knowing that, about what you say, I am all on your side.

I came from an agonistic boxing background (over 20 years ago) and I recently started to discover a passion for Aikido.

What you say has been already noticed by everybody who has a competitive background in martial Arts or fighting: most Aikido dojos are totally unrealistic.

You have to live with the fact, Attilio. You won't convert them.

This is not, actually, their fault to be sure.
If, like in my case, you have a boxing background, you grew used to get hit on your face (right on your face) by straight punches thrown at you with the intention to incapacitate you and, possibily, to cause brain damages.
This happens in such a minority of cases, that boxing is still today practiced and boxing matches arranged.

However, who has no actual fighting background, simply has no idea what a fight may be. So, as a start, they are all misled in their idea that the more it is fictional the more it is safer. In fact, the more it is fictional the more it is dangerous, because you will discover that your aikido does NOTHING that one very same day, unique in your life, where you needed it MOST.
They will discover it then.

We are not speaking here of throwing a sankyo on a drunkard. We are speaking of what you speak: someobody in full possession of his strength who has the intention of mauling you physically, immediately, brutally.
Most aikidokas, facing this, would learn their aikido will do nothing - and the little that could have done something, will be unusable because fear will take seize of them immediately and they will learn then that if you can't manage fear, there is no martial art background that may be usable.

The only way not to fear is: being used to fighting.
Only experience brings confidence. You will know that you are expereinced when these two things will happen to you:

1) You will know what your opponent is going to do by merely looking into his eyes. You will know this INFALLIBLY. Till then, you're NOT expereinced enough. The only times you will be wrong, will be the times you get knocked down - which happens VERY rarely in these cases!
THIS will bring TRUE confidence.
2) You will know what to do next as a chess player can foresee all the combinations - only you will be much faster.

If you cannot practice in suitable dojos, and yet you are combat oriented you have only 2 options, unless you find a dojo combat oriented

1) You train by yourself, with katas (arrange also a ladder with acquagym tubes coming out from it: katas will come better agains those, and the tubes won't be more static than too many ukes we meet...)
2) you find like minded PARTNERS, not masters, and you train with them. The only things you will have to be cautious about are projections - you won't do complete kotegaeshis :-)

If you can afford only number 1, then you are exploring a brand new venture: how hard do you need to practice, in order to awaken in yourself your inner Matser?
You will have to discover this by yourself.

ps could not fully edit my previous note so I add this Post Scriptum here:

the attacks in your "Animal day" are very dangerous for an unexperienced fighter, but are (believe me) totally ridiculous for an experienced one.

In my boxing gym, 20 years ago, whoever woudl have attacked in that way would have found himself knowcked down, if not out, within 2 seconds - the time of recolletting calmness, aiming, and meeting his face with a straight right.

Those attacks will have full success against anybody who, facing an attack or an atemi, closes his eyes. If you attack that way somebody who does not close his eyes, he can keep you at bay by mere combinations of jab/right/jab/right/jab/right: 6 times. Step back, repeat.

What do they do in the video? Against the first attack, the guy closes his eyes (lowers his head, same thing: he sees no more what's coning in); against the second, he uses a hook - but those attacks need straihgt blows to make the attacker bounce back.

Don Nordin wrote: Actually my initial point was not referring to the spiritual side of Aikido at all, it was referring to the state of mind that one needs to be in to survive an aggressive encounter. If your mind is not into discharging the aggressor with all your being then your Aikido skills, or boxing skills or Judo, whatever... take your pick, will not be as effective as it can be.

"Without me my rifle is useless, without my rifle I am useless."

The question is therefore about the nature of Aikido. Is it a rifle; does it function as a martial art? If a shodan Judoka requests and is granted a sparring match with a yondan Aikidoka and the Aikidoka looses should his students continue with him? Would it still be reasonable to say that the yondan is a skilled Aikidoka?
In martial terms what should we expect from Aikido in various situations?

Don Nordin wrote: Actually my initial point was not referring to the spiritual side of Aikido at all, it was referring to the state of mind that one needs to be in to survive an aggressive encounter. If your mind is not into discharging the aggressor with all your being then your Aikido skills, or boxing skills or Judo, whatever... take your pick, will not be as effective as it can be.

Well, when you talk about the mind comprehending reality sufficiently, metaphysics does often enter the topic I think...particularly when you get into looking to O Sensei as some measure of what a mind could/should look like, which seems a valid approach to me.
That said, I agree: if you're not mentally strong, your strong body will probably falter at some point...which is why when the topic of self-defense comes up I almost always point first to the importance of having a good mind/awareness above a good fighting style.
I believe the monks who set themselves ablaze to protest the Vietnam War were recently mentioned as an example of how simply practicing mental exercises can indeed create calm behavior in the midst of very extreme circumstances. A strong mind can endure and remain flexible enough to process/evaluate and then respond (the unavoidable physical requirements of the mind-body). To me, this is the very definition of personal strength.

Since I am still online for a bit I take the liberty of adding a couple of considerations:

@Axel: very well said, yet do you know how a Zen master would have answered to a pupil asking those questions? :-)

@Matthew: you're right, it's the mind. If you can keep your eyes open against incoming and landing blows and you can still look straight into the face a charging opponent, you will be surprised at how infinitely more effective you will be in defending yourself.
Actually, I personally believe that a combat oriented style is more geared, possibily, to teach you this attitude and ability rather than a technique or another.

Question of the day:
did you ever fall when doing kotegaeshi against your opponent?

If you didn't, you're not training hard enough ahahahah :-)

Alberto very well said.
Matthew I completely agree.

George S. Ledyard wrote:

I bet you two "docile" aikibunnies can turn into a bunny fiercer then the one in Monty Python in the blink of an eye.

I actually believe this is one of you.........

Alberto Italiano wrote: Since I am still online for a bit I take the liberty of adding a couple of considerations: @Axel: very well said, yet do you know how a Zen master would have answered to a pupil asking those questions? :-) @Matthew: you're right, it's the mind. If you can keep your eyes open against incoming and landing blows and you can still look straight into the face a charging opponent, you will be surprised at how infinitely more effective you will be in defending yourself. Actually, I personally believe that a combat oriented style is more geared, possibily, to teach you this attitude and ability rather than a technique or another.

The Zen masters argument only really applies if you believe there is no difference between life and death though.

Aikido is an ambition.

If your concern is fighting, you should not look for aikido in the first place. If you're serious about self-defense, I strongly recommend boxe as the real thing. No thai, no full contact or other flavors - plain boxing.
Or, as said, a gun (which however leaves you with VERY little options, and a significant possibility to end in jail or shoot yourself on your foot).

However in order to boxe, you need to pass medical tests, and no gym would accept you even as a sparring punching bag if you're above 30 and, even worst, if you're 20+ no gym will take you seriously or invest on you (their mistake to be sure, but many of them gain money by winning matches so they reason in a very cynical manner you see...). They may just let you loitering around, probably.

Sadly, this means that the chances for a person to develop real combat skills are near to zero.
There is no way to express the full extent of how regrettable this is, for there is nothing (simply nothing) in life more formative than fighting. If you take it seriously, it strongly structures your personality - and will take away from you any violent attitude, if any.

Aikido is, probably, the most ambitious way to fight. I don't know why many persons choose aikido and then transform it in that pointless dance Attilio refers to. The funny thing is, they even consider themselves dangerous - I heard many times guys saying that their aikido is so lethal that they could break and arm or wrist if they don't do it as carefully as they do. How delusional.
Obviously enough, they have never been (not even) in a dilettanti boxing match (a trivial instance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmmBX0J5S1Y ) or they would not consider physical clash that lethal thing they seem to believe it could be. People hit each other on their faces everyday in boxing gyms, and no carnage has ever been reported - at most a few broken noses!

So what I want to say is that if you choose Aikido, clearly you have not chosen it in order to defend yourself in the most effective way. You have chosen it in order to savour the challenge of testing yourself, of seeing whether you may one day come to dominate a physical clash using that sophisticated aikido stuff that is utterly unusable unless you're a God at it.

I heard once in a dojo the 'sensei' lecturing that your opponents most of the time won't be experienced - so you won't need to be very skillful.
Once the lesson finished, I quit that dojo.

For, Attilio, you're right: practicing aikido without thinking about the real thing, is a contradiction. You better go jogging then, or swimming, or do pilates. I don't care whether I may meet or not a really dangerous opponent: it just makes no sense training me for anything different, that is.

So, what can be said?
You're right, most dojos will NEVER educate you to real combat in the least - though they may instill in you the false confidence that you have learned what to do. That wrong and utterly baseless confidence, one day, may maim or kill you.

At the same time, Aikido is so sophisticated, it is clearly a challenge that you pose to yourself: you want to dominate chaos with a super-refined Art.

To achieve that, Attilio - you may need a lifetime and yet never succeed.

Train hard, train harder, then train even harder again. If dojos don't let you, train alone. Train alone in the dark, harder. Train alone harder and harder. Then train again, harder.
You have to hope one day, as a gift of the gods or an act of grace, something will leap out of your deepest mind and you will feel that fatal "click" that will give to you the only black belt worth having.
For as I said, there comes a point in fighting arts when you know INFALLIBLY what's going to happen in a fight before it happens. Until then, you're not experienced.
It is my _assumption_ aikido too may serve such a dish. It is my choice to try this adventure, to see whether also by aikido I can one day have the same sensation boxe gave to me after years.

Aikido is an ambition. Human beings are too weak for so great an ambition.
Months ago I was disconcerted like you.
You have to understand - it's all in the mind. It's you and Aikido. No dojos, no senseis, only you and the Art.

If you want to fight with Aikido, you have to reconcile yourself with the fact that dojos that will let you face the real thing don't exist, and that, if you're serious about a MArtial Aikido, you're alone.

Now: go, and train.
Harder.
You don't even need a dojo - old Zen monks had satoris (illumination) while sitting on charnel grounds. The infamous hut is enough. A "real" samurai doesn't need frills and panoramic views ahahahah LOL

For it's all in your mind - delusions and determination both.

It has to become for you a way of being - a "Budo". One of your Dominant Thoughts.

Train hard. Alone, with partners, in idle dojos or less idle ones if you ever find one - wherever you can.
If you want to use aikido to face the real thing, you want something very very very ambitious.

Think. Train. Breathe. Envision. Fight, if you can.

Train harder. You're looking for that "click". I think Aikido gives it only to very, very few.

Certainly, not to me.

Alberto Italiano wrote: Aikido is an ambition. If your concern is fighting, you should not look for aikido in the first place. If you're serious about self-defense, I strongly recommend boxe as the real thing. No thai, no full contact or other flavors - plain boxing. Or, as said, a gun (which however leaves you with VERY little options, and a significant possibility to end in jail or shoot yourself on your foot). However in order to boxe, you need to pass medical tests, and no gym would accept you even as a sparring punching bag if you're above 30 and, even worst, if you're 20+ no gym will take you seriously or invest on you (their mistake to be sure, but many of them gain money by winning matches so they reason in a very cynical manner you see...). They may just let you loitering around, probably. Sadly, this means that the chances for a person to develop real combat skills are near to zero. There is no way to express the full extent of how regrettable this is, for there is nothing (simply nothing) in life more formative than fighting. If you take it seriously, it strongly structures your personality - and will take away from you any violent attitude, if any. Aikido is, probably, the most ambitious way to fight. I don't know why many persons choose aikido and then transform it in that pointless dance Attilio refers to. The funny thing is, they even consider themselves dangerous - I heard many times guys saying that their aikido is so lethal that they could break and arm or wrist if they don't do it as carefully as they do. How delusional. Obviously enough, they have never been (not even) in a dilettanti boxing match (a trivial instance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmmBX0J5S1Y ) or they would not consider physical clash that lethal thing they seem to believe it could be. People hit each other on their faces everyday in boxing gyms, and no carnage has ever been reported - at most a few broken noses! So what I want to say is that if you choose Aikido, clearly you have not chosen it in order to defend yourself in the most effective way. You have chosen it in order to savour the challenge of testing yourself, of seeing whether you may one day come to dominate a physical clash using that sophisticated aikido stuff that is utterly unusable unless you're a God at it. I heard once in a dojo the 'sensei' lecturing that your opponents most of the time won't be experienced - so you won't need to be very skillful. Once the lesson finished, I quit that dojo. For, Attilio, you're right: practicing aikido without thinking about the real thing, is a contradiction. You better go jogging then, or swimming, or do pilates. I don't care whether I may meet or not a really dangerous opponent: it just makes no sense training me for anything different, that is. So, what can be said? You're right, most dojos will NEVER educate you to real combat in the least - though they may instill in you the false confidence that you have learned what to do. That wrong and utterly baseless confidence, one day, may maim or kill you. At the same time, Aikido is so sophisticated, it is clearly a challenge that you pose to yourself: you want to dominate chaos with a super-refined Art. To achieve that, Attilio - you may need a lifetime and yet never succeed. Train hard, train harder, then train even harder again. If dojos don't let you, train alone. Train alone in the dark, harder. Train alone harder and harder. Then train again, harder. You have to hope one day, as a gift of the gods or an act of grace, something will leap out of your deepest mind and you will feel that fatal "click" that will give to you the only black belt worth having. For as I said, there comes a point in fighting arts when you know INFALLIBLY what's going to happen in a fight before it happens. Until then, you're not experienced. It is my _assumption_ aikido too may serve such a dish. It is my choice to try this adventure, to see whether also by aikido I can one day have the same sensation boxe gave to me after years. Aikido is an ambition. Human beings are too weak for so great an ambition. Months ago I was disconcerted like you. You have to understand - it's all in the mind. It's you and Aikido. No dojos, no senseis, only you and the Art. If you want to fight with Aikido, you have to reconcile yourself with the fact that dojos that will let you face the real thing don't exist, and that, if you're serious about a MArtial Aikido, you're alone. Now: go, and train. Harder. You don't even need a dojo - old Zen monks had satoris (illumination) while sitting on charnel grounds. The infamous hut is enough. A "real" samurai doesn't need frills and panoramic views ahahahah LOL For it's all in your mind - delusions and determination both. It has to become for you a way of being - a "Budo". One of your Dominant Thoughts. Train hard. Alone, with partners, in idle dojos or less idle ones if you ever find one - wherever you can. If you want to use aikido to face the real thing, you want something very very very ambitious. Think. Train. Breathe. Envision. Fight, if you can. Train harder. You're looking for that "click". I think Aikido gives it only to very, very few. Certainly, not to me.

I'd dispute that. Aikido is stupid simple what's highly complex is the way the simplicity is taught. There's a lot of beating around the bush in the way Aikido is taught but when you get down to the nuts and bolts of what is actually taught it's rather unsophisticated.

Alberto Italiano wrote: Those attacks will have full success against anybody who, facing an attack or an atemi, closes his eyes. If you attack that way somebody who does not close his eyes, he can keep you at bay by mere combinations of jab/right/jab/right/jab/right: 6 times. Step back, repeat.

Or you do what the BJJ guys do and just enter in low, only instead of going to the ground with it you get a body lock pick/clinch and irimi nage him from there. Or sling him over your shoulder and then drop/slam him into the floor. Jobs a good 'un.

This is why I got out of striking arts; if you can't deck the guy with one punch he will get hold of you and there is no defence for being picked up. It's not like you can air sprawl. I got fed up of Sensei demonstrating this fact and decided to join the class.

And this is why I like Aikido so much. The kata are complex and quite limited but the applications for someone with a bit of imagination are legion and the applications are often quite simple.

Alex Lawrence wrote: I'd dispute that. Aikido is stupid simple what's highly complex is the way the simplicity is taught. There's a lot of beating around the bush in the way Aikido is taught but when you get down to the nuts and bolts of what is actually taught it's rather unsophisticated.

Alex,you have hit upon something very true!!

Not just Aikido,but Taiji,bagua,Eckey Thump,all taught(mostly)back to front.

The reason why judoka's have excelled at Aikido,better than Aikidokas themselves,is down to mainly one thing!!!

BALANCE!

If you train for a high degree of dynamic balance,you can learn very quickly any technique(natural movement) from any art,and mix them up so they become no technique!
that's is what internal arts are...your own!!!

This twenty year technique idea is pure bollocks.
How many olympic swimmers,gymnasts,took that long to become good!

From a baby onwards we naturally learn through natural trial and error.Think riding bikes,climbing trees ect.

People can teach you techniques till the cows come home,but they can't teach you physical balance(purely internal).

Techniques are at best 1% of your art! 80% is balance,body unity follows along with proprioception,and working with gravity is what give you power.then it becomes very sophisticated and can always be improved along your life long martial journey!

Obviously you become more balanced practicing techniques.
But that is the backward slooooow way!! Plus you're thinking!making learning even slooooweeeer!

This why many masters,remain the master,instead of the pupil becoming the master,which can be done in months NOT years!

Food for thought maybe!!

Mark Ackrill wrote: This why many masters,remain the master,instead of the pupil becoming the master,which can be done in months NOT years! Food for thought maybe!!

Interesting hypothesis! Of course I believe it to be nonsense. Kindly show me ANY Judoka who have become like Mfume Sensei in a couple of months........ Okay, for that matter, show me ANY modern day Judoka who moves like he did.

Marc Abrams

Marc Abrams wrote: Interesting hypothesis! Of course I believe it to be nonsense. Kindly show me ANY Judoka who have become like Mfume Sensei in a couple of months........ Okay, for that matter, show me ANY modern day Judoka who moves like he did. Marc Abrams

I re-read my post!

Don't think I mentioned 2 months!!
Although two months of choreography,which is what most Aikido is,would be a very good start.

Koiche tohe struggled with a cameraman untrained in any art,because the cameraman didn't know he was not supposed to resist.In other words he didn't make a good uke.

Obviously there are people with natural talent,and will be good at anything.

In 1954 there was a handful of sub four minute milers.Every other good club runner is knocking on that door now.So not just natural talent but the right training!

Don't know who Mfume sensei is but if he moves with grace and power,it is because of superior balance.
If you have more balance than your opponent you can do anthing you like to him.

In fact arn't ki exercises, balance through Aikido moves?Answer I know so.It is there PRIMARY function. Ground fighting is the same.Granted different balance points(hip,back,butt ect) never the less balance.

If your balance is less than what it can be,your power is frittered away.Like cracking a whip but letting go of the handle just before the crack.They call that limp noodle taiji. Infact you are the handle not the whip.

Taiji and bagua are famous for,twisting,turning,Yielding,fast flexible footwork,all to do will balance.
The key is single leg strength/balance work not techniques.
Good balance does not take years to improve.
A few minutes a day brings big gains relatively quickly.

Didn't they say Jigoro Kano was like fighting an empty Jacket.
Abbe sensei,a master of several arts.Either he did ten hours a day training for years or "Perhaps" something else.

Mark.

Mark Ackrill wrote: Don't know who Mifune sensei is

When he was young:
Pic1, Pic2, Pic3 & Clip

When he was old:
Clip

Mark Ackrill wrote: I re-read my post! Don't think I mentioned 2 months!! Although two months of choreography,which is what most Aikido is,would be a very good start. Koiche tohe struggled with a cameraman untrained in any art,because the cameraman didn't know he was not supposed to resist.In other words he didn't make a good uke. Obviously there are people with natural talent,and will be good at anything. In 1954 there was a handful of sub four minute milers.Every other good club runner is knocking on that door now.So not just natural talent but the right training! Don't know who Mfume sensei is but if he moves with grace and power,it is because of superior balance. If you have more balance than your opponent you can do anthing you like to him. In fact arn't ki exercises, balance through Aikido moves?Answer I know so.It is there PRIMARY function. Ground fighting is the same.Granted different balance points(hip,back,butt ect) never the less balance. If your balance is less than what it can be,your power is frittered away.Like cracking a whip but letting go of the handle just before the crack.They call that limp noodle taiji. Infact you are the handle not the whip. Taiji and bagua are famous for,twisting,turning,Yielding,fast flexible footwork,all to do will balance. The key is single leg strength/balance work not techniques. Good balance does not take years to improve. A few minutes a day brings big gains relatively quickly. Didn't they say Jigoro Kano was like fighting an empty Jacket. Abbe sensei,a master of several arts.Either he did ten hours a day training for years or "Perhaps" something else. Mark.

It's not balance. Kokyu and push tests won't help you ride a bike. You won't get the ghost feeling from good balance; that's something that has to be worked on and it's mostly to do with the elbow as far as I can see. Don't ask me to explain it; I don't fully understand it myself.