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Old 02-27-2011, 02:03 PM   #1
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
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Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

First of all I would like to say thank you Jun for banning me from this site for one month, It seems to me that having controversial opinions and thought is not very welcomed by many on this site.... Then again, it was a welcome break from so many IS/IP threads that were bogging down the forum!!..

Reading the AikiWeb forums, I often read with a sense of disbelief at some of the replies from so many who simply have no concept of what a real life hostile situation brings to their lives.... More often than not, there is no time for for a polite conversation, as most victims don't know "what happened?"
Plus the trauma that comes from it afterwards, so need counseling to get over their "shock"?
As a Taxi Driver/Owner (cabbie) of 23 years experience I get more than my alloted share...When you consider that in the last ten years alone there have been around 40 murders of cabbies in the UK, plus countless thousands of assaults, most that go unrecorded..... It boggles the mind!!
Violence happens across the country on a regular basis, in every town, city, week in, week out.... so those of you that say or think it will probably "never happen to me" are so wrong!! The chances are sooner or later it will happen...... You have been lucky so far!!

Geoff Thompson a UK well known and respected writer, bodyguard and ex doorman is so bang on the nose when it comes to the state of traditional MA of today!! His methods have mirrored mine. Although his experience is vast compared to mine, he is exactly right about real violence.....video attached.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5yS1...eature=related

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...pushchair.html

I / We (cabbies) work with the doormen and police here in Winchester UK, that is, those who are switched on, who are aware, who do something about their situation, and do have the bottle to do what is required!! Most of the doormen and police officers I know in Winchester know that I practice and teach aikido. I do get a lot of
respect from them, as I do them..... They really do know the reality!! Most openly say in conversation that people are just so totally unaware, so therefore do not take responsibility for themselves in our modern societies, and then wonder why when it does happen they blame everything else except their own inability to take more control of themselves or their own enviroment!!

When people come to me for aikido instruction, I give them a choice....
If you are only doing it for health, that's fine, but you will never achieve Shodan level. I make that a paramount requisite!! Most understand that....
Those that don't, either leave, or carry on knowing that, for them, Shodan level is out of reach unless they go through the pressure testing required for the level. Once Shodan level has been reached we have refresher sessions to make sure they keep 'alive' the 'reality sessions'
This we do until people reach 50 years of age, after that we allow for age differences, physical ailments or restrictions. All those who have managed to get to Shodan in the club I have put under pressure as part of their grading. It's probably why we have always had small numbers attending!! Dan grades within the club we have had are very few. Since starting Aikido Habatakukai since 1981 I have had only 10 who have made it to Shodan and beyond. We do this testing by wearing protective head gear for atemi practice if required, also we incorporate simple judo newaza, as well as the standard Tomiki/Shodokan aikido waza/syllabus, plus variations, combinations and kaeshi waza taught or practised in most T/S dojo's.
Half of my altercations with the idiot public have gone to the ground, so I teach newaza all the same, with all the dirty cheating methods incorporated!!. The ground is not a good place to be, but that is the reality for most fights or altercations..... Up until 2007 when I still had a dojo, I often rolled with my students to keep my own hand in and still took ukemi for my students. I still practice most days for an hour or more, atemi waza, weapon suburi (outside when it's not raining cats and dogs). In addition to that my regime of isometric/isotonic exercise (my own version of I/S or I/P training if you want to call it that!!)
All those who harp on about IP or IS?...
Just train with uncooperative partners or players as we have done in T/S aikido since its inception!! Or better still take up MMA, judo or whatever has resistance in it, you will be better off, plus you will soon find out how to move people! I will keep practising until my body will not allow me to do so anymore. Then it will be time to retire gracefully....
When we see the old video clips of Proff Ueshiba as an 80 year old man easily throwing all those big strapping ukes around, let it be known that those uchi deshi/ukes were doing that in deep respect of an old man who had done the busines all his life, had trained for strength and knew how to move people through having competitive matches, just as they have done in judo for so long now. Look at how successful judo has become!! Can we honestly say that about aikido?
Ask yourself, why did Tomiki Shihan introduce a competitive aikido similar to judo? Not just that it was a requirement of Waseda University, but he also knew in his heart that aikido would become weak, just as it has done!! Remember he was the first 8th Dan awarded to him by Ueshiba himself!! He was virtually branded a heretic because of his rational ideas.
The irrational has proved to be the undoing of aikido in my eyes and also many others who choose to stay quiet, and that is the truth!!
It's about time that those who practice aikido as dance, get wise and start doing an aikido we can all be proud of again..... Or carry on dreaming the dance in most cases!!
Better still remove their black belts, give up their excuse for what they consider aikido and join a good dance and social club, it would be far better health wise, for them and aikido!!
After all this time some are beginning to wake up to the reality, and have found out that it can be done, but it takes hard work, usually shunned by most!!

What is the point of learning a martial art if you don't want to learn to defend yourself? It's like saying I want to do rifle shooting without the bullets!! To say it's good for health is good sense, but that should not be the prime reason to learn any Martial Art..... If it is, you really should be learning dance or yoga or even gymnastics!! There are a vast array of other disciplines which involves physical education such as track and field or some other pursuit. They will help your martial art from a coordination, agility and stamina point of view, but it will not protect you or possibly your family!! Maybe the track as you will have built the stamina to run like a bat out of hell !!
I love to dance as that is fun to do, or yoga to some extent when I am doing stretching, which is fine!! But I repeat it should not really be the prime objective.... Hakama is a choice that is worn only after 2nd Dan in Aikido Habatakukai. Most prefer not to wear the hakama, but we do from time to time to keep some tradition.... T/S aikido clubs generally only use hakama for demonstration enbu or kata in competitions.
As I base our training on the Tomiki/Shodokan syllabus. We start on light randori, right from achieving yellow belt, onwards. We take care at the lower grades, until ukemi is confident enough. Training sessions are normally in two halves, that is Randori/Kata. I have personally found this to be the quickest way to get people up to speed, and to learn a modicum of self defence even at an earlier stage. Those that do it for health practice kata only. That is fine, but they are under no illusions whatsoever that they can defend themselves effectively!!.... Just remember that an ineffective aikido can also be detrimental to your health and well being!!
 
Old 02-27-2011, 02:43 PM   #2
Aikido-Sensei
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Look,
my father will agree with you, he used to fight a lot, not in the dojo.
when someone was making something insulting to him he will roll the ball back... and the game starts - then he used aikido to show that he is not weak.

i think that this is wrong, because it's not 1800 today, it's 2011, we have space tech and stuff, if some "baboon" finds you on his way, sometimes you can make an sad puppy face and he will leave you alone... aikido is about avoiding fights... sometimes the technique is in your head.

Watch Aikido videos on Aikido Sensei - Aikido Videos
 
Old 02-27-2011, 03:05 PM   #3
itaborai83
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

I think part of the problem we have today is using the same word, Aikido, to describe incredibly dissimilar ways of training. IMHO, it would be wise to reinstate the term Aikijujutsu (or something similar) in a sort of "official" way to indicate what is already known to many, that there are clear differences in intent and purpose in those who practice what we call Aikido today.

We try to cater the same "product" to different people and what we end up with is a mess caused by lack of quality control. There ought to be clearer and stricter expectations regarding what a shodan is capable of. We don't need to go "Animal Day" (nice video, by the way), but aliveness and resistance shouldn't be treated as a taboo subject.

regards,
Daniel
 
Old 02-27-2011, 03:20 PM   #4
SeiserL
 
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Geoff is great.

IMHO, all training is artifical.

So no, my Aikido is not up to reality.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
 
Old 02-27-2011, 03:24 PM   #5
Hellis
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

HI Tony
Welcome back, I have to agree with you on the IS/IP threads, but you don't want to get banned again.

My son would agree with you as I do, have you read his article on his blog " Aikido in MMA " .. He is not very good at breathing through his toes, odour eaters don't help much.....I asked him to try the power of ribbons ? ...You need to try the stern look Tony, that always puts the pony up the thugs. http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-blogs.blogspot.com/
 
Old 02-27-2011, 03:44 PM   #6
Dave de Vos
 
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Should a martial art be concerned with street effectiveness to be called a martial art?

How about kendo, kyudo, iaido, sumo?
Are these martial arts? I think yes.
Do these arts train to be effective on the street? I have no experience in any of these arts, but I think street effectiveness is not a major concern here.

Some martial arts are more concerned with street effectiveness. I guess kyokushin karate and systema would fall in this category.

My understanding is that aikido is somewhere in between.
 
Old 02-27-2011, 04:04 PM   #7
itaborai83
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
Should a martial art be concerned with street effectiveness to be called a martial art?

How about kendo, kyudo, iaido, sumo?
Are these martial arts? I think yes.
Do these arts train to be effective on the street? I have no experience in any of these arts, but I think street effectiveness is not a major concern here.

Some martial arts are more concerned with street effectiveness. I guess kyokushin karate and systema would fall in this category.

My understanding is that aikido is somewhere in between.
Dave,

You raise a good point, but the problem is the poor deluded bastards that think they are bad-asses and try to act as if they were, or even the passive aggressiveness that stems from thinking you are either martially or spiritually superior to others just because we wear white pajamas a couple of times a week. The inbetweeness of Aikido helps to fuel these delusions and misconceptions.

regards,
Daniel
 
Old 02-27-2011, 04:29 PM   #8
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
Geoff is great.

IMHO, all training is artifical.

So no, my Aikido is not up to reality.
I respect your honesty Lynn.... Thank you for your comment...

Regards

Tony
 
Old 02-27-2011, 04:39 PM   #9
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Daniel Itaboraí wrote: View Post
Dave,

You raise a good point, but the problem is the poor deluded bastards that think they are bad-asses and try to act as if they were, or even the passive aggressiveness that stems from thinking you are either martially or spiritually superior to others just because we wear white pajamas a couple of times a week. The inbetweeness of Aikido helps to fuel these delusions and misconceptions.

regards,
Daniel
One does not have to be a bad ass to be effective in self defence, Some of the kindest people I know are able to actually kill people without a thought, but don't....
As for the pyjamas, weeeell we couldn't do it naked could we now!! We could try the Sumotori method of dress, but I don't think the ladies would like it too much!! At least the dogi does give some protection from a sweaty armpit when your head is buried in it!!
 
Old 02-27-2011, 04:46 PM   #10
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
HI Tony
Welcome back, I have to agree with you on the IS/IP threads, but you don't want to get banned again.

My son would agree with you as I do, have you read his article on his blog " Aikido in MMA " .. He is not very good at breathing through his toes, odour eaters don't help much.....I asked him to try the power of ribbons ? ...You need to try the stern look Tony, that always puts the pony up the thugs. http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-blogs.blogspot.com/
Hello Henry, always good to hear your opinion as one of life's dinosaurs, I'm hoping I can join the club!! I keep practising my Phil Mitchell look but I can't help laughing at how ugly I look!!
Yes I enjoyed Riks bloggs as he is a credit to aikido, himself and his Father....
 
Old 02-27-2011, 04:46 PM   #11
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Good to see you back Tony.

When I read the training methodology you use it reminds me of my own approach. I may be PM-ing you to trade ideas.

In a recent seminar on "Aiki" in Toronto Shishida Shihan said that "Aikido is a MARTIAL art. That is the basics of basics." As a result I often find it hard to use the word Aikido to explain what we do in Shodokan when I compare it to the general understanding of the word. When I teach seminars I often start by saying that Tomiki learnt Daito Ryu at the time when he studied under Ueshiba M. This helps adds context to what comes next imho.

Regarding your question: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality? - In some ways yes, in some ways no. Since reality is constantly in flux so should the skills I focus on training imho. Adaptability is key to survival .

Hope you stick around for a while but it depends on the "Powers that be" to not be offended I guess.

Best
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
 
Old 02-27-2011, 05:21 PM   #12
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
Should a martial art be concerned with street effectiveness to be called a martial art?

How about kendo, kyudo, iaido, sumo?
Are these martial arts? I think yes.
Do these arts train to be effective on the street? I have no experience in any of these arts, but I think street effectiveness is not a major concern here.

Some martial arts are more concerned with street effectiveness. I guess kyokushin karate and systema would fall in this category.

My understanding is that aikido is somewhere in between.
Sumo is an art of grappling and the foreunner of all jujutsu.....
Iaido or iajutsu is drawing of the sword, dispatching your enemy as fast as possible, cleaning your blade and re sheathing it, which is a martial art form we cannot carry out in reality now. You would soon find yourself incarcerated if you did!! I practise it myself....
Kendo would be extremely painful without the armour and is a practical method of sword play without swords. However they do have a beneficial effect on ones jujutsu or in your case your aikido?
Kyudo is archery, but now more a form of meditation, so has no practical use other than to try to hit the target which is of secondary importance.....
That leaves us with judo and aikido, really one and the same arts derived from many hundreds of ryu of jujutsu, which were intended for self defence. We all know that all the arts were practised by the samurai, Some which lost there effectiveness during the Tokugawa isolation and the reawakening of effectiveness through Kano's judo and Mr Takeda's jujutsu, therefore put the two together and one has an hybrid art, which to some extent in my eyes is effective.
As for the new arts such as MMA, I personally think that is where the future lies for those who want self defence effectiveness, couple that with a good study of a joint locking art (aikido) and you can become quite formidable..... We need to reintroduce the atemi and newaza back into aikido and make use of it. It doesn't have to be taboo....
In my mind any grappling art should be effective for the modern world as we have no use for swords in a modern society, but we do need a good form of legitimate self defence, which is to take responsibility for ourselves, to stay healthy and be able to defend yourself, your family, and lastly society from harm. If we all did this I am sure there would be a lot more respect and mutual agreement in society as a whole....
 
Old 02-27-2011, 06:02 PM   #13
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
Good to see you back Tony.

When I read the training methodology you use it reminds me of my own approach. I may be PM-ing you to trade ideas.

In a recent seminar on "Aiki" in Toronto Shishida Shihan said that "Aikido is a MARTIAL art. That is the basics of basics." As a result I often find it hard to use the word Aikido to explain what we do in Shodokan when I compare it to the general understanding of the word. When I teach seminars I often start by saying that Tomiki learnt Daito Ryu at the time when he studied under Ueshiba M. This helps adds context to what comes next imho.

Regarding your question: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality? - In some ways yes, in some ways no. Since reality is constantly in flux so should the skills I focus on training imho. Adaptability is key to survival .

Hope you stick around for a while but it depends on the "Powers that be" to not be offended I guess.

Best
LC
Hello Larry,
Always good to hear from a fellow Shodothug!! Ha ha
Simply all I do is teach atemi from boxing, karate and some wing chun I practised before I took up aikido, also the judo newaza I picked up over the years from practising judo when I felt like a roll....
I also teach how to get out of a newaza hold if you get stuck or run out of ideas or counters, it's cheating from a judo point of view but it works!! As you say adapt to your circumstance.
I had to or face getting owned!! Doesn't mean I always got away unscathed though.... In the dojo (competition) the adrenalin is there, but not so intense as when you are out in the deadly ha ha!!
I hate the dump afterwards as it always gives me a pain in the back (old injury). What I have leaned is how to channel that pump.... Breathe!! Focus.....
I still use a great duo exercise for Unsoku..... I have some old video tape of some kyu grades practising... You are welcome to it....

I personally think Tomiki Shihan taught a condensed form of aiki jujutsu in the koryu he put together with Ohba Sensei. I'm not sure of the exact history, but others like Eddy Wolput would be able to tell you more..... You only have to look at Nariyama Sensei performing, that is evident enough. I have never yet had the pleasure of meeting him yet, but his influence is quite widespread now, It was strange as when I saw some of the first video of him, I was struck by the methods he was using, they so mirrored my approach and practise methods.

I met Shishida Sensei some 15 - 20 years or more back now? Whilst I was still in the BAA, He's a very down to earth guy, unassuming and a scholar to boot, a very good technician and teacher....
I still meet up every year with Itsuo Haba Sensei, he still comes to visit me every year. I will be seeing him soon, as I will be returning the compliment....

Regards

Tony
 
Old 02-27-2011, 06:27 PM   #14
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Mike Kakin wrote: View Post
Look,
my father will agree with you, he used to fight a lot, not in the dojo.
when someone was making something insulting to him he will roll the ball back... and the game starts - then he used aikido to show that he is not weak.

i think that this is wrong, because it's not 1800 today, it's 2011, we have space tech and stuff, if some "baboon" finds you on his way, sometimes you can make an sad puppy face and he will leave you alone... aikido is about avoiding fights... sometimes the technique is in your head.
Well your father was right and wrong. My father always said never start a fight but make sure you can finish it.....
 
Old 02-27-2011, 06:30 PM   #15
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Mike Kakin wrote: View Post
Look,
my father will agree with you, he used to fight a lot, not in the dojo.
when someone was making something insulting to him he will roll the ball back... and the game starts - then he used aikido to show that he is not weak.

i think that this is wrong, because it's not 1800 today, it's 2011, we have space tech and stuff, if some "baboon" finds you on his way, sometimes you can make an sad puppy face and he will leave you alone... aikido is about avoiding fights... sometimes the technique is in your head.
Well maybe your father was right and wrong?
My father has always said never start a fight but make sure you can finish it..... He boxed as a young man.....
 
Old 02-27-2011, 06:52 PM   #16
Garth Jones
Dojo: Allegheny Aikido
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

I have trained hard in my study of aikido over the past 20+ years, but like Lynn, my aikido is certainly not up to Tony's street reality.

That being said, aikido has all kinds of positive influences on my life that have nothing to do with defending myself on the street. I am much calmer (and I was one pissed off teenager!), much harder to move off my center when dealing with people, and I have saved myself from serious injury a number of times when I've tripped and fell. Also, I have managed to reach the age of 44 without needing to defend myself on the street. That doesn't mean I won't be jumped tomorrow, but I do live in a fairly safe place, so the odds are pretty good.

That being said, my custom furniture shop is in a questionable neighborhood that does have some crime. Over the years I have had rather a number of drug addicts and weirdos wander into my shop, usually wanting to sell me some little tool that they have stolen. A rather soft 'thanks but no thanks' approach has worked very well. These folks live in the neighborhood and I want to deflect them without irritating them so they are not tempted to return when I'm gone to try and break in or just vandalize the place.

Tony said that we "need a good form of legitimate self defense." In the US that form of self defense must take in to account the very real possibility of being faced with one or more attackers carrying hand guns. Muggers, street thugs, punks who rob stores, etc. often commit their crimes with guns and that changes the self defense equation substantially. Much has been written on the topic of armed self defense - and I'm no expert. I just wanted to mention the issue.

If I were really worried about my safety at work, I would keep a shotgun in my shop and perhaps carry a concealed handgun (legal and very easy to do in Pennsylvania). And I would practice with the weapons as seriously as I have trained in aikido.

I hope this perspective is helpful,
Garth

PS Atemi is not taboo in my dojo or with my teachers and I've never, in 22 years of aikido, run into any senior person telling me that atemi was bad.
 
Old 02-27-2011, 07:30 PM   #17
Gorgeous George
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
all training is artifical.

So no, my Aikido is not up to reality.
Excellence.

QED
 
Old 02-27-2011, 07:52 PM   #18
Janet Rosen
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

I honed my street smarts as a kid in NY walking the streets and parks and riding the subways in the late 60s into early 70s when there was a lot of street crime - as a short girl/woman needed to be able to decide quickly whether to either become invisible or convey being invincible depending on the situation. Managed to scare a couple of folks with instinctive body language. Moved west and In the blighted, druggied Haight Ashbury of the mid 70s, did unarmed community street patrols and security at free concerts, and learned to jump in to break up drunken fights or stand next to a scared person waiting at a bus stop at night.
(Learned to use firearms, too....)
So jump forward 20 yrs to when I finally started training in aikido as a middle aged woman...I don't go to bars, I don't go looking for trouble...I never had ninja or badass fantasies and don't train explicitly for self-defense but I do train with martial intent/awareness and expect my aikido to be one more tool in an existing toolbox if its ever needed.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
 
Old 02-27-2011, 07:58 PM   #19
raul rodrigo
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

No, my aikido is not up to reality.
 
Old 02-27-2011, 08:32 PM   #20
Jonathan
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
As a Taxi Driver/Owner (cabbie) of 23 years experience I get more than my alloted share...When you consider that in the last ten years alone there have been around 40 murders of cabbies in the UK, plus countless thousands of assaults, most that go unrecorded..... It boggles the mind!!
Obviously, this is going to inform how you approach your martial training. What is true of you is not, however, true of everyone else. The potential for violence that may hang over cabbies in the UK doesn't necessarily hang over everbody else. Could your proximity to the threat of violence make you a little overly preoccupied with "making it real" in your training? Seems likely to me...

Quote:
Violence happens across the country on a regular basis, in every town, city, week in, week out.... so those of you that say or think it will probably "never happen to me" are so wrong!! The chances are sooner or later it will happen...... You have been lucky so far!!
I think this is going a bit far. It has been my experience that violence happens most often to those who are themselves violent. I don't go looking for fights and it is no surprise to me, then, that I never find one. I'm not lucky; generally speaking I just reap what I sow. And I am not unique in my experience. There are many people I know who are in their seventies and eighties who have never in all their life been violently accosted. At least in my world, these people represent the majority; they are not just the lucky few.

Quote:
When people come to me for aikido instruction, I give them a choice....
If you are only doing it for health, that's fine, but you will never achieve Shodan level. I make that a paramount requisite!! Most understand that....
Those that don't, either leave, or carry on knowing that, for them, Shodan level is out of reach unless they go through the pressure testing required for the level. Once Shodan level has been reached we have refresher sessions to make sure they keep 'alive' the 'reality sessions'
As Lynn has pointed out, no training is truly real. The best that any kind of training can do is approximate reality. The few guys I know who made brawling a way of life as younger men spent a lot of their time recovering from serious injury and are now permanently damaged. As "pressurized" as your training may be, it isn't truly real and can't be if you don't want to end up like the brawlers I know.

I don't disagree with high intensity training and training with a view to practical self-defense but there is more to martial training than whether or not you can put down all comers. You seem to have forgotten this...

Regards,

Jon.

"Iron sharpens iron; so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend."
 
Old 02-28-2011, 03:04 AM   #21
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Jonathan Hay wrote: View Post
Obviously, this is going to inform how you approach your martial training. What is true of you is not, however, true of everyone else. The potential for violence that may hang over cabbies in the UK doesn't necessarily hang over everbody else. Could your proximity to the threat of violence make you a little overly preoccupied with "making it real" in your training? Seems likely to me...

I think this is going a bit far. It has been my experience that violence happens most often to those who are themselves violent. I don't go looking for fights and it is no surprise to me, then, that I never find one. I'm not lucky; generally speaking I just reap what I sow. And I am not unique in my experience. There are many people I know who are in their seventies and eighties who have never in all their life been violently accosted. At least in my world, these people represent the majority; they are not just the lucky few.

As Lynn has pointed out, no training is truly real. The best that any kind of training can do is approximate reality. The few guys I know who made brawling a way of life as younger men spent a lot of their time recovering from serious injury and are now permanently damaged. As "pressurized" as your training may be, it isn't truly real and can't be if you don't want to end up like the brawlers I know.

I don't disagree with high intensity training and training with a view to practical self-defense but there is more to martial training than whether or not you can put down all comers. You seem to have forgotten this...

Regards,

Jon.
So every doorman is violent ? Every copper on the beat is violent? Every cabbie out risking his bacon on a Thursday, Friday, Saturday night is violent? I don't think so..... Are we there to put down all comers? I don't think so..... But we are realistic about our situations and through are training stay aware which does prevent many things from escalating.....
I suggest you read the post again.... if you are happy with what you do then who am I to suggest to you to do otherwise....?
If you prefer your type of training don't expect it to defend you if the need really arises. You would be surprised how people can change from being "friendly" to a deranged nut case in just a few seconds....
Doormen are trained to do this as part of their employment now.
Gone are the days when a bouncer would drag some trouble maker out of a nightclub and use the pebble dash wall for head restructuring as precursor to kicking the sh1t out of them......
You may never have been accosted in your life like this, so until you do you will never know will you.....?
You obviously live a very comfortable life where the risk is very low, So yes, my occupation is subject to violence and abuse as all those who work in A&E on those nights, and have to deal with all the blood, crap and drunkenness.....
Society doesn't like to look at it's problems but prefers to just sweep it under the carpet as it's an embarrassment to a modern society as a whole, but I see it every weekend......
That is why my aikido is like it is. It doesn't make me a violent person, if anything it has the opposite effect.....
 
Old 02-28-2011, 03:13 AM   #22
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
I honed my street smarts as a kid in NY walking the streets and parks and riding the subways in the late 60s into early 70s when there was a lot of street crime - as a short girl/woman needed to be able to decide quickly whether to either become invisible or convey being invincible depending on the situation. Managed to scare a couple of folks with instinctive body language. Moved west and In the blighted, druggied Haight Ashbury of the mid 70s, did unarmed community street patrols and security at free concerts, and learned to jump in to break up drunken fights or stand next to a scared person waiting at a bus stop at night.
(Learned to use firearms, too....)
So jump forward 20 yrs to when I finally started training in aikido as a middle aged woman...I don't go to bars, I don't go looking for trouble...I never had ninja or badass fantasies and don't train explicitly for self-defense but I do train with martial intent/awareness and expect my aikido to be one more tool in an existing toolbox if its ever needed.
Well done Janet!! ..... We cabbies generally remain invisible, but sometimes avoiding people high on something isn't always avoidable, I tend to look at body language and eyes as they are the tell tell signs......
 
Old 02-28-2011, 03:32 AM   #23
Hellis
Dojo: Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido
Location: Bracknell
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 604
England
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Hi Tony

I remember a few years back when I met a senior student of a ` softer` style. He told me he was on a tube train in London, he and his wife and two kids were seriously abused, bad mouthed and pushed back and forth by a gang of yobs...He admitted that he felt that he could not protect his family.....There was worse to come later when his wife gave him so much `pony` for all the Aikido practice nights and years he had neglected her and the home for this to happen....
I didn't like to ask if he had given them a stern look or had a polite chat with them.....

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/
 
Old 02-28-2011, 03:38 AM   #24
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
United Kingdom
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
Excellence.

QED
Especially Grahams......
 
Old 02-28-2011, 03:52 AM   #25
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
United Kingdom
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Hi Tony

I remember a few years back when I met a senior student of a ` softer` style. He told me he was on a tube train in London, he and his wife and two kids were seriously abused, bad mouthed and pushed back and forth by a gang of yobs...He admitted that he felt that he could not protect his family.....There was worse to come later when his wife gave him so much `pony` for all the Aikido practice nights and years he had neglected her and the home for this to happen....
I didn't like to ask if he had given them a stern look or had a polite chat with them.....

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/
Hello Henry, Hope your spirits are high.....

Would that be "Negative Aikido" with a big N? Maybe we should ask his wife to write a book on it ......
 

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