Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Budd Yuhasz wrote: Excellent, you've felt him and Shioda then?

Don't be a fool of course I've felt neither. This is an internet discussion forum, it's basically all armchair budo, all I'm interested in is talking about some things to do with the role of uke/nage and how it relates to 'internal' skills, i.e. the subject matter of this thread. I'm making no grand or sweeping statements, I have not sought to suggest that others are inferior to me and yet you seem to be attacking me for not answering your rather pointed questions, all indicating that I have done something offensive in your eyes.
Such sniping comments do not make me feel inclined to continue along this line of discussion.

Mike

Mike Haft wrote: Don't be a fool of course I've felt neither. This is an internet discussion forum, it's basically all armchair budo, all I'm interested in is talking about some things to do with the role of uke/nage and how it relates to 'internal' skills, i.e. the subject matter of this thread.

Mike Haft wrote: I'm making no grand or sweeping statements

Mike Haft wrote: For example I was rather bemused to see Dan including Shioda in the list, a man so stiff I am often amazed he didn't break his own bones while executing techniques (though that probably says more about me than him).

This is your quote, correct? I asked for clarification on what you meant and how you made this assertion and got "Tohei" as my response. I've since asked for additional clarification and since both Tohei and Shioda are listed by others as having gotten somewhere with internal skills, I'm genuinely curious as to your basis for comparison. It looks like in another response you did clarify that you're basing this off of a video . . .

Mike Haft wrote: I have not sought to suggest that others are inferior to me and yet you seem to be attacking me for not answering your rather pointed questions, all indicating that I have done something offensive in your eyes. Such sniping comments do not make me feel inclined to continue along this line of discussion.

If I were attacking you, I'd be making a grand or sweeping statement regarding you or your abilities.

If you can't or won't answer questions regarding what you've written, that's fine, but please do not consider that an attack. I am genuinely interested in how, in as much detail as you are willing to share, you feel you are applying 'ki-development' and other 'internal skills' against 'resistance' within your training paradigm.

Guys
All due respect could you consider taking this to an active debate already underway that is relavent "Baseline skills."
Mike
I read the P.M. Why not talk about the training to create pathways and how it may relate to nage being uke?
Thanks
Dan

Interesting thread....Some folks are on the right track here...Personally with proper "Ukemi" and person has just as good a chance to prevail in an ecounter In our Aikido one's technique and spirit can only really progress with proper Ukemi. it is one side of the same coin.

Met many a Koryu master in my day too... In fact this weekend I am attending a seminar of one of the finest Ninjitsu Sensei's in Europe who came to L.A. to teach our sister Ninjitsu class. When I glance over at him and his excellent technique I see only a slight differance and that lies mostly in the fact they wear black gi and tabi.

I would tell you who he is but only if you have the proper cool guy security clearance (or if I remember his name first LOL Getting Old!)

Thank you folks for the lively discussion.

William Hazen

Apologies. I'm interested in the notions that Shioda and Tohei trained their skills under the uke/nage model (and perhaps elsewhere) and how some are differentiating between them. I'm also interested in those that are training this paradigm today and finding that it leads to the "Baseline Skills" discussed in that other thread . . . which is where this discussion seems to be heading.

Dan Harden wrote: Guys All due respect could you consider taking this to an active debate already underway that is relavent "Baseline skills." Mike I read the P.M. Why not talk about the training to create pathways and how it may relate to nage being uke? Thanks Dan

Hi Dan,

I was trying to get it to stop hehe. Actually was thinking about describing something fun that we do from time to time round here. It's an interesting exercise, I'll probably try it out on Sunday with the biggest guy who trains with us and take notes on how best to describe it, perhaps it'll be interesting. You listening to this Jo?? Hope you fancy lots of nikyo on Sunday

Mike

Mike Haft wrote: Actually was thinking about describing something fun that we do from time to time round here. It's an interesting exercise, I'll probably try it out on Sunday with the biggest guy who trains with us and take notes on how best to describe it, perhaps it'll be interesting. Mike

I must say in all sincerity that I look forward to hearing about this one.

Nikyo arm wrestling.

Well, tried it out and took some notes so here it is. The issue being discussed in this thread is the role of uke and nage, how it seems to have been reveresed in aikido from its koryu roots and that this reversal has alledgedly been detrimental to aikido's effectiveness.

So, further to what I was thinking before. Try this as an exercise. With you right hand hold your partners right wrist and they do likewise, the idea of this game is that you are both trying to apply nikyo to each other. It isn't about strength it's about technique, BUT, though it isn't about strength if your partner resists you then things become difficult. Seeing as the aim of the game is to nikyo the other guy and not get nikyo'd yourself they are of course going to resist you. Here's where the interesting part happens. If they use strength to resist and you have better mind and body coordination then you will be able to overcome them (I tried this last night on the biggest guy who trains with us and it seemed to work, be cautious though because if you resist your partner there eventually comes a moment where your resistance can simply crumble to nothing and if they are not careful the nikyo will be applied to your wrist really fast and hard, so be aware of that). A few tips to get the most out of this exercise (assuming you're still holding your partners right wrist), beginers attempt to apply nikyo by pushing straight down, this does not work on most people who offer even minor resistance. Next thing they do is try to extend their right hand towards their partner, this often causes their arm to straighten at the elbow and proves ineffective. Try instead to extend with both left and right hands and remember that nikyo is a circle. Crucially to do this you need to be centered and well grounded (as is described elsewhere, usually by Mike Sigman).

In this exercise there is no clear uke/nage role played. Nobody in particualr is receiving the technique, however many of the stories you read about O Sensei (i.e. asking Shioda to attack him on the train) involve this sort of thing (think Tenryu pushing on Ueshiba's head).

I'm of the opinion that excercises kinda like what I described above were probably more common pre-war. Later the role taken by O Sensei when teaching was one of demonstration, demonstraing the correct execution of a technique in front of a class of people, therefore he is the nage not the uke. Seems to make sense to me, I think that it was often this way even since Takeda and that you only got a feel of these things if you were closely associated with your teacher in such a way as the pre-war deshi were, note not the post-war deshi so much - in an interview with Chiba Sensei on aikidojournal he describes the content of lessons as an uchi-deshi as being the same to what was taught to the regular students onl you were expected to be more intense about it. Whereas there's the story of the pre-war deshi Hikitsuchi Sensei breaking the tip off of his bokken while practicing with Ueshiba and them both searching for it for a long time (it was in the folds of their clothing IRRC), sounds like there was a lot of coordinated resistance going on there.

I also think that much of what I described above with regards to the nkiyo thing was to do with ki but not aiki perhaps, in the sense that it was using Tohei style ki development to execute an effective technique. I think that when you watch videos of the founder and of Tohei and also listen to accounts of those who were uke for them they describe the difference between them very often as being that you really felt you had been thrown by Tohei but that when you attacked the founder it was often difficult to figure out what he had done. I tend to think of that difference as being the difference between ki (Tohei) and aiki(the founder). I suspect that this is what the founder was trying to teach for most of the last years of his life but that it is avery subtle skill and people mostly just didn't notice what it was he was doing. Kinda hard to fathom what's happening if you are the uke but have no idea how you ended up on the floor with this smiling old man looking down at you Couple that with his obscure use of shinto language and I think you might be seeing what I mean.

Would be nice to hear from people who have more experience of practicing with people around in 1960's early 1970's. At the very least you could tell me if I'm talking rubbish or not I'd kinda like to know if I am or not....

Regards

Mike

Thanks for posting the above.

Since you were talking about resistance while receiving, could you perhaps speak in some more detail about the kind of "resistance" you were playing with (e.g. jamming the technique, receiving it with the body and grounding it out, changing the line, etc.)?

I'm also curious as to how you're practicing, in this exercise, who initiates the grab, or if you start from a mutual grab, who initiates the nikkyo (senior/junior, both at same time, etc.)?

Budd Yuhasz wrote: Thanks for posting the above. Since you were talking about resistance while receiving, could you perhaps speak in some more detail about the kind of "resistance" you were playing with (e.g. jamming the technique, receiving it with the body and grounding it out, changing the line, etc.)? I'm also curious as to how you're practicing, in this exercise, who initiates the grab, or if you start from a mutual grab, who initiates the nikkyo (senior/junior, both at same time, etc.)?

There is no initiating the grab, it's not an attack/defense situation, both just hold and say ready steady go.

Play with as many different kinds of resistance as you can and see which works best and against which type of attempt your partner is making while applying nikyo. It's an exploration of the nikyo technique against resistance (meaning however you want to try to resist). Can be fun, just be aware that resistance has a tendency to vanish quickly once you're taken past your limit and then your partner needs the control to avoid slamming a really hard nikyo on you.

Personally I've found that keeping your hands low down close to your centre is the best way to resist your partner as it requires the least physical effort on your part. Though it also involves having a coordinated mind and body, and extending from your centre with both hands in this fashion tends to ground you whilst applying the technique (you often see similar things done in CMA demonstrations, I'm sure Mike Sigman will have a video link of something like it for us if we ask nicely...)

Like I said I'm mostly curious about the variability of the uke/nage role rather than the game itself, and what the odds of this sort of thing happening in regular training at certain times in the historical development of aikido. The nikyo game is just one example I thought of off the top of my head that migth illustrate it easily. Hikitsuchi Sensei's broken bokken mught be a better historical version of a similar training experience (only far far more impressive I might add...)

Regards

Mike

Mike,

I'd have to mimic, Dan, here. Can you open a new thread for this topic?

Mark Murray wrote: Mike, I'd have to mimic, Dan, here. Can you open a new thread for this topic?

Could do but I'm less interested in the actual exercise than I am in the uke/nage role so, while thread drift is a problem I still think it's part of the original discussion. Namely Ueshiba taking ukemi and the role of uke/nage in aikido. Not sure if it really should be in a thread of it's own... yet.

Mike

I think something that may be closer to this thread's topic is rather than choosing a technique and talking about variations on a game of "tag", speak specifically to the internal uke/nage dynamic within the parameters of a technique.

In other words, if I'm understanding the topic of this thread correctly and if you have to pick a technique, what are the internal things going on in order to correctly apply (nage) and receive (uke) a given technique within the aikido paradigm of uke/nage.

How are you using the uke/nage model to template, within yourself, the structural integrity to deal with the engergy you're given? By falling down? By absorbing it and sending it back? By letting it pass through you? Is a fall inevitable or is it a choice (or even an acknowledgement)?

Budd Yuhasz wrote: I think something that may be closer to this thread's topic is rather than choosing a technique and talking about variations on a game of "tag", speak specifically to the internal uke/nage dynamic within the parameters of a technique. In other words, if I'm understanding the topic of this thread correctly and if you have to pick a technique, what are the internal things going on in order to correctly apply (nage) and receive (uke) a given technique within the aikido paradigm of uke/nage. How are you using the uke/nage model to template, within yourself, the structural integrity to deal with the engergy you're given? By falling down? By absorbing it and sending it back? By letting it pass through you? Is a fall inevitable or is it a choice (or even an acknowledgement)?

Well all interesting questions. I'd ask some of my own by way of answering.
1. Can I come to an Aikido dojo and just be me?
2. My Idea of doing my Aikido is to be me and not do anything. So Can I get in my best white keikogi and show up and receive technique?
3. What happens if no one can do anything to me and I stand there?
4. Am I doing Aikido?
5. Am I taking Ukemi if in receiving Nage's technique nage is powerless to do anything to me because I absorb it and he is left with nothing?
6. Am I being Uke if I make a strike and nage is crushed by it?
7. What if he isn't crushed- but he can't do aynthihg to me and I am once again just standing there?
Am I still doing AIkido?
8. If it stops the attack of everyone in the room and I do it without harming anyone and do it with less visible effort than anyone there- what rank does that emulate? What is rank really worth then?
9. Ueshiba said "Everyone should do their own aikido." correct?
10. Define AIkido then?

Cheers
Dan

Dan Harden wrote: Well all interesting questions. I'd ask some of my own by way of answering. 1. Can I come to an Aikido dojo and just be me? 2. My Idea of doing my Aikido is to be me and not do anything. So Can I get in my best white keikogi and show up and receive technique? 3. What happens if no one can do anything to me and I stand there? 4. Am I doing Aikido? 5. Am I taking Ukemi if in receiving Nage's technique nage is powerless to do anything to me because I absorb it and he is left with nothing? 6. Am I being Uke if I make a strike and nage is crushed by it? 7. What if he isn't crushed- but he can't do aynthihg to me and I am once again just standing there? Am I still doing AIkido? 8. If it stops the attack of everyone in the room and I do it without harming anyone and do it with less visible effort than anyone there- what rank does that emulate? What is rank really worth then? 9. Ueshiba said "Everyone should do their own aikido." correct? 10. Define AIkido then? Cheers Dan

"All a black belt means is that you have the potential to be a good student"

Shoji Nishio Shihan

The answers to the rest of your questions are obvious... despite thier rhetorical provocation.

William Hazen

Dan,

Dan Harden wrote: Well all interesting questions. I'd ask some of my own by way of answering. 1. Can I come to an Aikido dojo and just be me? 2. My Idea of doing my Aikido is to be me and not do anything. So Can I get in my best white keikogi and show up and receive technique? 3. What happens if no one can do anything to me and I stand there? 4. Am I doing Aikido? 5. Am I taking Ukemi if in receiving Nage's technique nage is powerless to do anything to me because I absorb it and he is left with nothing? 6. Am I being Uke if I make a strike and nage is crushed by it? 7. What if he isn't crushed- but he can't do aynthihg to me and I am once again just standing there? Am I still doing AIkido? 8. If it stops the attack of everyone in the room and I do it without harming anyone and do it with less visible effort than anyone there- what rank does that emulate? What is rank really worth then? 9. Ueshiba said "Everyone should do their own aikido." correct? 10. Define AIkido then? Cheers Dan

It's not my style to say such a thing, but . . . every fifteen years or so I break form. This was a refreshingly well-formulated series of rhetorical questions. Thanks.

-ck

Dan Harden wrote: Well all interesting questions. I'd ask some of my own by way of answering. 1. Can I come to an Aikido dojo and just be me? 2. My Idea of doing my Aikido is to be me and not do anything. So Can I get in my best white keikogi and show up and receive technique? 3. What happens if no one can do anything to me and I stand there? 4. Am I doing Aikido? 5. Am I taking Ukemi if in receiving Nage's technique nage is powerless to do anything to me because I absorb it and he is left with nothing? 6. Am I being Uke if I make a strike and nage is crushed by it? 7. What if he isn't crushed- but he can't do aynthihg to me and I am once again just standing there? Am I still doing AIkido? 8. If it stops the attack of everyone in the room and I do it without harming anyone and do it with less visible effort than anyone there- what rank does that emulate? What is rank really worth then? 9. Ueshiba said "Everyone should do their own aikido." correct? 10. Define AIkido then? Cheers Dan

Love the questions.

But, we already have sort of a precedent for some of them. At the Friendship seminar, Ikeda sensei was there and I grabbed him. He didn't move but I was ineffective. And he was just being Ikeda sensei. Plus, I don't think anyone would question that Ikeda sensei is doing Aikido. So, yeah, I think your questions are valid and would be supported in a lot of venues in the Aikido world. Although, there would be political ramifications.

Where I think they might deviate is in a training situation. And that would be a whole different set of rules and procedures. Hmmm ... come to think of it, what if the waza is merely the physical way of showing how to use the internal stuff to affect uke's center? In other words, the physical techniques of Aikido show in a physical manner how to turn/rotate/roll/etc uke's center, but in reality, what should be happening is that tori's internal skills should be the vehicle that actually does turn/rotate/roll/etc uke's center?

Mark

Nice questions Dan! I concur with Mark Murray. The external movement should be a training tool, so if tori turns while grabbed, as an example, he could be grounding uke's force (at a minimum), and pushing off from the ground to execute turn. Totally unrelated, and a step up harder to do than any either in isolation.

Dan Harden wrote: Well all interesting questions. I'd ask some of my own by way of answering. 1. Can I come to an Aikido dojo and just be me? 2. My Idea of doing my Aikido is to be me and not do anything. So Can I get in my best white keikogi and show up and receive technique? 3. What happens if no one can do anything to me and I stand there? 4. Am I doing Aikido? 5. Am I taking Ukemi if in receiving Nage's technique nage is powerless to do anything to me because I absorb it and he is left with nothing? 6. Am I being Uke if I make a strike and nage is crushed by it? 7. What if he isn't crushed- but he can't do aynthihg to me and I am once again just standing there? Am I still doing AIkido? 8. If it stops the attack of everyone in the room and I do it without harming anyone and do it with less visible effort than anyone there- what rank does that emulate? What is rank really worth then? 9. Ueshiba said "Everyone should do their own aikido." correct? 10. Define AIkido then? Cheers Dan

Very thought-provoking questions! I really liked your other post on aiki/weapons/sparring/etc. Maybe some others for consideration:

1) Are you coming to the aikido dojo to teach or to learn (or maybe both)?

2) Do you have pre-established criteria for what is "useful" to learn that maybe you should share with the dojocho?

3) If no one can do anything to you and you stand there, are you training "with" them, or showing them what you've got?

4) What critieria are you using to define your practice of 'aikido' (ie. your understanding of what Ueshiba said or meant, the conventions at the particular dojo, some combination, etc.)?

5) Who can validly tell YOU that you aren't doing aikido?

6) What else is rank meant to define other than your relationship with your instructor/dojo?

7) In a given dojo, whose definition of aikido "matters"?

8) Under what circumstances are uke and nage meant to be static roles?

I think your confusing static testing of structure with moving with structure. moving with structure is without form. The form is created by the connection and will. It's why Ueshiba didn't look like taiji-he looked like the Japanese bujutsu he came from, and taiji folks express their structure their way. But its all structure.

Here's a thought that is congruent with Ellis and my ideas of what Ueshiba was doing- that morphed his DR into looking like Aikido.

If one is "moving" with structure and just being themselves-Aiki happens. Uke's doing the jumping falling. The connection is creating/morphing the waza. There is no "need" to stand still, there is no "need" to move either. Everything just happens.Ukes who have felt the pain and or the immovability of men with structure start to "respond" and act differently. Or I might argue- they act accordingly. In Ueshibas case they atarted to avoid him/it alltogether. In so doing-they-created the large, open, avoidence-circles we now call ukemi. But there are a plethera of responses to the same structure in men that look different. Takeda Ukes locked up and were drawn-in to his feet, not cast off. In todays venue you see Taiji guys bounced-out. Others examples I have seen may be when Judo guys try to throw me they act like Judo guys who cannot get Kuzushi they start to lock up or bounce off so they dump-out and change. A relaxed MMA guys "changes" and hits or knees to create a better opening. Aikido folks have a dilema in that they have zero input. No feedback and no energy to play with.
Incrementally increase the connections and results may change. Playing and low level attacks make the result look one way, more intense attacks and feints and rolling and banging looks different than that.
So the connected body creates no need to do anything because the attacks on it ,are at varying degrees, useless. So aiki-do becomes what?
1. Having structure and connecting while moving is Aikido
2. Or doing Aikido "waza" which isn't aikido and never was.
So just -who- is really doing Aikido in the first place?
And who can really be the judge?

And I say Ueshiba both knew and meant exactly what I am postulating. And said so. And it was-this-that was truly the defining difference between him and Takeda and what brought his "vision to fruition." What allowed him to control and cast off without harm VS capturing AIki that was more painful and damaging. But both-are aiki.
So to answer your question about playing Aiki-do in a dojo and training "with" people.
Isn't that what Ueshiba was doing?
When does my "playing" aiki-do require my falling down instead of you?
Only in trying to "do" waza.
Which isn't aiki-do in the first place.
So when is the man with better structure the real senior in the room after all.
What is Aikido
What is Aiki-do
And who is doing which in the first place?
Cheers
Dan

Budd Yuhasz wrote: Very thought-provoking questions! I really liked your other post on aiki/weapons/sparring/etc. Maybe some others for consideration: 1) Are you coming to the aikido dojo to teach or to learn (or maybe both)? 2) Do you have pre-established criteria for what is "useful" to learn that maybe you should share with the dojocho? 3) If no one can do anything to you and you stand there, are you training "with" them, or showing them what you've got? 4) What critieria are you using to define your practice of 'aikido' (ie. your understanding of what Ueshiba said or meant, the conventions at the particular dojo, some combination, etc.)? 5) Who can validly tell YOU that you aren't doing aikido? 6) What else is rank meant to define other than your relationship with your instructor/dojo? 7) In a given dojo, whose definition of aikido "matters"? 8) Under what circumstances are uke and nage meant to be static roles?

What vaule is rank other than your relationship to your teacher? Interesting! And it ties in with #5 and #7.
Who can define in any given Dojo whose definition of Aiki matters?

Well, Who is the real authority? The man with twenty years of sweat in training? Or the man who can be unmoved by the former's every attempt and yet move -him- around at will with Aiki? Expertise due to relaitionship? or skill?
"I don't look to authority for truth. I look to truth for authority."

Again who is really doing Aikido?
The masters of Aiki? Or the masters of early students response-driven ukemi-play that has, over time, solidified a method or corpus of training that was never the intent in the first place?
I hear the echo of a booming voice entering the Hombu shouting "This is not my Aikido!" And these days many times being written off as just the rantings of a cantakerous old man. When he in fact might have meant every, single, word.

So, is it in structure and the resultant aiki
Or the waza that is just a manifistation of the results.
I think its clear that the larger body of practitioners are just going through the motions and performing the later.

Cheers
Dan

Dan Harden wrote: A relaxed MMA guys "changes" and hits or knees to create a better opening. Aikido folks have a dilema in that they have zero input. No feedback and no energy to play with.

Sorry to just pick one part of an interesting post, but I think this statement you made contradicts itself and is basically wrong. MMA hits or knees to create a better opening is no different than Ueshiba saying "Aikido is 90% atemi" or whatever the exact quote was.

Aikido folks have zero input I also think is not true (I assume the input you were referring to was something alomng the lines of your aforementioned MMA knees etc). For some historical aspect to these things check out Pranin's article here:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article...ght=shomenuchi

Might be an interesting read. Not sure if you need to be a subscriber to read it or not.

Mike

Dan Harden wrote: Well, Who is the real authority? The man with twenty years of sweat in training? Or the man who can be unmoved by the former's every attempt and yet move -him- around at will with Aiki? Expertise due to relaitionship? or skill? "I don't look to authority for truth. I look to truth for authority."

I've got good kokyu and ki skills and I can control most people at whim. I don't resist anyone and I can release a lot of power. I have techniques that conform at both low and high levels with the core idea of "aiki" (which is NOT unique to Aikido, BTW). Am I going to go into a dojo and manipulate some sensei who doesn't have my ki and kokyu skills and then claim any authority in Aikido? No.

Having these skills does not make someone expert in Aikido. Personally I think (and this is what Tohei said, too) that you have to have these skills in order to really do Aikido. Having some of these skills (there is a wide spectrum of these skills) may give someone license to talk about the skills but it doesn't necessarily make them an authority in Aikido. I think we need to be clear about that.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Mike Haft wrote: Sorry to just pick one part of an interesting post, but I think this statement you made contradicts itself and is basically wrong. MMA hits or knees to create a better opening is no different than Ueshiba saying "Aikido is 90% atemi" or whatever the exact quote was. Aikido folks have zero input I also think is not true (I assume the input you were referring to was something alomng the lines of your aforementioned MMA knees etc). For some historical aspect to these things check out Pranin's article here: http://www.aikidojournal.com/article...ght=shomenuchi Might be an interesting read. Not sure if you need to be a subscriber to read it or not. Mike

Naw you missed it entirely, MIke. I'm a terrible writer.
I was only discussing the different ways some guys in different arts respond to structure. ONLY as an example was I offering a comparison between styles. Judo, MMA Aikido etc. Such as an MMA'er Standing outside the range and striking or kicking or moving in and kneeing you as a response to a diffictkly structure.
And I was stating the men with structure "offer" zero input to the aikidoka to then play with not aikido folks "having" zero input..

Dan

Mike Sigman wrote: I've got good kokyu and ki skills and I can control most people at whim. I don't resist anyone and I can release a lot of power. I have techniques that conform at both low and high levels with the core idea of "aiki" (which is NOT unique to Aikido, BTW). Am I going to go into a dojo and manipulate some sensei who doesn't have my ki and kokyu skills and then claim any authority in Aikido? No. Having these skills does not make someone expert in Aikido. Personally I think (and this is what Tohei said, too) that you have to have these skills in order to really do Aikido. Having some of these skills (there is a wide spectrum of these skills) may give someone license to talk about the skills but it doesn't necessarily make them an authority in Aikido. I think we need to be clear about that. Regards, Mike Sigman

Yeah but I am not stating that it is either and don't think that way. I'll leave out what I was leading to for now as I was hoping those IN Aikido would be offering their own answers.

Dan