Crazy Ki demonstration by Barrish Sensei

I also believe this is an interesting phenomena -- one not just related to Barrish and his students, but one that all instructors face or should face. Here, I am referring to that gap in skill cultivation that exists between teacher and student. The gap is always somewhat present no matter what one does or does not do. This is because at some level it has to be, as this is the very foundation of the teacher/student dichotomy. In other words, the teacher-student relationship kind of a priori assumes that a gap exists at the level of skill; the teacher knows more than the student -- hence the teacher is the teacher and the student is the student.

This is true at even a very mundane level. For example, look at the difference in body development in Barrish and in his students. Clearly, somewhere along the line, Barrish did some really hard physical training -- the kind of resistance training that would develop his body thusly. On the other hand, perhaps obviously, his students are not really being pressed in that direction. In general, I think this might be a product of a teacher/practitioner reaching a particular skill level, one from which they come to understand what is "key" to training or what simply "one cannot or should not do without."

As a result, though an instructor tended to do all kinds of things to get where they eventually got to, they end up mostly teaching on this "key" thing. For example, you get a guy that as a young man would spend hours swinging an axe or a sledgehammer, or even pulling tree trunks out of the ground, thereby reaching a point in the development of his physique where he is obviously the one capable of kicking sand in the face of others while at the beach, etc. But, a decade or two goes by, and somewhere in their training they realize that physical conditioning is not everything, that timing, or kokyu, or mushin, etc., is key -- key to applying things like a well-conditioned physique and/or anything else for that matter. As a result, rather than asking his students to girth up, he has them working on timing, or kokyu, or mushin, etc.
For some reasons, and sticking with this example, it tends not to occur to instructors that their understanding of timing, or kokyu, or mushin, even their insights into such things, is entirely dependent upon not only that well-conditioned physique but also that period of their life where having a well-conditioned physique held a more central place in their training. Elements that held primary places in their own training tend to be edited out for one reason or another when it comes to their students -- some reasons being positive, some reasons being negative. On the positive side, it could be that an instructor, in good faith, is trying to save "time" for a student by taking out what they have come to (mis)understand as wasteful or unnecessary. On the negative side, it could be that an instructor is no longer capable of such types of training (e.g. they could be old now or in poor health but still desire to be on the mat leading the way in all aspects of a given practice).

What is important to realize, in my opinion, is that art forms like Budo are about relating transformative processes to one's entire being. As a result, teaching and learning can never be so targeted. This is because being, to put it simply, refers to a whole -- not a part. As a result, if you aim for one thing, whether that is from either side of the cause and effect dialectic, you are going to miss more than you hit (if you hit it anything at all). When we are dealing with being, teaching, and learning, has to really be more of a natural process. As a result, regardless of how much our rational mind might be telling us that we can take something out, or how we over-emphasize this or that, the truth of the matter is that an instructor's skill level is a product of his being. As such, said skill level is a product of his/her entire history. Training then, in my opinion, needs to reflect that history itself as best it can.

Some instructors may understand this, such that if they have a background in a striking art, for example, since this will obviously provide a much-needed context in regards to Aikido maai, though they are doing Aikido now, they would still try to bring as much striking training into their Aikido curriculum as possible. Some instructors do not understand this, and thus if they are doing "Aikido" now -- THAT IS ALL THEY DO. When this happens, in my opinion, it is the responsibility of the student to learn what his/her teacher did all along the way, gaining that information from those little stories a teacher shares over a meal or drink, etc.

Sticking with this video, because it is a common reference point here, if you got one instructor that is obviously physically very strong, and you wish to follow his way, you might want to look into how that physical prowess was cultivated. You might want to do this NOT because you need to be as strong in general, as strong, or stronger, but because that was a part of his history, which makes up his being, which is part of the overall context for how he has come to understand and is thus able to perform things like timing, or kokyu, or mushin, etc. In other words, the true lesson might not at all be in the physical prowess, or in the timing, or the kokyu, or the mushin, but rather it is in that matrix that makes up a given being -- that matrix being a personal history.

dmv

So true David, so true... after all... what student these days wants to spend 6 months in horse stance, or do hard physical conditioning? In this day and age of instant gratification, it's "Show me the good stuff first"

Yes indeed, that is the flip side of it all, isn't it?

The way I see it, it's like building a house. You gotta start with a solid foundation. Everything else is just building blocks for building different things....

Yep... without the basics, the good stuff ain't gunna happen. It's ALL basic...

you know... i was looking at my hidden roots of aikido book today (which is about daito ryu, for folks who haven't run accross this book)... and some of the "aiki nage" techniques that are in there reminded me of some of the weirder stuff that berrish sensei is doing in this video. (as an aside, anyone have any thoughts on the relationship between aikinage and kokyunage?) i was also interested in the details of wrist movement in this regard, and the claims about unbalancing via them made in the book.

soooo... if his roots really are in some form of aikijutsu, might it be that some of this weirder stuff is explicable also in terms of those techniques? not to deny the possible ki/kokyu aspects at all... but could it be that some of what most seem to be feeling is weird (the ukes' seeming over-reaction, etc.) might be understood this way? i.e. he might be applying subtle pressure point locks, etc. that are hard to discern, as well as some strange aikinage style techniques, in addition to any control over the ki/kokyu aspects. or something.

Hello,

Well this ought to throw some people...Sorry for the pun.

I'm a licensed instructor of koryu jujutsu, Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu. I come from a tradition where full power attacks and resistence to technique is not only the norm but absolutely demanded. I confess that when I saw the video of Sensei Barrish years ago, I wrote it off as another example of conscious or unconscious collusion between a bizarre new age Aikido teacher and his naive awe struck students. This impression lasted for some time.

Years later, due to Shinto being a significant component of training in our school of koryu, I was compelled to contact Sensei Barrish to ask some questions after the death of my teacher Yukio Takamura Sensei. Importantly, I contacted Sensei Barrish not as a martial artist but in his capacity as a Shinto Priest associated with the Tsubaki Okami Yashiro in Mie prefecture. Still, I was rather suspicious of him, remembering that odd video I had seen so many years prior. I traveled up to Granite Falls, Wa. and the Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja with a Japanese employee of mine, Kozue Miyamoto. The grounds are as stunningly beautiful as reported. The man I met there was not what I expected. I found Sensei Barrish to be a gentleman and an individual unique in his devotion to Shrine Shinto and its availability to those in the US. We talked at length about esoteric Shinto and its influence in TSYR. Afterwards I decided to invite him to our headquaters dojo in Colorado to perform our summer Oharai at the end of our annual instructors workshop. I continue to do this every year.

This past September I made an extended visit to the shrine to seek opinions and historical perspective on some of the more esoteric Shinto exercises included in our mokuroku. I found sensei Barrish and his wife Chika-san to be uncompromising in their generosity and willingness to help answer my questions. It may be that I return to the Kannagara Jinja every year from now on as a sort of personal misogi.


So the point of all this verbage?

One afternoon during my visit, Sensei Barrish asked me if I'd like to observe his aikido class. I replied yes, while in the back of my mind recalling that rather bizarre video. Well as the class started, that video quickly faded from memory because what I witnessed that evening was very clean and crisp aikido utilizing excellent hyoshi, atemi, maai and kuzushi. Especially noticiable to me was Barrish Sensei's relaxed body and solid base. This aikido was actually quite different from that depicted on the video. Also of note was the fact that the students likewise demonstrated an impressive level of competence. Sensei Barrish can obviously both execute his aikido and teach it, an important distinction.

Now, What does this all mean? I guess it means that anything you see on video must be taken with a grain of salt. I've met people that on video that looked mediocre, but in the flesh were quite impressive. I've also experienced the opposite more times than I care to mention.

Another thing needs to be said. I have heard a lot of arguments through the years concerning who's really doing "Ueshiba's" aikido. Well, how many people out there teaching aikido are deeply involved in esoteric Shinto, train in Chinkon, get up at dawn, recite kotodama and perform real misogi......every day?

I only know of one.....

Is Barrish weird? Absolutely. But I say that knowing that I have devoted much of my life to maintaining an antiquated japanese martial tradition, outside Japan and totally out of step with the modern western world. I guess that make me kinda weird too.

Toby Threadgill wrote: Hello, Well this ought to throw some people...Sorry for the pun. I'm a licensed instructor of koryu jujutsu, Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu. I come from a tradition where full power attacks and resistence to technique is not only the norm but absolutely demanded. I confess that when I saw the video of Sensei Barrish years ago, I wrote it off as another example of conscious or unconscious collusion between a bizarre new age Aikido teacher and his naive awe struck students. This impression lasted for some time. Years later, due to Shinto being a significant component of training in our school of koryu, I was compelled to contact Sensei Barrish to ask some questions after the death of my teacher Yukio Takamura Sensei. Importantly, I contacted Sensei Barrish not as a martial artist but in his capacity as a Shinto Priest associated with the Tsubaki Okami Yashiro in Mie prefecture. Still, I was rather suspicious of him, remembering that odd video I had seen so many years prior. I traveled up to Granite Falls, Wa. and the Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja with a Japanese employee of mine, Kozue Miyamoto. The grounds are as stunningly beautiful as reported. The man I met there was not what I expected. I found Sensei Barrish to be a gentleman and an individual unique in his devotion to Shrine Shinto and its availability to those in the US. We talked at length about esoteric Shinto and its influence in TSYR. Afterwards I decided to invite him to our headquaters dojo in Colorado to perform our summer Oharai at the end of our annual instructors workshop. I continue to do this every year. This past September I made an extended visit to the shrine to seek opinions and historical perspective on some of the more esoteric Shinto exercises included in our mokuroku. I found sensei Barrish and his wife Chika-san to be uncompromising in their generosity and willingness to help answer my questions. It may be that I return to the Kannagara Jinja every year from now on as a sort of personal misogi. So the point of all this verbage? One afternoon during my visit, Sensei Barrish asked me if I'd like to observe his aikido class. I replied yes, while in the back of my mind recalling that rather bizarre video. Well as the class started, that video quickly faded from memory because what I witnessed that evening was very clean and crisp aikido utilizing excellent hyoshi, atemi, maai and kuzushi. Especially noticiable to me was Barrish Sensei's relaxed body and solid base. This aikido was actually quite different from that depicted on the video. Also of note was the fact that the students likewise demonstrated an impressive level of competence. Sensei Barrish can obviously both execute his aikido and teach it, an important distinction. Now, What does this all mean? I guess it means that anything you see on video must be taken with a grain of salt. I've met people that on video that looked mediocre, but in the flesh were quite impressive. I've also experienced the opposite more times than I care to mention. Another thing needs to be said. I have heard a lot of arguments through the years concerning who's really doing "Ueshiba's" aikido. Well, how many people out there teaching aikido are deeply involved in esoteric Shinto, train in Chinkon, get up at dawn, recite kotodama and perform real misogi......every day? I only know of one..... Is Barrish weird? Absolutely. But I say that knowing that I have devoted much of my life to maintaining an antiquated japanese martial tradition, outside Japan and totally out of step with the modern western world. I guess that make me kinda weird too.

Thank you Sensei. I think this is the post that we were all waiting for and confirms what some of us were thinking. What took you so long?
Best wishes,
Jorge Garcia

Jeff Miller wrote: you know... i was looking at my hidden roots of aikido book today (which is about daito ryu, for folks who haven't run across this book)... and some of the "aiki nage" techniques that are in there reminded me of some of the weirder stuff that Barrish sensei is doing in this video. (as an aside, anyone have any thoughts on the relationship between aikinage and kokyunage?) i was also interested in the details of wrist movement in this regard, and the claims about unbalancing via them made in the book. soooo... if his roots really are in some form of aikijutsu, might it be that some of this weirder stuff is explicable also in terms of those techniques? not to deny the possible ki/kokyu aspects at all... but could it be that some of what most seem to be feeling is weird (the ukes' seeming over-reaction, etc.) might be understood this way? i.e. he might be applying subtle pressure point locks, etc. that are hard to discern, as well as some strange aikinage style techniques, in addition to any control over the ki/kokyu aspects. or something.

Although this is not exactly the same, look at this and tell me you don't have the same feeling as when looking at the Barrish video. I have felt these techniques and can vouch for them. Some are very physical and real and the way they work is because of moves you can't see and a few secrets that are hard to see. They especially work the first time but after that, it is a possibility they wouldn't work because you already know how they are done. It is my feeling that in all martial arts, there are compliant ukes but some of these techniques come from a direct line through Kodo Horikawa from Sokaku Takeda. They aren't made up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvPEU9mAX5Y

Jorge

Hi Jorge,

What took me so long? I'm only an occasional lurker here. Not a regular.

It's interesting that you picked Roppokai's Seigo Okamoto as a comparison. I know Okamoto personally, consider him a friend and have felt his technique many times. His technique is definitely real and he has that "touch" but......his ukes frequently overact badly, actually making his waza look faked. I cannot for the life of me understand why his uke's do this sort of thing? It's bizarre. I suspect it is much the same with Barrish's uke's on the video in question.

FWIW.....Concerning two other topics brought up in earlier posts.

Barrish's adoption of the given name "Koichi".

Sensei Barrish is genuine Shinto Guji, head of the Tsubaki Grand Shrine of America, associated with the Tsubaki O Kami Yashiro in Mie prefecture, Japan. As such the adoption of a Japanese given name is pretty much required for someone in his position. Predictably, some people have occasionally questioned the veracity of Sensei Barrish being a Shinto Priest at all. It should be therefore noted that Sensei Barrish was the keynote speaker at the Ichi no Miya Kai's 2006 gathering in Japan. The Ichi no Miya Kai is an very prestigious Shinto organization open only to the #1 Shinto Shrines from each prefecture in Japan. An organization such as this asking Sensei Barrish to be their keynote speaker should end any such speculation about his legitiment position in Shrine Shinto.

And, as to Sensei Barrish's Aikido background

As I understand it from a very reliable source, Sensei Barrish first studied aikido under Rod Kobayashi, who trained under Koichi Tohei and Isao Takahashi. Kobayashi went on to found Seidokan Aikido.

Toby Threadgill wrote: One afternoon during my visit, Sensei Barrish asked me if I'd like to observe his aikido class. I replied yes, while in the back of my mind recalling that rather bizarre video. Well as the class started, that video quickly faded from memory because what I witnessed that evening was very clean and crisp aikido utilizing excellent hyoshi, atemi, maai and kuzushi. Especially noticiable to me was Barrish Sensei's relaxed body and solid base. This aikido was actually quite different from that depicted on the video. Also of note was the fact that the students likewise demonstrated an impressive level of competence. Sensei Barrish can obviously both execute his aikido and teach it, an important distinction.

I've only met Sensei Barrish on three occasions for Gossku (ceremony and weekend of training honoring O'sensei) and during those times he didn't not teach in the same fashion as he did in that video, it was as Toby was saying. I have also heard though that when Sensei Barrish began pursuing the Shinto Priest path that he stopped teaching Ki waza for some reason pertaining to that. However Sensei Kimbal a student of Barrish for the past 20 years and the next one down from Barrish does teach Ki waza similar to what is shown in the video and having experienced it I can say that its like any technique in that it is effective - and very fun because its always completely natural movement even for uke.

The first time I walked into the dojo and encountered it with Sensei Kimbal I was off course put off and thinking it looked very fake, but I was also intrigued because he seemed like a very no-nonsense type of guy and I could tell he knew how to move, so I stuck around. Years later I can say that every time I have experienced Ki waza with my Sensei I have always been serious in my attack and it has always been effective without me adding anything too it. But still I think it's just something you have to experience yourself to see any value in it.

Which brings me back to my original questions, is there anyone else out there who is taught or at least has any experienced with this?

I don't know much about ki. That video looked like a demonstration of excellent zanshin to me.

I like the vid. It is one way to train - and have fun, but not the only way. I agree with David V about the beginnings of techs. The guy is good and I'll bet he has a solid background, not a fluffy one.

Generally though, despite overly sensitive ukes ALL OF THE TIME, it is a very well put together vid and I like it. I believe, being a sensitive uke is an essential skill - but not the only one - to learning Aikido well.

At the end of the day, I think people can only believe aiki stuff if they have Ueshiba's face, or at least a very Japanese one.

David Valadez wrote: This is true at even a very mundane level. For example, look at the difference in body development in Barrish and in his students. Clearly, somewhere along the line, Barrish did some really hard physical training -- the kind of resistance training that would develop his body thusly. On the other hand, perhaps obviously, his students are not really being pressed in that direction. In general, I think this might be a product of a teacher/practitioner reaching a particular skill level, one from which they come to understand what is "key" to training or what simply "one cannot or should not do without." As a result, though an instructor tended to do all kinds of things to get where they eventually got to, they end up mostly teaching on this "key" thing. For example, you get a guy that as a young man would spend hours swinging an axe or a sledgehammer, or even pulling tree trunks out of the ground, thereby reaching a point in the development of his physique where he is obviously the one capable of kicking sand in the face of others while at the beach, etc. But, a decade or two goes by, and somewhere in their training they realize that physical conditioning is not everything, that timing, or kokyu, or mushin, etc., is key -- key to applying things like a well-conditioned physique and/or anything else for that matter. As a result, rather than asking his students to girth up, he has them working on timing, or kokyu, or mushin, etc. For some reasons, and sticking with this example, it tends not to occur to instructors that their understanding of timing, or kokyu, or mushin, even their insights into such things, is entirely dependent upon not only that well-conditioned physique but also that period of their life where having a well-conditioned physique held a more central place in their training. Elements that held primary places in their own training tend to be edited out for one reason or another when it comes to their students -- some reasons being positive, some reasons being negative. On the positive side, it could be that an instructor, in good faith, is trying to save "time" for a student by taking out what they have come to (mis)understand as wasteful or unnecessary. On the negative side, it could be that an instructor is no longer capable of such types of training (e.g. they could be old now or in poor health but still desire to be on the mat leading the way in all aspects of a given practice). dmv

I loved this bit of your post David,
it really strikes a chord with my own observations.

I guess I lied, gonna post one last time then you won't see my name until September.

I think there have been some interesting comments in this thread. I'm surprised to hear he's still teaching but I am glad to hear that he's gotten more substantive. I do, however, think that there are some rationalizations and misconceptions about what his ukes are doing.

Like I said, I saw him maybe a half dozen times around when this video was made and it was flop city. Everyone flopped for everyone and it wasn't skill doing it. I was throwing ukes like that and I don't even think I was a first kyu (I was 5th the first time I saw him). I'd say rather than sensitivity it was crazy insensitivity because everyone just fell like that no matter who did it. Reacting to every movement is just as insensitive as the guy you have to hit to get to move.

Now to what I wanted to say. I know a few people, like myself, but more experienced than I was, who didn't buy into it and stood there when he waved his finger expecting them to flip through the air (yes, it really was like that). I like to think that he looked at at those situations and asked why. Maybe he deliberately didn't throw people and they still fell. Who knows, but it sounds like something changed from then which I think is good.

I also find it interesting that he trained with Rod Kobayashi. I asked about that more than once and never got an answer from people who should have known. One of whom was ranked by him. Well, one mystery solved.

I'm out, again.

Christian Moses wrote: Sorry, I'm just not a fan of Larry, I know too much.

Ah, allow me to second this sentiment. Many years ago I had some interaction with him when he was here in LA to do a seminar at a friend's Aikido dojo. Granted, this must have been sometime in the late '80s. I'm sorry, but it was.... well, let's say.... inneffective. I say this knowing that it is a strong statement, and I imagine that some will react against it. But it was, flat out.... inneffective. (I changed the word I used so as not to be rude.) I was nidan at the time, and had been teaching for several years by then, so I had some experience. Most of the people who attended, walked off the mat, including s few of my students who were there. Sorry to say but he could do nothing with anyone who was not his personal uke, and his explanation was that - the others were not sensitive enough to feel his ki.

I then researched his background. There's a lot I could say about this but I won't bother. His -original- Aiki background is completely unsubstantiated, particularly the story that he inherited a family-style Aiki system from a Japanese family. The only one I know who can substantiate that is Don Angier because in his case it is of course, true.

I have never met anyone who actually started their practice with him, so I can't judge "what he produces" - I have only met or seen people who had studied Aikido before and then went over to him. That doesn't say much to me.

I think he's a curious phenomenon in Aikido, someone who is absolutely Brilliant at capitalizing on the things in the Aikido training world that are.... not healthy.

My goodness, there's hope for Aikido after all. I stand corrected. Nice posts and very helpful.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Well, like I said before I can't comment on twenty years ago, but I would like to clarify that when he's thrown me over the past few years, I wasn't falling to some sort of ki blast, but to solid technique delivered by a strong nage.

As for hyper-sensitive, just ask my wife, I don't qualify.

Cheers,

Paul

videos like this make me want to run a billion kilometers away from aikido

There's always worse:

Breakdancers #1

Breakdancers #2

Magic

Zeb Leonard wrote: videos like this make me want to run a billion kilometers away from aikido

That would put you way out, beyond Mars Zeb, it's pretty cold and lonely out there

I think there are useful things to be gained from watching the Barrish video, whereas Matthew's 'breakdancers' start to move into a whole different realm

regards,

Mark

yeah some good things. It's the tone of the thing that got to me and i was in a bastard mode that day (and i really hope someone doesn't link that to some spiritual discussion about training, ki and budo...)

Matthew Zsebik wrote: There's always worse: Breakdancers #1 Breakdancers #2 Magic

Oh man, it's been awhile since I've seen the Master Young videos, hilarious as always.

That magic one was new to me though! That was great! Had me laughing for awhile.

How about this one on Systema?

http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=-hO8yvA3cSE

Master Young- hmmm. Light tap and they fly all over the yard. THere was one on YouTube a while ago I think, where one of these so-called ki masters went up against a MMA guy and got the S**T kicked out of him. You can buy them books but some people just don't learn. As for the other video of the three-beware of guys wearing their belts outside their hakamas-and left hand swordsmen. I would have thought the noise level in the crowd would have been deafening with all the BS detectors going off (especially when he was rolling him around the mat with his "ki"- I would have definitely been rolling around too and LMAO).

I'd like to see a non-student doing a real attack and see what happens with these guys. I think the ki master I referred to was really shocked to find out his ki did not work as he was getting the crap knocked out of him and his lip bloodied.

John Riggs wrote: I'd like to see a non-student doing a real attack and see what happens with these guys. I think the ki master I referred to was really shocked to find out his ki did not work as he was getting the crap knocked out of him and his lip bloodied.

Because most of the guys who do the phoney ki/qi stuff are not used to doing any real fighting or sparring, they're often fairly weak and ineffective in their punches, etc. I've let some of them hit me as hard as they can in the stomach or chest and they were honestly shocked that I just stood there or that they bounced away. And I'm not saying that because I'm tough... that's how weak they were in reality. Yet they had let the fantasy play for so long in their own little punkin haids that they had come to believe their own spiel. Seriously. And it's not just Aikido and Tai Chi.... one of these guys was a godan in karate.

Mike