Black Belt????

Sonja McGough wrote: Or shouldn´t everybody (at least try and) act like a black belt?

Or indeed shouldn't black belts act like everyone else?

Sonja McGough wrote: How would you expect a black belt to act? Should there really be a difference between a shodan and a mudansha in behaviour And if so, what should be different? Or shouldn´t everybody (at least try and) act like a black belt?

Good point! Black belts (yudansha) should act even more humble than mudansha to set an example. Remember, "a beginner's mind". Yudansha knows better.

As a mudansha, it is desirable to act like a black belt, but as yudansha, it is expected. That is the difference. People aren't born knowing how to act. There is a time where you learn. Mudansha is that time. That way, when you DO strap it on, you already know, and can be immediately expected to act so. There is added responsibility at that level, both real and perceived. And it is where the learning really begins at yet another level. It's not starting over, but it's close.

Like Eric said, it's a lot like a Bachelor Degree. It takes people a different amount of time to get the same degree depending on your hours and other variables.

Like a Bachelors Degree, even when you get it you might not be able to do anything with it!

Ian Dodkins wrote: Thus, to answer your question; the time it takes you to get a black belt is the time it takes you detatch any importance to it as a belt.

Hi Ian,

Don't mean to be contentious here, but do you really think that the students you've graduated to shodan have detached all importance to it? I find that hard to believe. Perhaps they don't show any external attachment or they show less than they used to, but I suspect that they have strong emotional attachments to the outcome of the test (or to the fact that they've been selected to test if the outcome is a forgone conclusion).

I'm asking this not to be annoying, but to try to find what it is in fact that says to you (and others) that so and so is ready for his/her shodan. You can usually tell. You train with someone and say to yourself, ‘he's ready.' And there's usually an accompanying shift in attitude, but what exactly is that shift? Is it just confidence? The understanding that they've improved and belt or no belt, they know how good they are? That's when it's time to give them the belt? I don't have an answer, just trying to figure it out.

If relinquishing all attachment to the belt were a requirement, I'd still be an ikyu (and probably would be for life).

A 'black belt' is always the place where you meet your ego for the first time full blown. And, as the degrees grow, so do the full blown encounters. In gassho

Mathew Nowak wrote: How long does it ususally take to to get a black belt?

How long does it usually take to learn how to train?

Mark Uttech wrote: A 'black belt' is always the place where you meet your ego for the first time full blown. And, as the degrees grow, so do the full blown encounters. In gassho

I don't know what that means.

Michael Fooks wrote: I don't know what that means.

Old Zen saying - If you ask the question, you are not ready to receive the answer!

Hopefully Mark will expand, but my guess is that when you reach the level of 1st Dan you will inevitably come up against your own ego, probably in quite a profound way, issues of identity, responsibility, worthiness to name but a few. As you progress up the Dan ladder, these issues do not go away, in fact they are often in sharper focus, the lessons about your self/ego become ever more important. There is no place to hide.
This may be why some people give up aikido around black belt, it's a way of avoiding the inevitable having to face themselves.

Anyway that's my reading of it, how did I do Mark?

regards,

Mark

Not a bad description. Continuous training tries us, in many ways. It is the ego that wants to understand, after all. And for some, it is "Juken Jigoku" -a trip through hell.

i thought it meant the dyes from the belt and the constriction caused the person to act like an asshole... ;-))

Mark Freeman wrote: Old Zen saying - If you ask the question, you are not ready to receive the answer!

Old Kiwi saying - if no one knows what the hell you're talking about perhaps you're not being clear!

I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask how long it will take to get a black belt. Sho dan is not satori. You get there -- and what "there" is varries by teacher and association -- by working towards it, showing up, etc. I personally looked at the USAF guidelines a lot on my way to sho dan, and maybe I'm just a shallow person, but knowing that I had, say, 300 practice days to be minimally eligible for my next test helped get me out there on the mat, gave me a feeling of progress through those inevitable plateaus in learning. Sure, some things (like athletic talent, or a personal relationship with the sensei) can speed the process, and some things (injury, other commitments, having two left feet and a distractable brain, changing dojos, etc.) can slow the process.

So go ahead, set goals. Practice for practice's sake is all well and good, but why knock ambition? I think it's good to want to learn/develop/grow, and OK to want to have that learning acknowledged.

Geez.

Sonja McGough wrote: How would you expect a black belt to act? Should there really be a difference between a shodan and a mudansha in behaviour And if so, what should be different? Or shouldn´t everybody (at least try and) act like a black belt?

Ahem. I believe that how a black belt was supposed to act was covered in the Contagious Diseases in Aikido thread over in the Humor section.

John Matsushima wrote: 1. SHODANITIS.... DESCRIPTION: neurotic syndrome that occurs when a person gets a black belt and the next day he is teaching everyone how to "really" do the techniques correctly. SYMPTOMS: Excessive air coming from the main facial orfice. Frequent interruptions of practice to "help" you. TREATMENT: A good kick in the croch area

Doesn't seem like a good way to act at all.

Cheers,

Matt.

Eric Simmons wrote: I don't understand why martial artists feel the need to get defensive and/or smart when asked how long it takes to get a black belt. When someone wants to know how long it takes to get a bachelor's degree, we tell them generally 4 years, although it can vary, depending on the degree, how heavy your class load is, whether or not you pass all your classes, what school you attend, and what your degree is in. We don't smartly tell them that their goal should not be the degree itself but rather to learn their field, or that they can purchase a fake degree on ebay, or even tell them that a degree is just a piece of paper and in itself means nothing. But when asked about a black belt, we automatically assume the inquirer is an imbecile for even asking such a question and proceed to talk down to him. You can see from the poll posted on the subject, the general consensus seems to be anywhere from 3-6 years, so I suppose a good answer would be about four-and-a-half years, and of course it varies from place to place.

lol I completely agree.

IMHO, i believe that mitigating circumstances should be taken into account when dealing with dan test. It's a matter of taking the feelings of the student into account. To be worthy of testing for dan rank, one must put alot of effort and dedication into his/her training for a very long time. I think it's cruel to be denied what you've worked for so long to achieve (really it's not about the belt, but then again it doesn't hurt to have a sense of accomplishment) simply because of an injury or a misunderstand of the material. None of us are perfect and even my sensei doesn't have a problem speaking of his own flaws before and after becoming yudansha. If one is injured one should be given another chance. It's as simple as that. If one does not understand the technique due to disorders like Non-verbal Learning Disorder (NLD) Which make it difficult to comprehend the material in verbal form then that should be accounted for. The sensei should be made aware of these disabilities from the beginning however.

SORRY GUYS!! I posted on the wrong thread. Disregard this.

This type of thread reminds me of this classic story...

Matajuro Yagyu was the son of a famous swordsman. His father, believing that his son's work was too mediocre to anticipate mastership, disowned him.

So Matajuro went to Mount Futara and there found the famous swordsman Banzo. But Banzo confirmed the father's judgment. "You wish to learn swordsmanship under my guidance?" asked Banzo. "You cannot fulfill the requirements."

"But if I work hard, how many years will it take to become a master?" persisted the youth.

"The rest of your life," replied Banzo.

"I cannot wait that long," explained Matajuro. "I am willing to pass through any hardship if only you will teach me. If I become your devoted servant, how long might it be?"

"Oh, maybe ten years," Banzo relented.

"My father is getting old, and soon I must take care of him," continued Matajuro. "If I work far more intensively, how long would it take me?"

"Oh, maybe thirty years," said Banzo.

"Why is that?" asked Matajuro. "First you say ten and now thirty years. I will undergo any hardship to master this art in the shortest time!"

"Well," said Banzo, "in that case you will have to remain with me for seventy years. A man in such a hurry as you are to get results seldom learns quickly."

Mathew Nowak wrote: How long does it ususally take to to get a black belt?

1. A year.
2. A day.
3. A month.
4. 2-9 days depending on the shipment method.
5. 5 years.
6. 20 years.
7. 100 years.
8. Never.

All of these answers could be the answer to your question, but not all of them have the same outcome and affect.


bryce

At a students blackbelt grading the master asked the student "where will you be tomorrow if you pass and where will you be tomorrow if you fail ?" to which the student replied "Training" the master was impressed, the point Im trying to make is belts and gradings seem to have become the centre focus for most martial artist but the centre focus should be the training"The martial artist makes the grade not the grade makes the martial artist"

"The martial artist makes the grade not the grade makes the martial artist"

A good point, but sometimes having a grade does indeed make the person act differently, sometimes in a positive sense. A 'Black Belt' does not give you the 'skills' of a dan grade, but it 'might' just make you aware that you have certain responsibilities and obligations to your dojo, sempa, kohai and sensei...

Nick Simpson wrote: A good point, but sometimes having a grade does indeed make the person act differently, sometimes in a positive sense. A 'Black Belt' does not give you the 'skills' of a dan grade, but it 'might' just make you aware that you have certain responsibilities and obligations to your dojo, sempa, kohai and sensei...

Well Nick,
you hav now the same responsibilities and obligations as after grading,but you are not yet aware of them. Is it that what you are going to tell us?

Don't have your sensei told or you will never be admitted to test

Regards Dirk
(just 3rd kyu, i.e. no obligations at all)

Pardon? I was speaking theoretically, not using myself as an example Dirk. As far as I am aware, I am currently being allowed to test

you hav now the same responsibilities and obligations as after grading,but you are not yet aware of them. Is it that what you are going to tell us?

True in a way, however, after receiving Shodan more is expected of you as a senior student/yudansha and you have to strive to meet those standards, not just in the eyes of your sensei but in those of people from other dojo. As a yudansha you will be held to be a good representative of your sensei's dojo and if you dont perform/act with dignity...

...Mr T and chuck norris will come round and whup yo ass?!

Nick Simpson wrote: True in a way, however, after receiving Shodan more is expected of you as a senior student/yudansha and you have to strive to meet those standards, not just in the eyes of your sensei but in those of people from other dojo. As a yudansha you will be held to be a good representative of your sensei's dojo and if you dont perform/act with dignity...

I remember not long after passing my shodan test the only thing that toned down the enormous smile on my face was the heavy feeling of responsibility that seemed to decend from above to finally settle around my waist area. It is still there and I have learned to accommodate it, but it was a weird feeling at first.

regards
Mark