Non-Compliant Ukemi

Cady Goldfield wrote: Hm. Let me explain something now. I can "touch" you and immediately tap into your mechanics.

Cady, I can tell from the deeds you and Dan post that you're probably the greatest, etc., but 2 points:

(1.) I said you couldn't control my body, as you claimed, but maybe that was just a semantic error which you're too shy to admit to.

(2.) I'll be happy to bet you any amount of money you want that you can't "tap into my mechanics" because I doubt you have the skill or experience to do it. You name the amount; make it light on yourself.

I think Aikidoists would benefit greatly from getting a handle on the mechanics, but the full-blown mechanics are extensive and you can't get to the full-blown mechanics if you're limited by rudimentary body skills. It's part of the great debate between the "internal" and "external" proponents... nothing new. But the point I'd make is that I really don't think Aikidoists are going to be served by people who only hint at the basic skills through boasts of what they can do. Granted, I think Dan is stepping up a little more to the plate than he was before, but there's always room to improve and to help everyone else.


Regards,

Mike Sigman

Well, I have to admit that I probably can't control your bladder for you. But nobody's perfect.

Seriously, Mike, I didn't mean to imply "we bad," only that the art teaches these connections. It has taken me years to "get" what little I have, but the soundness of the mechanics exists and is in the curriculum of what we study.

Really... no joke. If you think you can touch me, grab me, etc., and can control me, it would be interesting to see. I'm willing to bet you anything you want to bet that you can't do it.

In fact, I'll bet that if that's sort of thing was all I wanted to focus on, I could teach most people to defeat your attempts easily in a weekend. However, there's more to this stuff and to Aikido particularly than just a few jin tricks. Knowing how to do these things is kewl and getting some aspects of internal strengths is necessary to do Aikido... but Aikido is more than just the common "secret strength". Aikido and many other Asian arts, without internal strength, is not correct... I completely agree; Internal strength without knowing Aikido, though, is not enough either. Same with Daito Ryu, Okinawan Karate, Bagua, Shaolin Long Fist, Taiji, and many other arts. Just playing "gotcha" with some basic knowledge of jin mechanics is a little on the childish side because it's an edge that can evaporate over a weekend.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

It's been surmised that Ueshiba had this set of mechanics, having trained extensively with Sokaku Takeda. (If you haven't read Stanley Pranin's book on Daito-ryu:Conversations with the Daito-ryu Masters", I recommend it.) The puzzle is why he did not make it part of the aikido curriculum.

But the mechanics themselves seem to go way back before the Japanese arts. Before I started what I'm doing, I got to experience some Chinese arts in which this stuff was evidently well ensconsed. I've always believed that China was the root and source, and that Japan adapted the concepts into its own fighting arts much later.

Cady Goldfield wrote: It's been surmised that Ueshiba had this set of mechanics, having trained extensively with Sokaku Takeda. (If you haven't read Stanley Pranin's book on Daito-ryu:Conversations with the Daito-ryu Masters", I recommend it.) The puzzle is why he did not make it part of the aikido curriculum.

Hi Cady:

I don't know precisely which approach Takeda used, but it's only part of a number of ways to approach these things. I somehow doubt that you or Dan really know exactly what approach Takeda used for training, either, to be honest. As I said, the sort of jin controls you're talking about are nice (and I consider them a positive step forward in the conversations), but there's more to it than that.

As far as I can tell, Ueshiba actually showed enough so that some of the deshi caught the hint, bolstered their understanding with outside stuff, etc., but he didn't "not tell everybody"... he simply didn't tell everybody and only told a few. If I were to go look at most Daito Ryu here in the US, I'll bet that my understanding of the mechanics is beyond the teachers... should I then weigh them down with personal brags about how much I know and how little they know??????? Not my style.

Your presumptions about who knows what could turn around very quickly, depending on what you know, Cady. Keep looking and quit talking so much. Maybe even discuss things so that everyone benefits rather than blowing-out like a cat to show everyone how big you are.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

LOL. I'll keep that in mind, Mike.

A real challenge! I was wondering when it would happen. If I were living nearby Mike I would have been to check him out ages ago. I have always been keen to visit those with skill. Sometimes I have been satisfied and have learned a lot, often, it has been a total waste of my time. Mike, if I were near you I'd already be there, if you were good I'd be with you, if not I'd have long since left. You certainly have a lot to say so I'd love to test you - in a friendly kind of way - because I really want to learn. So, if anyone is near Mike, go and test him out and report the results!!! Just keep it friendly ...

Mike Sigman wrote: Cady, I can tell from the deeds you and Dan post that you're probably the greatest, etc., but 2 points: (1.) I said you couldn't control my body, as you claimed, but maybe that was just a semantic error which you're too shy to admit to. (2.) I'll be happy to bet you any amount of money you want that you can't "tap into my mechanics" because I doubt you have the skill or experience to do it. You name the amount; make it light on yourself. I think Aikidoists would benefit greatly from getting a handle on the mechanics, but the full-blown mechanics are extensive and you can't get to the full-blown mechanics if you're limited by rudimentary body skills. It's part of the great debate between the "internal" and "external" proponents... nothing new. But the point I'd make is that I really don't think Aikidoists are going to be served by people who only hint at the basic skills through boasts of what they can do. Granted, I think Dan is stepping up a little more to the plate than he was before, but there's always room to improve and to help everyone else. Regards, Mike Sigman

And...

Really... no joke. If you think you can touch me, grab me, etc., and can control me, it would be interesting to see. I'm willing to bet you anything you want to bet that you can't do it. In fact, I'll bet that if that's sort of thing was all I wanted to focus on, I could teach most people to defeat your attempts easily in a weekend. However, there's more to this stuff and to Aikido particularly than just a few jin tricks. Knowing how to do these things is kewl and getting some aspects of internal strengths is necessary to do Aikido... but Aikido is more than just the common "secret strength". Aikido and many other Asian arts, without internal strength, is not correct... I completely agree; Internal strength without knowing Aikido, though, is not enough either. Same with Daito Ryu, Okinawan Karate, Bagua, Shaolin Long Fist, Taiji, and many other arts. Just playing "gotcha" with some basic knowledge of jin mechanics is a little on the childish side because it's an edge that can evaporate over a weekend. Regards, Mike Sigman

Rupert Atkinson wrote: If I were living nearby Mike I would have been to check him out ages ago. I have always been keen to visit those with skill.

I will seize control of your body, Rupert, and make you walk... I'll make you talk... I'll make you crawwwwwl on your belly like a reptile!!!! Oops... Wrong schtick. You know what this ki stuff does to yo little punkin haid if you're not careful!!!

Mike, if I were near you I'd already be there, if you were good I'd be with you, if not I'd have long since left. You certainly have a lot to say so I'd love to test you - in a friendly kind of way - because I really want to learn. So, if anyone is near Mike, go and test him out and report the results!!! Just keep it friendly ...

Yeah, well... I'm not all that good. Just a middlin' amateur. I know some really big dogs and when I compare what I can do to what they can do, all the brag leaves in a hurry. But if you get a chance, pop on by. I enjoy comparing notes and technical chatter.

Best.

Mike

Dennis Hooker wrote: I can state from personal experience sometimes when teaching a seminar I get an unfriendly uke or someone that thinks he has the right stuff. I got a couple of choices; 1, Go ahead and do the technique and to hell with safety 2, muddle through trying not to hurt the guy or 3 three just walk away. Usually the jerk has seen me do the technique on someone else so it is very easy to counter even if in a clumsy way.

While I have never taught a seminar, nor have I anything like the sort of experience of Dennis Sensei, and I am not Saotome Shihan nor do I play him on TV, I'd like to add something.

In regular general practice I encourage some of my students to resist me in a productive way so I can learn to improve my technique. That said I would regard someone who was my uke while demonstrating as being a bit uncouth to say the least if they decided to just shut everything down and try to become a black-hole in the tatami. Demonstration of a technique needs to be clear in order for students to follow whats going on to their advantage.

When being a demonstration uke for my teacher I rarely offer any resistance unless I know it is what he would want and expect, I can usually tell when he needs this because I've been his student for the last 10 years. If I've ever had any doubt as to the effectiveness of a particular aikido technique I have usually said (during the course of normal practice NOT while up in front of the class as his uke) something like 'Sensei, what if they held you a bit more like this? Wouldn't that be more difficult?'. The response is invariably something like: 'Yes, so don't let them hold you like that or if they do then do someithing like this...'

If someone were to get up in front of a large class and as a guest were invited to be my teachers uke and then decided to try to massage their own ego by resisting as much as possible then I would think less of them. I also usually look forward to seeing Sensei flatten them by changing the technique to something else they weren't expecting.

Resisting a given technique may be easy when you know whats coming. Resisting aikido makes a mess of the uke.

Mike

Mike Haft wrote: When being a demonstration uke for my teacher I rarely offer any resistance unless I know it is what he would want and expect, I can usually tell when he needs this because I've been his student for the last 10 years. If I've ever had any doubt as to the effectiveness of a particular aikido technique I have usually said (during the course of normal practice NOT while up in front of the class as his uke) something like 'Sensei, what if they held you a bit more like this? Wouldn't that be more difficult?'. The response is invariably something like: 'Yes, so don't let them hold you like that or if they do then do someithing like this...' If someone were to get up in front of a large class and as a guest were invited to be my teachers uke and then decided to try to massage their own ego by resisting as much as possible then I would think less of them. I also usually look forward to seeing Sensei flatten them by changing the technique to something else they weren't expecting. Resisting a given technique may be easy when you know whats coming. Resisting aikido makes a mess of the uke. Mike

Here's my problem with that. If Sensei is going to demonstrate a scenario with nearly no resistance, then this is how it should be practiced throughout the dojo. A former training partner of mine would do exactly as you describe when taking demonstration ukemi for my former Sensei, then once you bowed into him for keiko, would proceed to attack completely differently with full resistance and no momentum. I believe that if a technique is designed to be done with someone resisting, then it should be demonstrated as such and then practiced the same way. It's absurd for a room full of students to be attempting to reproduce what was displayed with a cooperative uke with resistant ones, the techniques will not work the same. Where I train now, we're often criticized for not being difficult enough when taking ukemi during demonstrations, and if anything I resist MORE when demonstrating with my teacher than with the other students, after all, it's my time to feel what's actually happening.

Christian Moses wrote: Here's my problem with that. If Sensei is going to demonstrate a scenario with nearly no resistance, then this is how it should be practiced throughout the dojo.

Er, at what point did I say that wasn't how it was done? If we're supposed to resist then when the teacher demonstrates he says so, if we're not he doesn't. That's how my teacher teaches and that's how I do too.

Perhaps I wasn't being crystal clear, but I thought it was obvious that resistance needs to spelled out as to when it is and isn't appropriate for the very reason you stated.

Mike

I would hope all techniques are intended to be done with resistance. I mean, people resist things they dont want to happen to them.

However, you should start with no resistance, then over the course of a few minutes add resistance. Its ridiculous to try to learn a brand new technique with resistance. Start compliant, get the movement down. After a couple minutes, start to resist, increase resistance, add counters, etc.

Don Magee wrote: I would hope all techniques are intended to be done with resistance. I mean, people resist things they dont want to happen to them. However, you should start with no resistance, then over the course of a few minutes add resistance. Its ridiculous to try to learn a brand new technique with resistance. Start compliant, get the movement down. After a couple minutes, start to resist, increase resistance, add counters, etc.

Pretty much the structure of our syllabus, first few kyu grades there's little resistance and its static painting by numbers sort of aikido, next few kyu grades more dynamic movement and more resistance when appropriate. Dan grades, watch out for the unlooked for thump if you leave yourself open and don't expect uke to be too cooperative

Mike

Mike Haft wrote: When being a demonstration uke for my teacher I rarely offer any resistance unless I know it is what he would want and expect,

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but I read this as saying that you rarely offer resistance during demonstrations with your teacher unless he's doing something special that would require resistance. Oui? Non?

Christian Moses wrote: Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but I read this as saying that you rarely offer resistance during demonstrations with your teacher unless he's doing something special that would require resistance. Oui? Non?

Pretty much yeah, depends on the situation, the class, who is present etc... I'm always cooperative when I'm a demonstration uke unless I know he wants me not to be. However sometimes cooperation involves resistance too

M

Ukemi should first be about learning to protect suki from exposure and your body from injury. Once you learn to do these things, you may then learn from the role of uke, ukemi being part of that role. Too often I see students training for 6-12 months that can't take sutemi or advanced ukemi. Students need to learn ukewaza skills in tandem with nagewaza skills to open their eyes about why ukewaza is important and how ukewaza applies to training. Bad ukemi is bad aikido, period.

Once basic ukemi skills exist, you may advance to the "non-compliant" uke. However, I have never seen a yudansha worth his salt that wasn't comfortable dealing with non-compliant uke. Of course, I have never seen a yudansha worth her salt that wasn't a good uke either.

Don Magee said

I would hope all techniques are intended to be done with resistance. I mean, people resist things they dont want to happen to them.

Rather than simple resistance, there was a 'trick' mentioned earlier in the thread. It is done by using the 'whole body' to thwart a force being applied by another - by isolating or separating them from their 'whole body'. If you haven't felt this from someone it's pretty cool. The 'unbendabe arm' is an example and training tool. However, just shutting down your training partner doesn't lend itself to learning anything.

I'm still hoping Dan Harden will comment.

david

Seems to me the idea of cooperative training in a kata sense (and demo from teacher) is to show the ideal of what the technique flow is like when balance breaking works (and this part is invisible anyway). So, IF the teacher can control the student perfectly at any and all times, he could not care much about how resistant the student is - but he also needs to show how the other party should act/react, so the uke has to at least learn to move (and in many cases fall) in a way commensurate with what a trained person might do, rather than a not very well trained stiff and strong person might do. If the teacher cannot for one or other reason completely control uke, then presuming they have some idea of the ideal of the technique (i.e., they know how to break the balance, but cannot get their body to do that reliably yet against a particular uke or at all times during a technique) then cooperation has to be agreed on to show the technique. depending on the class makeup and personality of the teacher, it doesn't have to be like that, but in most cases a hierarchy is pretty much defined.

When I say resistance, I do not mean you try to stop a technique. I mean you try to finish what your goal was in the first place. If my goal was to strike you, I throw my strike, attempt to retract my arm just like I would in real life and throw more strikes. All while moving in an intelligent manner, attempting to defend myself from attack (ie. not standing there with an exposed face so I can stop him from breaking my wrist grab, but realizing he could punch me in the face and taking measures to prevent that such as moving away from his free hand.) What I'm talking about is having a goal as uke other than taking the fall.

I don't want a to just grab a wrist, or throw a punch and leave it out there. I want to be alive. This requires a goal, such as attempting to strike your partner, or attempting to take him down with a clinch. This kind of drill allows me to repeatedly attack while he works his technique. Once either of us reaches our goal, we can reset. I find this kind of resistance training most valuable. I spend a lot of my time in bjj doing drills like this. I might start with my partner already in side control. My goal is to escape, his goal is to improve position or submit me. We reset back to side control when either of these two things happens. This allows for isolation with real movements and reactions.

You can't start there however, you need to have technique instruction first. Basically I'm talking about the I-Method

* Introduce: Demonstrate and explain the material being taught, let them drill it to get a basic understanding and put it static reps. (Traditional uke/tori relationship with no resistance beyond giving a proper single committed attack)
* Isolate: Work on the material in isolation, usually with drills or restricted sparring with progressively increasing resistance/difficulty. (Still uke/tori relationship, only this time uke is activly perusing a goal such as taking down tori, or striking, etc. This means uke will do more then the single committed attack, he will respond to the tori and attempt to stall his progress within the rules set down in the drill.)
* Intregrate: Have the students incorporate the material into their whole game, usually in free rolling/sparring. (Just what it says, playtime with randori, free sparing, whatever you want to call it. There is no real uke/tori relationship here. Just two or more people trying their best to subdue each other and thwart each other.

I believe that this progression is what adds authenticity to your training. It is important to have all three. I don't belive it is important to spend all your time equally in all three, just make sure time is spent in all three. For example, in bjj most of our time is spent in the thrid part, almost no time is spent in the first part. In judo, most of our time is spent in the first and second part, with very little time spent on the 3rd part (My instructor prefers drills and uchikomi over randori). Because we at some point each class do all 3 parts, we understand what is involved in actually doing what we are training to do. If you skip one of the three parts, or just do one of the three parts, you are losing authenticity and doing yourself a grave injustice in your training.

I'd like to refer you to this link for a little more detailed info on the I-method. I really think this is the goal of a good uke. To be compliant when needed and feel what is happening. To resist within a subsection of the technique when needed to allow the tori to learn how to deal with an alive attacker. And finally to attempt to become tori himself by countering and throwing his partner.

When an instructor is demonstrating a technique, he is usually at step one in the I-method. Resisting him takes you automatically to step two and gives no one any benefit. I think it is pointless to resist in a demo unless the instructor asks otherwise. However during drilling, all three phases need to play their course.

Don Magee wrote: When I say resistance, I do not mean you try to stop a technique. I mean you try to finish what your goal was in the first place.

Agreed.

Don Magee wrote: You can't start there however, you need to have technique instruction first. Basically I'm talking about the I-Method

Toby Threadgill has talked about the three types of training in TSYR as kata, oyowaza and randori. He basically described what you're calling the i-method. I would argue that (at least in western Aikido) most people train almost exclusively in a grey area between kata and oyowaza. But that's a whole ‘nother can o-worms…

Don Magee wrote: When an instructor is demonstrating a technique, he is usually at step one in the I-method. Resisting him takes you automatically to step two and gives no one any benefit. I think it is pointless to resist in a demo unless the instructor asks otherwise. However during drilling, all three phases need to play their course.

I would disagree here. By your own definition above, resistance isn't simply stopping a technique, but rather offering martial meaning to the attack. By that definition, I would say that resistance was critical in the kata phase of learning because without it, you are too far removed from any kind of lesson that will translate into oyowaza or randori. While kata is obviously cooperative, in that both parties are doing specific arranged movements, for the kata to have vitality and life there must be resistance otherwise the kata has no real meaning. As you mentioned above, resistance isn't messing with someone or trying to block their every movement, it's attempting to insert truth into an artificial event.

As you mentioned above, resistance isn't messing with someone or trying to block their every movement, it's attempting to insert truth into an artificial event.

- Christian Moses.

Ah, Christian, I believe you have stated the theme of the thread. Also, the theme of P. Goldsbury's column this month, of much discussion and debate between aikidoka and other martial artists. Dare I quote and old villain and ask "What is truth?" - snicker

david

Apropos all of that, and the subject of this thread: I just had a long conversatsion with Hal Sharp, one of the grand old men of American judo, who trained in Japan for the first half ofl the 1950's - and who has released a set of archival videos from that period through Rising Sun Videos. He was a member of the Kodokan kenkyusei - rip snorting, rugged young men whose only criteria of interest in the martial arts was what worked. When the elderly teachers drpped by to teach kata, they sighed and went along with it out of respect alone. Mr. Sharp said that one day Tomiki sensei came by and said he was going to show them something called aikido. Everybody sighed - "more kata." Mr. Sharp notes that Tomiki had wrist bones as big as golf balls. (HINT folks - bone density increases with torsion and winding of the muscles that puts torsion on the bones). Some people do this in solo training - is there anything in aikido, properly trained, that could provide an opportunity to develop this?
Tomiki stood up in front of the young guys, held out one hand in a "tegatana" and challenged one young guy to do whatever he liked to move him. NOTE: Not the unbendable arm, with the wrist resting on the other's shoulder, but just the arm out there. In other words, lock it, tug it, use it for leverage, whatever. Tomiki was unmovable. Then, with his one hand, he made a twisting movement and the guy, per Mr. Sharp when flying through the air yelling in pain. In other words, he either maintained the kokyu/jin/ground - whatever you guys want to call it - and in movement either locked him with one hand or caught him in just the right place. Mr. Sharp continued - "Every one of us wanted to have a try at him, but we all ended up in a heap the same way. Then Tomiki sensei said, 'This is too hard for you guys, and he sat down in a chair and did the same thing.' At the end, we all wanted to learn some aikido!"
A couple of points - Tomiki sensei, per Ohba sensei, his disciple, was ordinarily very reticent to show such stuff - but against these guys, he was quite able.
Next - how did he develop it. I mentioned this above - and either nobody noticed, or nobody who did chose to roll with it. " In addition, I believe that Ueshiba, pre-war,taught in a way that ukemi itself was a means of learning internal skills (Shioda describes Inoue continuing nikkyo long after he and Shirata were frantically tapping - I think this was all about teaching the redirection of forces through the body). Post-war?????"
In short, pre-war aikido was NOT about stepping out of the way and redirection of forces through the air.
So, aikido guys who are mad at Dan and Mike for keep mentioning this stuff, and Eric, who keeps trying to turn this into some kind of trigenometry that I can't make head or tail of. Guess you can be mad at Tomiki sensei for considering this his aikido as well. What a shame that he - and others - either didn't teach it, or nobody cared enough to notice.

Best

It ties in with the idea that the only way you can really learn the internal aspects of the arts, is to have them done to you; to take ukemi for them. And for a teacher to analyze what his student is doing wrong (or right), he must take ukemi for his student. It is a process that must be felt.

It's no mystery why some of the guys who had "stuff" never used the same uke twice for a principle-demonstrating technique at seminars, when they didn't want to give away their "secrets." The more uke gets to feel what you're doing, the better chance he has of figuring it out and doing it.

From all accounts of Ueshiba, he apparently was cagey about giving away what he knew of the deeper aspects of Daito-ryu. He would demonstrate "amazing feats," but his students (at least the post-WWII contingent) could never duplicate them nor figure out how their teacher was doing them.

Ellis Amdur wrote: Tomiki stood up in front of the young guys, held out one hand in a "tegatana" and challenged one young guy to do whatever he liked to move him. NOTE: Not the unbendable arm, with the wrist resting on the other's shoulder, but just the arm out there. In other words, lock it, tug it, use it for leverage, whatever. Tomiki was unmovable.

My, my. That's a pretty standard demonstration for "six directions power", BTW. Frankly, I'm beginning to get the feeling that there were a number of sources to this stuff floating around and Daito Ryu was only one source for Ueshiba and some of the others. I suspect that the higher-level guys probably discussed more amongst themselves, trading at a minimum stories of what they'd heard and seen, than we're aware of.

It appears now that Kano had more of this stuff (more of this keeps coming out nowadays) and so Tomiki's source could have been Kano, as well. Ueshiba certainly knew how to train for six-directions power because he demonstrated the jo-trick and he did a version of the same trick of "can't move my arm" using his bokken. So that could have been a source for Tomiki, too.

Well, it's only taken, what,... a half-century?... for people to start getting a clue about an important hound to chase.

Best.

Mike

How can O'sensei keep a secret by showing it?
If he show an "amazing feat" then is not secret anymore.
and the principles and mechanins of this "secret technique" are there, and he's showing them!!!
Maybe it's not that he kept them secret, but the specatators didn't "really see or understood" what he was showing.