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Old 11-25-2006, 05:39 PM   #1
DH
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Charlie
Gotts run so I'll be breig and get back tonight

Yes I am cleraly stating that the ukemi of judo and jujutsu and aikijujutsu and Aikido as commonly taught is wrong. Yes.

If you are allowed.... ask someone to fight instead of train with you.
Try attacking your opponent on the way down or over.
Try retainging retained pressures in your body where you bounce and keep the tensions more inside
Try taking them into a guard on the way down
When they lock you, absorb it, and head-butt them or kick them in the nuts.
Yes Charlie I can and do advocate training to be exceedingly dangerous when you are about to lose your balance.
This notion of these -wahoo- techniques being soooo dangerous you cannot take Ukemi is largely B.S. perpitrated on men with little skill to begin with.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 11-25-2006, 06:31 PM   #2
Mike Sigman
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
This notion of these -wahoo- techniques being soooo dangerous you cannot take Ukemi is largely B.S. perpitrated on men with little skill to begin with.
Fie on all those men with little skill!

Maybe you need to get around some people with real skill, Dan, because I know quite a few that'll have you on your butt in a blink. I remember Chen Xiao Wang doing a vertical ikkyo technique on me, so fast I couldn't react, that sent me straight up into the air (all 225 pounds of me) and then he flipped me over and brought me straight into the concrete of my garage floor.

All these tangents about ukemi are great, but I thought the original topic was more along the lines of ukemi approaches, not how "Real Men" (tm) don't need to worry about it.

Mike
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Old 11-25-2006, 06:47 PM   #3
Cady Goldfield
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Of course, Dan's strategem is not in keeping with the aikido philosophy and agenda, being that aikido is interpreted as being a non-combative art form. If aikido were to adopt combat in place of letting oneself be thrown, it would be counter to its design, as well as the tradition of uke and tori cooperating to make a technique come together.

Then again, it does sort of render moot the hard-slapping-the-ground issue. Except when one is slipping on ice or being thrown off a horse.
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Old 11-25-2006, 08:32 PM   #4
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
Of course, Dan's strategem is not in keeping with the aikido philosophy and agenda, being that aikido is interpreted as being a non-combative art form.
I see. Dan has trained you well.
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Old 11-25-2006, 08:38 PM   #5
Cady Goldfield
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

You consider aikido to be a combat art?
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Old 11-25-2006, 10:42 PM   #6
DH
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Fie on all those men with little skill!

Maybe you need to get around some people with real skill, Dan, because I know quite a few that'll have you on your butt in a blink. I remember Chen Xiao Wang doing a vertical ikkyo technique on me, so fast I couldn't react, that sent me straight up into the air (all 225 pounds of me) and then he flipped me over and brought me straight into the concrete of my garage floor.

All these tangents about ukemi are great, but I thought the original topic was more along the lines of ukemi approaches, not how "Real Men" (tm) don't need to worry about it.

Mike
I've no trouble with that Mike. Can't wait to feel it or see it to believe it. And more than happy to find it as well. And opinions be damned mine included. Just have to see it tried on a few guys I coud bring to the party.

Back to the topic though....I was specifically discussing the arts -I- outlined.....and -their- methods of the giving up all to save your own skin....ukemi. All in light of the JMA's supposed and oft quoted "oh so deadly techniques" you cannot receive them.

That is before -you- changed the subject to include the CMA.

And FWIW high end CMA at that. Care to see a number of mid level CMA players try that stick on mid level MMA guys not doing push hands but fighting and then run some statisitcs?

My argument stands on it own. Most men don't train to fully resist, don't train to fight back and don't even know what the hell it means when applied to their own arts because they don't train to specifically and in detail take aspart and deconstruct their own arts techniques in the first place. And further still they don't cross train. I had a lengthy discussion of this with a Koryu teacher who is out trying to fix it in Aikido. The only way to do so is to train to take it apart. NOT COOPERATE.
I don't see many of the throws, nor the principles in application to throw in the JMA as being all that "deadly" against a trained fighter, fighting back at full speed and intent. Then again, neither do most other guys in the MMA. Which is why they won't train standard JMA arts. For the most part.... they don't work on someone prepared for them. And with that, where do you see men taking "ukemi" in the ring against all out attacks and throws? They are more concerned with defeating the opponent.
Which brings me back to my first statement about training in methods to fully resist.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-25-2006 at 10:53 PM.
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Old 11-25-2006, 11:09 PM   #7
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Just wanted to be clear we were discussing two different topics within one. And while I appreciate the dig..."real men(tm)" have nothing to do with it. Neither does bravado. It is a training methodology that is ever increasingly being tried, tested, and proved. Trained, active resistence and set-ups, feints, and staccato attacks, along with detailed methods to take apart known arts apllied techniques was always the best way to test. It is hardly knew or innovative.
The complications involved with safety (yes it is a difficult balance) has warped our sense of what is real and what is at least real potential. And men are doing it without getting "wrecked" and damaged.

No bravado, or testosterone laden wannabes need apply. Its just more hard work. And that would go equally well for cooperative play junkies who enjoy "energy exchange."

Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-25-2006 at 11:15 PM.
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Old 11-26-2006, 06:20 PM   #8
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Hello Cady,
Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
Of course, Dan's strategem is not in keeping with the aikido philosophy and agenda, being that aikido is interpreted as being a non-combative art form. If aikido were to adopt combat in place of letting oneself be thrown, it would be counter to its design, as well as the tradition of uke and tori cooperating to make a technique come together.
That's not true of the "aikido philosophy and agenda", and more importantly, the aikido practice, that I pursue. Based on my experience with them, neither Saotome-, nor Ikeda-, nor Ushiro-sensei interpret aikido as a "non-combative art form". E.J. Harrison offers a good description of aikido as I study it: "Nevertheless I am aware that like karate aikido is considered almost solely as a fighting art, whereas nowadays the votaries of Kodokan judo are prone to lay much more stress upon judo as a high-class sport. In aikido there are no competitions. Grades are conferred upon the recipient on the basis of knowledge of techniques, style, and speed. These always correspond to real value in actual combat and to very great efficacy." ("The Fighting Spirit of Japan", Chapter 7, "Karate and Aikido", 1955; Overlook Press 1982 ed.)

Ikeda-sensei was in Boston a couple of weeks ago. Did you, Dan, or any of Dan's other students attend?

As far as ukemi goes, I have found Ellis Amdur's approach, as outlined in his video, "Ukemi from the Ground Up", to work well. It complements, without contradiction, what I have learned through ukemi for Saotome- and Ikeda-sensei, as well as others. Cooperation is not the same as collusion (which I abhor in myself and others) --- and I don't slap the ground unless I choose to do so.

See you (and Dan, I hope) on the mat eventually ---

Jim
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Old 11-26-2006, 06:54 PM   #9
Cady Goldfield
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Jim, do you -- as Dan describes -- ask someone to fight instead of train with you.
Try attacking your opponent on the way down or over.
Try retainging retained pressures in your body where you bounce and keep the tensions more inside
Try taking them into a guard on the way down
When they lock you, absorb it, and head-butt them or kick them in the nuts.
?

If so, that's great because it means you aren't just taking ukemi (whether rolling out or slapping mats!). It's possible to train this way with control and without wrecking each other.

I've just yet to see an aikido dojo that trains this way.

Here's the description of aikido posted on Ikeda's dojo website:

Aikido is not primarily a system of combat, but rather a means of self-cultivation and improvement. Aikido has no tournaments, competitions, contests, or "sparring." Instead, all aikido techniques are learned cooperatively at a pace commensurate with the abilities of each trainee. According to the founder, the goal of aikido is not the defeat of others, but the defeat of the negative characteristics which inhabit one's own mind and inhibit its functioning.

I still have my doubts about aikido being in any way a "system of combat." Especially when the description goes on to state that there is no "sparring" or way to test one's skill. Without actual combative practice, one never can cultivate the responses and proactive conditioning necessary to make one's skills practical and applicable in combat.

Cooperation does not make for adversarial conditions that emulate real-life confrontation. "Sparring" or at least stepped-up attacks -- hands-on application of technique under unpredictable conditions and stresses -- is crucial to conditioning. Furthermore, practioners must let themselves be confronted with increasing levels of aggression, beyond their present ability to handle it. Like weight-lifting, you have to "break down tissue to rebuild as something stronger."

If you want to condition for combat, you must train actively for it. Cooperative "exchange of energy" isn't going to cut it. This is something I have observed and practiced for 30 years, and for two decades before I met Dan. It's just basic combat sense.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 11-26-2006 at 06:59 PM.
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Old 11-26-2006, 07:37 PM   #10
DH
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Jim Writes
These always correspond to real value in actual combat and to very great efficacy

Jim
I'm pretty sure you and Cady.....are using a different definition of combatives. To be clear, when she said "combatives" I think she meant different things then you are prepared to discuss as normal in your regular training. Not saying good or bad- just methods and approaches.
For instance when Is the last time you punched someone square in the face in your dojo? Or even tried in a repeated fashion without let up when they were trying to enter-in.
Heck when was the last time you sincerely ....tried....to punch someone in the mouth for trying to joint lock you?

And since it is the standard shtick and written about and discussed "that aikido techniques are too dangerous not to take ukemi and can kill." Just what do you think you posses as a skill set that would cause me much "danger" at all were I to fight you?
I see guys go at it all the time in a very fast paced fashion with marginal injuries and none of it involves ukemi as done in AIkido. And the intent is far more dangerous then Aikido

For me "practicing ukemi is an entire discipline of recieving you while fighting. Not, let me be clear, ...NOT.....practicing falling down.
I'm not going to get into it on the net but there is a dynamic in the body, that changes you when you are not giving in but fighting back. It has to do with the effect of intent on the frame and connection. You will neither act the same or be perceived the same. And though I have heard many teachers blather about ukemi I've not heard many at all talk about what Intent and framing does to deconstruct the attack of the attacker.
Ukemi as I've seen it from 8th dans is for Martial arts dupes.

Rolls and breakfalls and such I show and make sure men have it, but that is about 5% of Ukemi. You practice to get them and burn them in. Then spend the rest of your days making dam sure it doesn't happen. There are a plethera of ways to receive, that do not Ever have breakfallin and rolling anywhere in the scheme of things. And most of which involve breaking the legs, kneeing, headbutting, and knocking out the other guy.
thats....uhm...combat effiiency.


On top of all of that there is a very detailed practice of receiving in a different way. Ways which men learn overtime with me. The real skills. But thats a whole different topic then ukemi.

And Ellis? I've spent some time in detailed discusions with Ellis about his ideas of Ukemi. I think you may be confusing his ideas for better "Aikido Ukemi" as opposed to his ideas for actual fighting.



Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-26-2006 at 07:51 PM.
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Old 11-26-2006, 08:24 PM   #11
Rupert Atkinson
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
For me "practicing ukemi is an entire discipline of recieving you while fighting. Not, let me be clear, ...NOT.....practicing falling down.
Dan
This sounds quite right to me. In Aikido we learn to love ukemi, maybe moving too much in the wrong direction. In Judo you never see pretty ukemi, but people do not get hurt even though they fall with twice the force, often with thrower landing on top to squish you down more. In an Aikido sense though, I separate it thus: Rolling around after the warm up is not ukemi, it is just rolling about. It only becomes ukemi if someone throws you. But if you decide or allow yourself to be thrown, that is not ukemi either. So, as Dan implies, it is only genuine ukemi if you don't intend to fall, i.e. you resist/fight/refuse to give in, and are thrown. However, I do think the Aikido type of ukemi as a give and take 'play' is of value to learning.

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Old 11-26-2006, 08:28 PM   #12
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
And Ellis? I've spent some time in detailed discusions with Ellis about his ideas of Ukemi. I think you may be confusing his ideas for better "Aikido Ukemi" as opposed to his ideas for actual fighting.



Dan
The original question of this thread quoted you, but it was about slap falling in Aikido practice. It was about whether slapping is more dangerous than not slapping, not whether slapping is silly because you should instead be tearing nage's throat out with your teeth on the way down.

The ideas you are presenting here sound sensible, if one is training for the purpose of becoming some kind of ultimate street warrior who can maim or kill trained fighters of whatever type. The problem is that I don't think this is the goal or purpose of the vast majority of Aikidoists. Aikido is a traditional martial art, the ultimate goals of which have been stated by O'Sensei and many disciples, usually similar to the quote from Ikeda's website, none of which sound like the kind of military training program you suggest.

Moreover, the style of "ukemi" you are advocating is simply not the way Aikido is practiced at most any place I've ever heard of, including O'Sensei's own dojo. What you are saying seems mostly irrelevant what most people here were trying to discuss.

I personally find the nuances of the falling technique aspect of Aikido to be the most fun and interesting part of the art. The training you describe does not sound interesting to me. As far as practicality goes, as others have reported, the aspect of ukemi that you are attempting to deride has saved me from several injurious falls in the past 12 years, whereas I have never been anywhere near a street fight.
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Old 11-26-2006, 08:29 PM   #13
Mike Sigman
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote:
This sounds quite right to me. In Aikido we learn to love ukemi, maybe moving too much in the wrong direction. In Judo you never see pretty ukemi, but people do not get hurt even though they fall with twice the force, often with thrower landing on top to squish you down more. In an Aikido sense though, I separate it thus: Rolling around after the warm up is not ukemi, it is just rolling about. It only becomes ukemi if someone throws you. But if you decide or allow yourself to be thrown, that is not ukemi either. So, as Dan implies, it is only genuine ukemi if you don't intend to fall, i.e. you resist/fight/refuse to give in, and are thrown. However, I do think the Aikido type of ukemi as a give and take 'play' is of value to learning.
I dunno... maybe that competition judo I did in the Marines was just pansy stuff, but there were many times where we practiced blocking and countering, etc., when we weren't perfecting specific throws. And "pretty ukemi".... maybe there's a mixup about what "ukemi" means, but it means more than just rolling. Yes, there are people who concentrate on "spiffy ukemi" who wouldn't know "martial" if it handed them a business card, but this broad brush about what "people in Aikido" do, is fairly offensive, IMO.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 11-26-2006, 08:30 PM   #14
DH
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote:
However, I do think the Aikido type of ukemi as a give and take 'play' is of value to learning.
Learning .......what?
Instead of saying ....Aikido.

Seriusly think about what you are learning....to...do....both Consciously and unconsciously....on both sides of the equation.

As opposed to what other options?

Cheers
Dan
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Old 11-26-2006, 08:36 PM   #15
DH
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

[/i]Yes, there are people who concentrate on "spiffy ukemi" who wouldn't know "martial" if it handed them a business card, but this broad brush about what "people in Aikido" do, is fairly offensive, IMO.[/i]


But it not Just aikido..Its the martial art shtick. The three card monty game of "I do this you, do that. But no hitting, no kicking,

Take away most of the rules and make it rougher and it still is safe. There was really nothing to fear. It's still fun- as thousands of guys are finding out all over the world in MMA.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-26-2006 at 08:39 PM.
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Old 11-26-2006, 08:48 PM   #16
Rupert Atkinson
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Maybe sutemi-waza is the result of what happens when you are falling, but don't really want to - one Judo teacher I had always told us never to take sutemi-waza as a choice. Actually, I really like sutemi-waza ...

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Old 11-26-2006, 09:24 PM   #17
Ellis Amdur
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Well, since my name came up. Hi guys. "Ukemi" means "receiving body" - not falling. Properly speaking, the uke role in traditional martial arts, whether jujutsu or kenjutsu, was done by the senior. His/her movements were to template skills in the tori (taker). To do this, s/he had to be able to counter what the junior did - whatever that was. So the uke loses by choice because he is "winning" throughout the kata. (The dilemma is that it is sometimes easy for the uke-teacher to manage the student. It is harder to manage them in a way that templates the exact lines they need to follow to actually improve. The teacher, in real ukemi, must be mindful of what the student needs to learn in each moment of the kata, even as s/he is keeping both parties (reasonably) safe and yet at the very edge of danger.
Aikido makes this type of practice a lot harder to accomplish because the practice is reciprocal.
Even in my "aikido ukemi," though, what I teach is that ukemi is all about counters - sutemi, reversals, and atemi. In its ideal, it should look like mat work on one's feet - without a tug of war or slap boxing, one should be able to go long passages without either leaving their feet. In this sense, with enough skill, when one "finally" takes a "fall" that doesn't go into a reversal, it would be the equivalent of tapping out when on the ground. The common type of aikido - the so-called cooperative style holds little interest for me, and in my role as consultant with the Itten Dojo, I've been trying to eliminate that.
So, on the one hand, I would say that my ideas on ukemi are congruent with Dan's (and therefore with Jimmy as well, as he likes my stuff), BUT there is a circumscription on methods of attack and defense within the classical aikido corpus - which I hew to when teaching aikido - which drastically limits how universal one's ukemi (countering/atemi/ skills) become.
BUT, this might be obviated with the proper training of "internal" skills - my theory is that Ueshiba was quite comfortable circumscribing things in the first place not because that he picked the most "moral//peaceful/harmonious/un-evil" techniqes (whatever the heck all that is), but because he believed that the techniques he finally established were sufficient when training "internally," to accomplish all he felt was needed. In addition, I believe that Ueshiba, pre-war,taught in a way that ukemi itself was a means of learning internal skills (Shioda describes Inoue continuing nikkyo long after he and Shirata were frantically tapping - I think this was all about teaching the redirection of forces through the body). Post-war?????
Best

Last edited by Ellis Amdur : 11-26-2006 at 09:30 PM.

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Old 11-26-2006, 09:52 PM   #18
Charlie
 
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Dan, if the whole "too dangerous" aspect is directed at my comment please be aware that I chose my words carefully for just the reasons that you present. Notice that I said some of the techniques not all of them and that I also added the caveat of "to their full potential". The potential of lethality is always present at the core level of some of the techniques that comprise Aikido.

I added these parameters because:
1. I am not saying all Aikido techniques fall into this category of lethality and
2. By no means am I suggesting that the techniques applied in any ole manner will further lead to this outcome.

I think it is fairly well documented that some/most of the techniques that comprise the technical make-up of Aikido are a derivative of Jujitsu forms. Many of these techniques at their core components are designed to be used against a soldier who may wearing some type of body armor or some other type of protection. Many of these techniques [if applied to their full potential] are designed to drive the combatant's skull right into the very battlefield itself.

However, whoever wants to use these techniques has to be able to perform them in this manner under certain duress and "not so perfect conditions" that is where there individual training formats come into play. Which manner is "more" correct or "more" efficient at reaching these means was debated back then and it continues until now.

Anyway, when you get to the sum of your commentary, you provide us with little golden nugget that you do in fact teach falls and rolling and that you consider these skills not to be the complete package of what you constitute good Ukemi skills. I hear you - this is all I was saying as well.

I am not advocating falling for the sake of falling or to position myself better for Nage or to even sacrifice position to "save my skin". All though that remains an option left open if need be just as one may sacrifice position by jumping guard.

Either way, most of the quality instructors in the world will usually state that to be truly proficient as Nage you have to master being uke and is precisely why I was trying to link comments made by you, Ellis and others. To me, many of the points made are all part of the same thinking just coming from different angles.

I can right off the top of my head think of a fight where a MMA fighter may have benefited from the low level skill of learning to fall and protect your head when I think back to a the Matt Hughes fight where he won the belt by knockout over Carlos Newton [both grapplers]. Matt didn't knock him out with a devastating blow with the fists but instead by almost being chocked out by Newton when Newton jumped his guard and caught him in a flying triangle. Newton was knocked out when Hughes started to collapse from being chocked out and bounced Newton's head of the canvas when he dropped him. If Newton had only remembered to tuck his chin he may have retained his belt.

Yes Cady, that is one way to practice falling there are others as well. To say that this is the only way seems to me to be quite limited in its approach. After all Ukemi needs to remain adaptive.

Cheers,

Charlie

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Old 11-26-2006, 10:37 PM   #19
DH
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Kevin

Lets not swing the pendulum to the end. What I was discussing has not to do with "biting him on the way down and being a crazed streetfighter." That's your own ideas rising. I remember talking about being more effecient once in fighting application and a guy said if he was worried about eiffiency he'd get a bomb. Can we see a middle ground?
True Ukemi is not falling down. As I said before it first comes from a fighting intent and not a receiving intent. and it is the intent that changes what your body is doing.
On an increasingly level once you learn to roll and breakfall that skill is there. So you fall off your horse , you fall off your bike, you fall down the stairs whatever. You got it.

That..has little to do with the martial arts. If you want to stop there and practice that for the rest of your life ...great. Don't read on

For the rest of us who choose to do martial arts there are measured goals that can and should increase incrementally.
The first and least of which is this falling down stuff.
This is actually a complex stubject that takes a chapter in a book to properly address.

But in simple external format consider the relationships with joint locks. You are spending time learning them. You are spending time learning to receive them without injury. Just simply learning to relax the body while in pain and under duress and to redirect the force...in you...to re-aquire and attack back is the better ukemi then taking a fall. The way you see locks done with this idea that you somehow then need to take ukemi gainst this thing they are doing to your arm to connect to your body is ridiculous. The ukemi as a response to it is now being wired into you. It simply isn't true and there are ways to train to nuetralize the locks and hide your center that should be given MORE time than learning to be a door mat for safety sake that should never come.There are better ways to learn to absorb and prevent these locks and in so doing? Make you a better martial artist.
Why is there no serious vested interest in teaching your students to incrementally stop you dead in your tracks?

The same goes for hip throws and absorptions of leg techniques -which really -in combination- are the superior ways to external throwing mechanics. Learning to use the energy coming at you to alter their path and leave you standing and them falling is where you need to be headed. Not learning to fall down at an off balance attempt. If you watch Ueshiba in video tell me where he needs to fall to learn? Tell me why you need to fall to learn?
If you watch Mifune's Aiki-judo, tell me where he needed to fall to learn? Shioda? Sagawa?
There is another way, a better way. It just doesn't fit in with a big structured school scenario. At a point in time you need to get on your own and rethink or at least start to think about what all the shtcik is really about.
Why isn't there just as much if not more time spent in teaching students to nuetralize all throws and stay standing there against all attempts. And taught to do so by a teacher willing to teach his students to stop him dead in his tracks? Then increasing the levels
And what it will do for you is to build a better structure and ....if you are truly concerned about safety and balance in life..it is a better structure to PREVENT falling down. So you learned to fall and roll, then you progressed to learning to relax, listen and absorb and redirect energy that resutls in you standing and them failing, then progressed into disrupting serious attempts to off-balanced you by those who can do so agressively. Inversely the guy applying is learning to feel active resistence in application with the startling disruption og getting hit hard and taking force while offering it. up to and including getting hit hard in the body and legs. Learning to get hit and to be relaxed and absrob and keep coming is ideal for ukemi.
From there if you like martial arts you learn to deliver punishment in many forms while maintaining everything you learned in the first three types of "receiving."
If the health aspects have merits in the discussion, it is by far the healthiest way to think about living free in the world and maintaining a zero, held balance and structure in any venue; working, with loads, animals, balancing in any venue and not surprisingly in fighting.
Away from all that there is body conditioning that surpasses all of the above which comes from another, concurrent type of solo, then resistance training.
That Mark is just the ukemi side of things. Rewiring the body to be fluid and move freely and not to lock up and isolate so locks and many throws become much more diffcult as your center is your and is hidden. As I said it first comes from a fighting intent and not a receiving intent. In a fighting sense, I haven't even raised the issue of fighting back yet.

In the fullness of time Men who train this way -even incrementally-(and there are more and more) -will always stand against those who train to fall and cooperate. It is just the way of it.
You might consider there are different ways to train.
But I'll settle for you reducing me to
a A. ruffian who bites people.
b. Who doesn't train safely

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-26-2006 at 10:50 PM.
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Old 11-26-2006, 10:55 PM   #20
Thomas Campbell
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
[snip]But I'll settle for you reducing me to a ruffian who bites people.
Cheers
Dan
Do you take a bite on your way down?

Seriously, though . . . in jujutsu training for falling, we worked not only to be able to absorb the impact of hard surface falls, but also to go for good position to escape or counter-attack--after landing. Going for the opponent while still in the air . . . well that's going to take presence of mind and well-honed technique, without removing the necessity to deal with the ground rapidly approaching. In the event that you are swept or thrown, especially if taken by surprise in the street (it's happened to me), it's going to take a high level of skill to respond with anything more than an instinctive protective fall response. Seems a worthwhile aspiration for training.
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Old 11-26-2006, 11:07 PM   #21
DH
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Thomas...not you too?


Still can't get folks to talk about any thing else but falling down. Training to fall makes the fear of falling deeply ingrained

Lets see.......yes.....we.....all.....fall......down....

Yes.....we....train....to.....fall.....down.....

Ok... NOW you have the rest of your life to think of some better ways to -not fall down- in the first place. To absorb incoming force so it cannot throw you...and ...kick the crap out of the guy trying do so.

Maybe you also might want to consider how many times you've seen guys try to throw men and failed to do so. Go think about it And make them fail more.

Ok... now all together


"What are you saying. What happens if I fall? Do you mean you don't trian to fall? I was thankful for ukemi I fell off a sidewalk once in the rain.....

I give up

Last edited by DH : 11-26-2006 at 11:14 PM.
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Old 11-26-2006, 11:12 PM   #22
Kevin Wilbanks
Location: Seattle/Southern Wisconsin
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Kevin

Lets not swing the pendulum to the end. What I was discussing has not to do with "biting him on the way down and being a crazed streetfighter." That's your own ideas rising. ...

In the fullness of time Men who train this way -even incrementally-(and there are more and more) -will always stand against those who train to fall and cooperate. It is just the way of it.
But I'll settle for you reducing me to a ruffian who bites people.
Cheers
Dan
I don't think biting is much of a leap from specifics you cited - particularly head-butting, groin kicks, dragging them down into the guard. This stuff all sounds like good ass-kicking but nothing like standard Aikido training.

As for the rest, I still don't understand where you are coming from. What you are describing sounds like some kind of attempt to become invincible and god-like. Fighting aside, it doesn't sound to me like a healthy model of 'living free in the world', it sounds like some kind of compulsion or obsession with excellence. like extreme ambition applied to martial arts.

If that's your thing, make plenty of videos and perhaps I'll enjoy watching them. People who have such drives often accomplish impressive things. I like watching a Michael Jordan or a Muhammad Ali. I might even derive a little inspiration from their (or your) example, but I wouldn't want to be them. Any such figure that I have ever studied had an unhappy and unpleasant life by my standards, and seemed to be ultimately estranged from their friends, family and lovers. Obsession and egotism are expensive.

Personally, I like to take it easy and enjoy life. What drive I have toward excellence and recognition I channel into sculpting. For me Aikido is a different sort of endeavor. I have ambition for neither rank nor ass-kicking capability. I prefer to keep my ego out of it as much as possible. I am trying to approach it more in the vein of it doing me, as opposed to me doing it, and I am enjoying it much more than I ever did when I was all tangled up in trying to prove or accomplish something. As such, I find myself most interested in working on the craft of soft falling at this time. Maybe this will all change later. My reasons for doing Aikido and my perception of the benefits I derive from it have changed many times over the years.
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Old 11-26-2006, 11:35 PM   #23
Gernot Hassenpflug
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Little anecdote from my dojo. Abe Seiseki sensei doesn't do big throws. And it finally dawned on me that really, there isn't a particular need to actually throw. So he does an almost invisible movement, which takes center, and that is it. From there, anything else goes. People stand there waiting to be bodily thrown. But that's not the purpose of the exercise. Response is. He wants the other to do something once the center is taken: drop down and attack his leg, or otherwise respond, getting back center while continuing the attack. He asks people to do ushiro ukemi once they have responded, but the ukemi is up to the person, just practice in rolling, massage of the joints, the skin, overall loosening up. Not the result of the "technique".
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Old 11-27-2006, 02:47 AM   #24
Rupert Atkinson
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

In Takeda-ryu I was once told by a senior that you should fall down in posture. Their ukemi is not like that of Aikido. Some people did it like in Aikido, soft and flexible, but he had called me to one side aksing me to try a new way ...

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Old 11-27-2006, 07:47 AM   #25
NagaBaba
 
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Why isn't there just as much if not more time spent in teaching students to nuetralize all throws and stay standing there against all attempts. And taught to do so by a teacher willing to teach his students to stop him dead in his tracks? Then increasing the levels

And what it will do for you is to build a better structure and ....if you are truly concerned about safety and balance in life..it is a better structure to PREVENT falling down.

Dan
Hi Dan,
You don't practice aikido, do you? But still lecturing what aikidoka should and shouldn't do.....this is really pretentious. You have zero credibility.

Ppl who try to neutralize all throws become simply stiff and rigid. Aikido is about developing strong, flexible body that can generate power by focus and coordination all its elements. Rolling forward and backward is one of important tools in this process. It develops also special spirit of non-resistance in the moment of contact. This way of practice let student understand useless of competition, and change behavior of nage in the way, that attacker can't find any point that would use as a base to make a counter. That is a teaching of O sensei, he never taught how to neutralize throws, zero power and such strange concepts. He developed methodology that is adapted to aikido goals.

I believe that aikidoka are not interested to prove any superiority, so I agree that nobody can throw you, you can bit up all aikidoka in the world, particularly with weapons, aikido is useless for street fighting, and your teaching methods are the best.

Now you can quietly go to UFC, K1 or other more appropriate MMA activities, where ppl trying to prove it by fighting with each other. That will be perfect place for you.
cheers

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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