Daito Ryu, Yoshinkan, Taichi & Secrets

Dan Austin wrote: I'll let you and Mike get on with your lovefest, but this question always fascinates me. In America it's common to ask this on meeting someone, while in many other countries it's considered extremely rude. If you think about it, it's no less a "how shall I label you" question than asking everyone immediately what their ethnic background is. It really has no bearing on having a conversation about economics, current events, your last vacation, or your hobbies - unless of course you wish to assert your superior social status and imply that your opinions should therefore have more weight. On a basic human level, I have to agree that it's a fundamentally rude question to ask.

Odd you should say that, Dan. The way I was raised, it is considered an extremely rude question to ask someone. And I'm always surprised when someone just comes out and asks me. Unless of course it is some gold-digger in a singles bar.

But I'm glad to hear someone else suggest the idea that it's rude to inquire (unless of course you are on familiar terms and/or friends to some extent) boldly about someone's personal business. I'd begun to think I was some sort of atavism from Victorian times.

In case you get frustrated with the level of discourse, though, always remember the old saying: "The lord must really love the common man; he made so many of them."

Best.

Mike

Joseph Arriola wrote: But, I'm a bit tired of asking you to show your videos (push hands, sparring, staff, knife, 3 sectional staff, or for indications of your vast audience of believers). So, as an intermediate, how can you judge my skills if you are a beginner? Try not to be so insecure.

When Mike says he is a beginner he is not comparing himself to any US taiji teachers but to a handful of guys in China who have been training in taiji several hours a day since they were 6. I don't think any of them read this forum anyway so I don't think he has anything to worry about.

The reason he and other beginners like me (and I don't have anywhere close to the level of knowledge about taiji that Mike does) can judge your skills is that we have seen and felt people who are real taiji experts and it's obvious that you are not one of them. Your response to this is that your skills are so advanced that us mere mortals are simply unable to comprehend them. However, I am willing to bet that if the reaction to your videos had been more favorable that you would have had no problems with our qualifications to judge your skills. It is only because we did not rate them favorably that you suddenly have decided that we are unqualified to judge you.

Remember that you were the one who posted your videos on the internet and then came to this forum asking for comments on them. We didn't come to you asking to see your videos. When it turned out that those comments were not what you were expecting you got upset and told us that we don't know what we are talking about. If that's what you think then why do you continue to frequent this forum? Surely there must be other places you could go where people appreciate your skills as much as you do and will tell you the kinds of things you want to hear about your videos.

"What do you do"...I also don't like that question, I never know how to answer it, I do so much and in so many different ways.

I try really hard to not ask the question, but sometimes not asking it seems to be rude when having conversations with people on airplanes. I always try and ask it in a different way such as, so what do you do for your career or profession/trade.

My personal philosophy is it is wrong to assume that someone is defined by their career or profession. People are so much more than that.

Mike has secret knowledge eh...I can acknowledge that.

But, it would be nice to expand on his knowledge a bit. Especially if you want me to accept his "beginner's" critique of my skills.

I usually judge the veracity of a man's statements by his lifestyle, his occupation, his successes in life. But, I guess this is secret knowledge. If we were in court he would be asked "to swear under penalty of perjury". Sadly, this is the wild west internet where people can say anything they want and not back it up.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph Arriola wrote: I usually judge the veracity of a man's statements by his lifestyle, his occupation, his successes in life.

Oh, stoppit. You're on the verge of insulting a lot of people with that sort of off-topic elitism. Weren't you the one on the verge of running amok when you speciously began howling about "prejudice" against Pilipinos?

Is it possible to get back on topic? Drop some more pearls on us about Taiji and the "internal" mechanics. Once again, let me ask you what style of Taiji you claim to have studied for some many years. Certainly if you're going to expound on how your Kali is somehow "Tai Chi", you can support it something more tangible than the fact that you are a lawyer?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Joseph Arriola wrote: Mike has secret knowledge eh...I can acknowledge that. But, it would be nice to expand on his knowledge a bit. Especially if you want me to accept his "beginner's" critique of my skills. I usually judge the veracity of a man's statements by his lifestyle, his occupation, his successes in life. But, I guess this is secret knowledge. If we were in court he would be asked "to swear under penalty of perjury". Sadly, this is the wild west internet where people can say anything they want and not back it up. Sincerely Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

I don't think Mike's background, or just about anyone else who post's here on aikiweb's background is secret knowledge. We all have posting histories, where we have provided some personal details/knowledge etc, plus from the way someone discusses/explains etc online, you can gather some insight into what knowledge they posses/career etc.

If you are curious, just read through some older posts, or checkout the baseline skillset threads (all 50+ pages), and you can see some hints of what various posters know, or are prodding people in the right direction. Don't be some sort of internet stalker, but it is one way to track a changing understanding of knowledge in these skills (I can look back on my own experience over the years and see how its changed).

Mike, Rob, Dan, and various other people don't really play "buzzword bingo" when discussing these internal skills, and none of them really care about being any sort of grand pubah either. They are more concerned about what is at the core of these skills, any usually make any sort of judgment that they can in an online context in terms of how one explains how to generate/manipulate various forces within the body.

Now here is the wierd thing, to someone who might not be moving in a manner similar to Mike, Rob, Dan and others (some with CMA, some with JMA, and some with a mix) ; once they have had the chance to touch hands etc, even if they are using different vocabularly to express these concepts (or suddenly the exisiting vocabularly makes sense in why you do wha you do/the real purpose of various exercises), the way in which they explain it using simple terms changes. Its not like it is a secret code (the buzzword bingo i refered to), more the way in which they converse about them.

Id prefer to get back on topic discussing the skills/movement, rather than who someone trained with, or what they do.

Joseph wrote:

I usually judge the veracity of a man's statements by his lifestyle, his occupation, his successes in life

Sweet...so if I told you I as a ass kicking U.S. Army Infantry Airborne Ranger trained in 50 different ways to kill a man with bullets, knifes, and empty hand...then that would qualify me to be able to judge you martially?

Just asking....you seem to ignore my question I asked early concerning self defense. I assume you dismissed them as not interesting or not relevant to the conversation....

But since we are now dropping occupations as a qualification or judgement of a man's abilities, skills, knowledge or character....

On a serious note....

I personally have not found Mike to keep much of anything a secret...in fact the exact opposite. He has gone out of his way to share his knowledge with me.

One reason I have been so quiet with him lately is that I haven't exactly lived up to my end of the bargain as well as I should be on doing the exercises that he taught me to do to start getting on with this stuff.

Mike has been very forth coming with information, knowledge, and teaching.

Joseph Arriola wrote: I usually judge the veracity of a man's statements by his lifestyle, his occupation, his successes in life. But, I guess this is secret knowledge. If we were in court he would be asked "to swear under penalty of perjury". Sadly, this is the wild west internet where people can say anything they want and not back it up.

Well we certainly aren't in court, but aikiweb isn't exactly the wild west of the internet either. This isn't 4chan. People here post under their real names and many people have met and trained together in real life. Mike's met up with a lot of people on this forum and demonstrated his skills in person. Read through the archives.

In a court of law, jurors who are not domain experts have to judge conflicting testimony based on relatively brief exposure to a witness, so lifestyle issues often become a easy rule-of-thumb for credibility. Psychologists call this the fundamental attribution error. On the internet, you can actually judge someone's level of knowledge by the strengths of that person's arguments and counterarguments in a forum populated by domain experts.

I consider Mike a knowledgable source on taiji because the more I have learned about the art, the more I have been able to verify that his opinions are accurate. In contrast, I do not consider him a credible source on politics because I do not find his arguments on that subject at all compelling compared to what I have encountered elsewhere. However, neither of these judgements have anything to do with his lifestyle, personality, or choice of career. I have never met him and have no idea what he does for a living, nor do I consider that a particularly relevent matter in formulating these assessments.

Kevin Leavitt wrote: Joseph wrote: Sweet...so if I told you I as a ass kicking U.S. Army Infantry Airborne Ranger trained in 50 different ways to kill a man with bullets, knifes, and empty hand...then that would qualify me to be able to judge you martially? Just asking....you seem to ignore my question I asked early concerning self defense. I assume you dismissed them as not interesting or not relevant to the conversation.... But since we are now dropping occupations as a qualification or judgement of a man's abilities, skills, knowledge or character....

Kevin,

My personal view is that any man that "puts a roof over his family's head and food on their table is a "success" and a real man in my book.

So how do we determine who is real is real and who is not? If they have not accomplished the above, we are left with the following when it comes to real marital arts:

1) technique: Can the teacher fight. Can he beat
99% of those who walk in his doors. With his hands,
with his mind, with a telephone or pencil and paper;
can he take out his opponents?

2) conceptual: Can he apply his "success and
prosperity" in the ring, to his life. In other words,
does he put food on the table and a roof over the
heads of his family? Can he excel in his career? Is
he an expert in other areas? (e.g. the best flower
arranger, the best ditch digger, the best checker
player)

3) spiritual: Does he lead his life in the big and
the small? Is there contentment and the desire to
achieve, managed and balanced all throughout his life.
Does he see death as the natural progression of life?
Today, sadly "mastery" is a popularity contest. If
you get enough backers, who buy into "your" story, you
are dubbed a master. As such, I judge a person by the
generalized parameters set forth above.

You sir, I respect as a father, a husband, and as a leader of men.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Thanks for taking the time to explain further your position.

Jim McCoy wrote: Which makes me wonder why some still use the term "secret technique". It's not a very good secret if it's the foundation of an art that millions of people outside of your school are practicing.

Hopefully getting back on topic here....

I think the "secret" really has more to do with one's understanding of the principle and how to use it across a wide range of applications. For example, from Jim's original post, an understanding of Tohei's "Keep Weight Underside" principle (or a combination of Extend Ki, Keep Weight Underside, Keep One Point, etc.) could be applied to pull off that technique, trick, etc. Without feeling the person its hard to say what principles were at play.

Anyway, my point is this stuff is out there so I don't think the term secret can be applied. However, the most efficient way to ingrain (how one trains) and apply these principles is more the secret. I will say it is starting to look like one martial arts secret is another's basics. Aikido would do well to look at and train these things as basics so higher levels can be achieved by practitioners. Fortunately, some instructors are trying to do just that.

Best,
Tim Anderson

IMO...one of the secrets is taking what you know and "playing" with others.

"Quote: So your remarks about the aikido not crossing over
to other martial pursuits, etc. seems accurate to me as well." by the Wonderous Channel Dave Chesser agreeing with Ed. "Formosa Neijia Discussions on Google Groups"

In the mid 1960's Tohei first came over to the United States. He stopped in Hawaii and gave a demonstration. He asked if any members of the audience would like to participate in his demonstration.

This is quite remarkable because Tohei had to know he was taking a risk. He would be going against an unknown. He would be potentially going against someone who would not be compliant.

When Tohei made the challenge, a man in the audience pointed to a second man and said "he will accept your challenge". That second man was my teacher's teacher the legendary fighter of "death matches" Floro Villabrille.

Tohei did a technique and Villabrille countered the joint lock. Tohei then countered the counter. When the exhange was over, Villabrille asked "lets choose weapons and do it for real".

Tohei simply replied "Your technique is good".

Instead of the sectarianism that Dave talks about, back then, each martial artist knew how to blend to and adapt their methods. They knew and studied the other man's game until the other man's game was added to their arsenal.

Today, most are locked in their own boxes...pretending that others do not exist. Like Tohei, we must have the courage to make challenges to test our skills...to hone rather than rust.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph Arriola wrote: Today, most are locked in their own boxes...pretending that others do not exist. Like Tohei, we must have the courage to make challenges to test our skills...to hone rather than rust.

Chen Xiaowang workshop in San Francisco, Oct 4-5, 2008.
Contact: Tony Wong 415-378-8661

He does real Taiji.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Joe Arriola wrote:

When Tohei made the challenge, a man in the audience pointed to a second man and said "he will accept your challenge". That second man was my teacher's teacher the legendary fighter of "death matches" Floro Villabrille. Tohei did a technique and Villabrille countered the joint lock. Tohei then countered the counter. When the exhange was over, Villabrille asked "lets choose weapons and do it for real". Tohei simply replied "Your technique is good".

Wow, that story was what true ecumenism is about. Display technique, discuss technique, turn the spear (bu) that comes from anger, fear or pride. Allow all people respect and compliment their good points. An old Kungfu saying:

"Do not strike a man on an old wound or ridicule him about a past disgrace"

Who knows who might have won... Villabrille or Tohei. That they did not fight was a treasure to us all. If they collaborated, how much more of a treasure.

Mike Sigman wrote: Chen Xiaowang workshop in San Francisco, Oct 4-5, 2008. Contact: Tony Wong 415-378-8661 He does real Taiji. Regards, Mike Sigman

Folks,

Here is a tape of Chen Xiaowang. I wonder how much of this "you" want to learn:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aYtgIkJ5UE

Lots of pushing. Lots of disconnection. Do we see 4 ounces moving 2000 pounds? Can "they" use chin na (joint technique)? Can they cavity strike? Can they use the "one touch kill"?

How different is this from two 6th graders getting into a shoving match? Where is the finesse, the softness, the "empty force of qi"?

I put this tape up not to denigrate. I put this tape up simply to compare and contrast. Yes, I question "teachers, linages and mythology". We should all question. The analysis is important.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

I thought the expression was "4 ounces deflecting a thousand pounds"?

I really don't know anything about Taiji, but that is the expression as I heard it.

Best,
Ron

Joseph Arriola wrote: Folks, Here is a tape of Chen Xiaowang. I wonder how much of this "you" want to learn: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aYtgIkJ5UE Lots of pushing. Lots of disconnection. Do we see 4 ounces moving 2000 pounds? Can "they" use chin na (joint technique)? Can they cavity strike? Can they use the "one touch kill"? How different is this from two 6th graders getting into a shoving match? Where is the finesse, the softness, the "empty force of qi"? I put this tape up not to denigrate. I put this tape up simply to compare and contrast. Yes, I question "teachers, linages and mythology". We should all question. The analysis is important. Sincerely Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Actually in that video, I didn't see CXW (who I believe is the one in long sleaves) do much of anything, rather the other guy was pushing a lot.

Joseph Arriola wrote: Folks, Here is a tape of Chen Xiaowang. I wonder how much of this "you" want to learn: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aYtgIkJ5UE Lots of pushing. Lots of disconnection. Do we see 4 ounces moving 2000 pounds? Can "they" use chin na (joint technique)? Can they cavity strike? Can they use the "one touch kill"? We should all question. The analysis is important. Sincerely Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Perhaps we are seeing the whole rather than the particles within.
To separate or not to separate is not the real question. Perhaps the key question is when can we separate and when we cannot.

If you have stuck and caused an opponent to begin into a "path of action" however large or small, and if you have placed your body in a position that he cannot intentionally or accidentally hit you, then you are in control and you may choose whether to perform a sticky attack or a percussive strike that may first require a separation.

Surely we all do that is a freeform rondori or scrimmage.

Joseph Arriola wrote: I am a lawyer. I am married to a lawyer and I have two great kids. I have a bit of money in the bank and I have quite a properous life. You don't need to worry about me bamboozling the public.

I had to laugh.
I thought bamboozling was primarily what lawyers did for a living?

(Please learn to use the quote function properly, it will keep conversations clearer)

Joseph Arriola wrote: I usually judge the veracity of a man's statements by his lifestyle, his occupation, his successes in life.

Occupation?? for most people their occupation is undertaken to pay the bills. You some kind of bigot? (Rhetorical)
You can't even write properly.

Joseph Arriola wrote: ...But, if after you finish your tirade, some people are interested in coming to my classes and seminars great. Know...there is enough room for all of us. Obviously, you have your camp of believers. Though, I'm still kind of amazed given the fact you are a beginner. Here is another tape to analyze: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKJlPnQyeIE Can you see the Tai Chi Chuan here? Again, I prefer to talk with people who are interested in the analysis.

Stop messing with the floppy guy's arm.
He's in a seminar.
You just told him to relax, then proceeded to push him, jerk him and mess around with his arm.
He isn't even socially permitted to tense up much less resist your fumblings!

Did he get his money back?

Joseph Arriola wrote: Here is a tape of Chen Xiaowang. I wonder how much of this "you" want to learn: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aYtgIkJ5UE Lots of pushing. Lots of disconnection.

I've seen that video before, I really enjoyed it.
An real angry push-hands contest. CONTEST. Not drill, not training, not seminar.
One of the extremely rare instances of something actually contentious above beginner level.
Thanks for reposting that one.

Michael Douglas wrote: I've seen that video before, I really enjoyed it. An real angry push-hands contest. CONTEST. Not drill, not training, not seminar. One of the extremely rare instances of something actually contentious above beginner level. Thanks for reposting that one.

I don't know the specifics of the video but it looks like a simple demo to me, not a contest at all. Chen Xiaowang does not reply with his own attacks but simply invites the pushes and neutralizes them. Liao Bai is trying to find an opening for a straight-in push (you see in the beginning of the video Chen actually gestures and tells him what kind of attack to attempt: "two handed push, straight on the chest"), Liao tries several times quite powerfully, but cannot find any flaws in Chen's stance.

Haowen, what does someone shout at the end? I was wondering. (Maybe it's just "stop"?)

I had no idea Chen was suggesting the attack to try, I thought from the activity he was defending from a rather keen contender without himself making any offensive moves. It was certainly non-compliant if it was a demo.