New breed of Aikido

Romuel Villareal wrote: Hello again Amir. As you have yet to find any real criteria for the subject, am I correct to assume that you mean they are not doing aikido?

The video looks like some modern Jujutsu style, or Karate, and not so much like Aikido.

But, as I wrote previously, anyone can invent any new M.A. and use the term Aikido in it, and there is nothing that can be said against him, since the name is generic and I do not know of any definition (see another thread about this which failed measurably).

Amir

Yeah, to each his own. Thanks Amir.

But if I am the leader and I know it is not aikido, and the syllabus is more or less being influenced by say jujitsu, and still insisted on putting the name aikido, is this sort of intentionally misleading people or students? Because they know the club name has an aikido label, the unsuspected students honestly believe it is really aikido?

Well, they can do what they want to do for all I care. But are they not damaging the "generic" name of aikido as you call it? Because as you said, the video looks like some modern jujitsu or karate but not much of an aikido.

Wikipedia says, and please note the last sentence:

Aikido (合気道, aikidō?), is a Japanese martial art developed by Morihei Ueshiba as a synthesis of his martial studies, philosophy, and religious beliefs. Aikido is often translated as "the Way of unifying (with) life energy" [1] or as "the Way of harmonious spirit." [2] Ueshiba's goal was to create an art practitioners could use to defend themselves while also protecting their attacker from injury.

Aikido is primarily a grappling art in which attacks are neutralised with various types of throws or joint locks.[3] Aikido techniques are intended to be implemented after first blending with the motion of the attacker, so that the defender may redirect the attacker's momentum without directly opposing it, thus using minimum effort.

Aikido derives mainly from the martial art of Daitō-ryū Aiki-jūjutsu, but began to diverge from it in the late 1920s, partly due to Ueshiba's involvement with the Ōmoto-kyō religion. Many of Ueshiba's senior students have different approaches to aikido, depending on when they studied with him. Today, aikido is found all over the world in a number of styles, with a broad range of interpretation and emphasis. However, they all share techniques learned from Ueshiba and a caring for the well-being of the attacker.

Amir Krause wrote: anyone can invent any new M.A. and use the term Aikido in it, and there is nothing that can be said against him, since the name is generic and I do not know of any definition (see another thread about this which failed measurably). Amir

Many have done exactly this.

What they call Aikido is not what I call Aikido.

Ai-Ki-Dao.

It is a description and details what one is practicing towards.

If you believe it is just a name that is fine, you will never have Aikido you will just have techniques.

Maybe japan has to do something for this issue. Maybe they should do something like a copyright to the phrase "aikido". Uniting all the traditional aikido organizations like aikikai, yoshinkan etc. so that they can sue all the other group whose using the phrase aikido without the permission from the umbrella organization. Aikido became a part of Japanese culture so i think the Japanese government should support this suggestion especially that aikido is being taught to japanese police. Make it international law. I don't know if this is possible, i just thought about it. That way, misuse of the word aikido will be avoided. Like McDonald or Kentucky Fried Chicken, you cannot use it anywhere if you don't get a franchise.

What do you think aikiweb?

if you get a franchise to McDonald and Kentucky, you also have to make sure you meet the correct international standard to avoid destroying the name.

what do you think aikiweb?

Wikipedia says, and please note the last sentence: Aikido (合気道, aikidō?), is a Japanese martial art developed by Morihei Ueshiba as a synthesis of his martial studies, philosophy, and religious beliefs. Aikido is often translated as "the Way of unifying (with) life energy" [1] or as "the Way of harmonious spirit." [2] Ueshiba's goal was to create an art practitioners could use to defend themselves while also protecting their attacker from injury. Aikido is primarily a grappling art in which attacks are neutralised with various types of throws or joint locks.[3] Aikido techniques are intended to be implemented after first blending with the motion of the attacker, so that the defender may redirect the attacker's momentum without directly opposing it, thus using minimum effort. Aikido derives mainly from the martial art of Daitō-ryū Aiki-jūjutsu, but began to diverge from it in the late 1920s, partly due to Ueshiba's involvement with the Ōmoto-kyō religion. Many of Ueshiba's senior students have different approaches to aikido, depending on when they studied with him. Today, aikido is found all over the world in a number of styles, with a broad range of interpretation and emphasis. However, they all share techniques learned from Ueshiba and a caring for the well-being of the attacker.

Look at my first post in this thread (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...8&postcount=37) . The Wikipedia term is simply wrong. The name Aikido is not unique to M.A. derived from Ueshiba. As I explained in the links there, I myself learn Korindo Aikido which does not derive from Ueshiba, yet the M.A. I learn has every historical right to be called Aikido (again, look at the previous links for the explanation).

Of the definition above, I could only agree with:
"Aikido is primarily a grappling art in which attacks are neutralized with various types of throws or joint locks.[3] Aikido techniques are intended to be implemented after first blending with the motion of the attacker, so that the defender may redirect the attacker's momentum without directly opposing it, thus using minimum effort.".

Amir

Vincent Munoz wrote: Maybe japan has to do something for this issue. Maybe they should do something like a copyright to the phrase "aikido". Uniting all the traditional aikido organizations like aikikai, yoshinkan etc. so that they can sue all the other group whose using the phrase aikido without the permission from the umbrella organization. Aikido became a part of Japanese culture so i think the Japanese government should support this suggestion especially that aikido is being taught to japanese police. Make it international law. I don't know if this is possible, i just thought about it. That way, misuse of the word aikido will be avoided. Like McDonald or Kentucky Fried Chicken, you cannot use it anywhere if you don't get a franchise. What do you think aikiweb?

Look in the history of aikiweb, somebody suggested such an idea. And lots of people already explained to him the weaknesses and problems such concepts create. Not to speak of the simple fact that the term\name AIKIDO was defined by the Jpanese Dai-Nihon-Butokukai as a generic term first, and only later Ueshiba adopted the name for his M.A. and a while after him Hirai (Korindo Aikido founder, who was head of the term coining committee) adopted the name too.

The problem with such an idea, is it forces lots of politics and intervention into the M.A., making it impossible to innovate, and making personal feuds grow way beyond proportion:
The politics of who sets the criteria, and who examines they are withheld.
The handling of exceptions (such as Korindo Aikido).
The organizational system to allow new teachers to announce they teach the M.A. in question (what happens if there is a senior teacher in the same area who would not like competition? what if a teacher is disliked because he preferred to invite one Shihan and not another? )
This all leads to a corrupt and inefficient system, encouraging protection instead of quality.

Amir

Well actually if you look into the sub article on Aikido styles - Korindo aikido is addresed but in a wikipedia article the first few paragraphs are a general synopsis - not meant to cover every single nuance. To the vast majority of people Aikido does mean a line of transmission through Ueshiba.

Is Real Aikido aikido?

Daren Sims wrote: Many have done exactly this. What they call Aikido is not what I call Aikido. Ai-Ki-Dao. It is a description and details what one is practicing towards. If you believe it is just a name that is fine, you will never have Aikido you will just have techniques.

You can have the M.A. way if you are willing to accept it!

Not because of some meaning you (or I) attach to this or that name, but because you (or I) choose to follow a certain route.

It is not the name which is important, it is practicing with full mind and taking your practice back home with you, trying to act like you practice.

My teacher like to tell a story of a visitor to the enlightened Zen master:
Visitor to Master- "I am told you know were God resides".
Master (humbly) - "Yes"
Visitor - "Then why don't you tell your students ???"
Master - "I point my finger and show them, but they keep their looks at the tip of the finger"

The name is like the pointing finger - indication for a certain direction, not the direction itself.

Amir

Peter Rehse wrote: Is Real Aikido aikido?

We just had a long thread here trying to define Aikido. As far as I saw, it had only students of Ueshiba Aikido, yet they could not find a definition.

Without a definition, how can you make a clear and undisputable decision.

I could say the video does not look like Aikido to me, since I have not seen any "Aiki" in the video and all I saw was few crude Ju-Jutsu techniques, the like of which I have seen in many M.A. and quite a few of the solutions they presented were not in the Aikido "technical spirit" I have seen in other styles.
But, all the above only points to my own preferences, it does not point to some global definitive scientific distinction.
(And I refer only to the Video, since for all I know, the actual practice is totally different)

Amir

Rest assure Amir, it's the same as was quoted before - it's kata based.

I am just a little lost at this "generic" term here. I have a headache, and if I go to the drug store and ask for mefenamic acid, they could give me 10 different brands to choose from. Although they share the same active main ingredient, other sub-ingredients could be different from each brand. They are available in caplets or tablets. and at times ampules/vials in cases of injectables. I am talking about legitimate and expensive brands here.

But then there are also the same medicines (same brand) that are being counterfeited and being sold OTC, and could be very hard to tell from the original including packaging. The only difference is the active ingredient, it says 10mg on the box, but probably only contains 25% of the active ingredient.

Now going back to aikido as being generic, can it be called aikido even though it only contains a partial of the active ingredient? I guess so, but what if it does not have the active ingredient? What is the active ingredient in aikido? Is it harmony? Is it the Ueshiba bloodline?

Although Aikido is generic as it can be, IMHO the active ingredient should be identified, and probably put some measure into it. I dont know, I am just a student. Maybe somebody else out there can explore this subject further.

Maybe as Amir said said "Of the definition above, I could only agree with:
"Aikido is primarily a grappling art in which attacks are neutralized with various types of throws or joint locks.[3] Aikido techniques are intended to be implemented after first blending with the motion of the attacker, so that the defender may redirect the attacker's momentum without directly opposing it, thus using minimum effort.".

Could they be the active ingredient, that was not present in the subject video?

Amir said: Look at my first post in this thread (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...8&postcount=37) . The Wikipedia term is simply wrong. The name Aikido is not unique to M.A. derived from Ueshiba. As I explained in the links there, I myself learn Korindo Aikido which does not derive from Ueshiba, yet the M.A. I learn has every historical right to be called Aikido (again, look at the previous links for the explanation).

Aikido journal said from an interview with Gozo Shioda Kancho:
Shioda Sensei: Mr. Osawa commuted to the dojo. Mr. Tohei was a student at Keio University shortly before I left the dojo. He was practicing judo and two of his seniors, Mori, a captain of the Keio Judo Club at the time, and Umeda, a competitor in the student judo championships, were practicing at the Ueshiba dojo.

[By that time], Shigemi Yonekawa, Zenzaburo Akazawa, and all of the early uchideshi had to enter military service and so only the older people were left in the dojo. Mr. Minoru Hirai [founder of Korindo] was handling the office. Since the young people had disappeared, whenever Ueshiba Sensei was invited to give a demonstration, he would take Mr. Hirai with him and he established many contacts in this way. Apparently Hirai used to teach in Roppongi. (Gozo Shioda / Aiki News 93, Fall of 1992 / pg. 11).

I'm totally new to Korindo and have absolutely no idea about it except from what Amir has stated. Is this the same Korindo Aikido that you are saying Amir?

It is the same Korindo Aikido.

Hirai did have contact with Ueshiba, but he did not consider Ueshiba as his main source of insipiration, nor did he think of himself as following in Ueshiba footsteps. Hirai was a M.A. expert and teacher before he met Ueshiba, and he had already started to develop his own unique way.

You can also read the message I wrote in A.J. trying to explain this as I understand it:
http://www.aikidojournal.com/forums/...889&highlight=

Amir

Thanks Amir.

Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: Don't think so...... Pretty uniforms though.... hee hee! Too many people using the word "aikido" these days to add some sort of credibility to what they are doing..... why don't they just call it Phillippine Self Defence and leave out the "Aikido" Tony

I am very much agree with Attilio Anthony's comments

Vincent Munoz wrote: Maybe japan has to do something for this issue. Maybe they should do something like a copyright to the phrase "aikido". Uniting all the traditional aikido organizations like aikikai, yoshinkan etc. so that they can sue all the other group whose using the phrase aikido without the permission from the umbrella organization. Aikido became a part of Japanese culture so i think the Japanese government should support this suggestion especially that aikido is being taught to japanese police. Make it international law. I don't know if this is possible, i just thought about it. That way, misuse of the word aikido will be avoided. Like McDonald or Kentucky Fried Chicken, you cannot use it anywhere if you don't get a franchise. What do you think aikiweb?

I agree with you Vincent Munoz

Robin Esguera wrote: I agree with you Vincent Munoz

wrong reply

Yes, nothing to do with Aikido, really. I think they just copied some and execution is not right, it's not dynamic.

Roman Kremianski wrote: I like that robot uke. "Play dead! Roll over! Ok now hold still for a second while I finish this technique...almost there...ok now play dead again!!"

Ha ha...nice description...I actually pity the Uke. Got hit by some hard knees and elbows during the presentation...totally unnecessary...

looks more like karate mixed with some jujitsu...

Seems to be that the founder of this art studied in Aikido...found it weak so he incorporated strikes as well as removed some dynamic movements...the result karate + jujitsu...

I like the shrieks of the tori though...gives me the heebeejeebees...

elit·ism
Pronunciation:
\ā-ˈlē-ˌti-zəm, i-, ē-\
Function:
noun
Date:
1947
1: leadership or rule by an elite
2: the selectivity of the elite; especially : snobbery <elitism in choosing new members>
3: consciousness of being or belonging to an elite
— elit·ist \-ˈlē-tist\ noun or adjective

Vincent Munoz wrote: Maybe japan has to do something for this issue. Maybe they should do something like a copyright to the phrase "aikido". Uniting all the traditional aikido organizations like aikikai, yoshinkan etc. so that they can sue all the other group whose using the phrase aikido without the permission from the umbrella organization. Aikido became a part of Japanese culture so i think the Japanese government should support this suggestion especially that aikido is being taught to japanese police. Make it international law. I don't know if this is possible, i just thought about it. That way, misuse of the word aikido will be avoided. Like McDonald or Kentucky Fried Chicken, you cannot use it anywhere if you don't get a franchise. What do you think aikiweb?

Can't be done. The reason why is because the word Aikido is in the public domain. It's origins do not lie within any particular aikido organization.

McDonald's cannot trademark the name Hamburger. KFC cannot trademark the product name of Chicken. That is why McDonald's spends millions promoting the Big Mac® and KFC promotes it's Original Recipe®. Besides we all have bigger Filet-O-Fish® to fry.

Oh brother...

I agree with Ledyard Sensei and who knows better than him!
As a Taekwondo stylist I recognize this as a classic two-step sparring technique with one person attacking and the other counterattacking. There are thousands of variations but the same theme. As an Aikido trained martial artist I have had to learn to constantly be aware of controlling my and uke centers to perform any technique and the emphasis on smooth almost effortless motion with a sense of ki flow. This is classic hard style with some joint locks, a few throws, mixed with hand and foot strikes. Label it as Taekwondo, Hapkido, or Karate and I''ll believe it to be properly labelled. To label this as Aikido is to not understand basic concepts of Aikido.
I noted that on the side videos there was a video labelled "Nishio Sensei" at a an Aikido friendship session. I must admit I have not heard of him since I have only been in Aikido for 15 months but I wanted to compare another "Aikido" video. Wow! What a difference! That is Aikido! Flowing, a master of balance and control, and a sense of tremendous power using locks and throws at leisure. The sword work was beautiful to watch. A master of Aikido. A picture is worth a thousand words.
I am only a novice at Aikido but I know it when I see it and the first video ain't it!!

Doc

I'm just now getting around to watching this video. To me, it does look an awful lot like Tae Kwon Do and some Jiu-Jitsu thrown in. One thing that disturbed me about this video, was when Nage either didn't think to, or allowed Uke to retain the knife. You will note in a few instances where Uke still has possession of the weapon even when the technique has been executed. Nage doesn't really try and disarm Uke and/or retreat. Just my 2 cents.

wow. didn't see anything resembling even jujutsu, let alone aikido

but to me, they probably used the name 'aikido' because its popular right now... just like some mcdojos list a whole roster of MAs but teach one ugly hybrid.

maybe in the future it will be renamed 'combat mixed martial arts' because of the growing popularity of MMA