Defending against Aikido

Alex Lawrence wrote: .... If the kick is an inital attack then yes I totally agree with you. If, however, the kick comes at the very start or a technique as you're dealing with a punch or maybe even another kick you're at the very least going to have to abort the technique you're doing .....

And .... this is a showstopper? The principle of aborting if the first thing you try doesn't work is built into some techniques like irimi nage and now and again we've done "combinations," such as you try ikkyo or nikkyo, it doesn't work, so you have to switch to something else. So at the very least, many Aikido people should be acquainted with the principle of aborting and retrying if not the specific scenario.

Roy Dean wrote: This is exactly why I fell in love with BJJ, and why I think "mainstream" Aikido could benefit from their training methods. Questions regarding reversing or countering techniques become self evident through DOING, with resistance. It's all reversible, whether through tactics or redirection, regardless of the techniques employed, regardless of the style.

The other night, I was reading part of "Secrets of Aikido" by John Stevens. In respomse to complaints from within and without Aikido that uke and nage cooperate too much, Stevens said, "That's the point."

Oh, well. So much for that debate; point to Alex. And I doubt "mainstream" Aikido will be borrowing from BJJ any time soon. It's like saying baseball players need to work on their field goal kicks. Not gonna happen.

That said, it's beginning to look to me like ukemi waza is probably one of the hardest parts of the art. You're no good to nage if you drop before he or she can even apply the technique. On the other hand, if you resist too much, depending on nage's skill, you either get a frustrated nage (me -- actually happened in Kali some years ago) or an airborne uke (which I've seen). Neither helps much. It has to be ..... juuuuussssttttt riiiiiggghhhht. There's a timing element in there, and you have to be pretty aware of what nage's doing to "play your part."

Hmmmm.

In a previous post I alluded to the fact that if, when and how much to resist is a complicated question. I'm beginning to appreciate that.

Alex Lawrence wrote: Shi-ho nage for example turns me so I can dump some more energy into that turning movement, pirouette on one foot and smash the other into Tori.

Try this on your instructor...

Ian Upstone wrote: Try this on your instructor...

I was thinking the same thing

Ian Upstone wrote: Try this on your instructor...

Yeah, why haven't I thought of that advice before. Hey Alex...

Try what you mention on your sensei and tell us what happen OK?

Love to hear more from you

Boon.

Once I nearly got caught doing it, as soon as my heel came off the ground though the class started wetting itself laughing so he knew something was up and I got full on evil eye. We keep score of who hits him you see, at the moment I'm well out in front with something like 6 or 7, including two bokken strikes. I mean if he pins me and says "Do you want to get up?" I take it as an open invitation to get up although probably not any more because he's figured out that wrenching my thumb out of it's joint stops me wanting to get up. He knows how hard I am to pin.
He's a bloody good sensei, has to be said. I've learned so much from him, I've never seen such dedication.
Mind you if I said I could boot him from shi-ho nage he'd probably be like "Oh ok then" and away we'd go, but then he'd know it was coming. Anyone else in the world from Doshu down ok fine I'll do it but not Sensei. Too much respect.

Alex Lawrence wrote: Once I nearly got caught doing it, as soon as my heel came off the ground though the class started wetting itself laughing so he knew something was up and I got full on evil eye. We keep score of who hits him you see, at the moment I'm well out in front with something like 6 or 7, including two bokken strikes. I mean if he pins me and says "Do you want to get up?" I take it as an open invitation to get up although probably not any more because he's figured out that wrenching my thumb out of it's joint stops me wanting to get up. He knows how hard I am to pin. He's a bloody good sensei, has to be said. I've learned so much from him, I've never seen such dedication. Mind you if I said I could boot him from shi-ho nage he'd probably be like "Oh OK then" and away we'd go, but then he'd know it was coming. Anyone else in the world from Doshu down OK fine I'll do it but not Sensei. Too much respect.

You are not on seven you little cheek! five is far more the score. (on 4 myself [2tsuki,1 hip throw, 1 B-E-A utifull bokken slice])

Anyhow- the point still stands that Aikidoka need to at least acknowledge the presence of a kick. True in that they are rare- true that nobody will ever train to defeat aikido and true that some techniques can be adapted.
However- if sensei turned round to me and said "Uchi-irimi sankyo, finishing up in sotokitenage" and proceeded to try and hit me with a Fencing sabre i would be completely clueless.
If the roundhouse is coming in and you have 1/2 second to react, what are you going to do?
-The submissions only work against the bones in the arm and cannot be "directly" converted on the fly- so rule those out.
-Shio Nage is never going to work as all Uke/ attacker would do is slam his foot down, killing the technique.
-Iriminage if you can bet behind Uke maybe... Maybe... actually that would work quite sweet...
-Tenchinage. Not a chance in hell am i walking into a roundhouse kick!
UchiKiten nage- Ummmmm. No. is not going to happen
Sotokitennage- Outside wrist turn... On a foot? Perhaps some butchered form would work.
Kotegaeshi- Alright that one is fairly good in a tight spot.
UdeKemonage- May well work
Jujinage- Impossible.
UdeGodeannage- I wouldn't risk it....

That is only my knowledge thus far. If anybody else knows otherwise feel free to rip me apart (in writing of course)

Richard Player wrote: -Tenchinage. Not a chance in hell am i walking into a roundhouse kick!

I find Tenchi Nage works quite well against a kicking uke, you've got less resistance as one leg is raised. Which side are you going on, the kicking side? You can get someone horizontal with this technique.

Michael Gallagher wrote: And I doubt "mainstream" Aikido will be borrowing from BJJ any time soon. It's like saying baseball players need to work on their field goal kicks. Not gonna happen. In a previous post I alluded to the fact that if, when and how much to resist is a complicated question. I'm beginning to appreciate that.

I'm glad to read you appreciate your own sentiments more and more over time.

It's a shame though, that the "borrowing" of training methods from other arts is "not gonna happen." Mits Yamashita advocated doing this years ago. Even Dan Inasanto has said that training methods are all you can really take away from studying under high level martial artists. Most of the students in my BJJ class are forward thinking Aikidoka that have FELT the power of the training method, and want to evolve and incorporate these skills.

I don't think your analogy holds up, either. Judo, Aikido, and BJJ are all grappling methods. I see little difference between them, as Tomiki also saw little difference between the first two, and sought to improve one with the training method of the other.

Roy Dean

Roy Dean wrote: .... Even Dan Inasanto has said that training methods are all you can really take away from studying under high level martial artists.....

Guro Dan has also said that every martial art has something to offer. Guro Kevin Seaman, one of my Kali instructors, who has his instructorship from Guro Dan, had a sign on the wall of his now-defunct school which said, among other things, "I will refrain from criticisizing other martial arts styles and systems because they all have something to offer." And he and Guro Andy Astle, under whom I am continuing Kali (and Pembantu Andy also has permission to teach Pentjak Silat Serak from Maha Guru Victor de Thouars, so that's how I got into that) are HAPPY I got back into Aikido. Pembantu Andy is said he's happy I'm doing everything I do because "that makes a better Michael Gallagher."

..... I don't think your analogy holds up, either. Judo, Aikido, and BJJ are all grappling methods. I see little difference between them, as Tomiki also saw little difference between the first two, and sought to improve one with the training method of the other. Roy Dean

Maybe. On the other hand, the prohibition against "competions" goes all the way back to O Sensei, and IIRC, Tomiki ran afoul of it. If avoiding certain training methods is part of Aikido's "game," then the analogy does hold up.

Either way, I'm not really losing any sleep over it. Whether it was by accident or design, my Kali instructors left me with a "live and let live" attitude towards the way different MA are put together. Yeah, I guess I could say, "Based on my long yahrs of experience with karate, kali, Wing Chun, and most recently, Pentjak Silat Serak, I think Aikido should do things THIS way instead of the way they are doing things," but that's not in me (and I wouldn't be surprised if being a horse's backside in Aikido would [at the very least] cost me points with Pembantu Andy; he takes respect VERY seriously). I'm more like, "So this is the way they do things? Ok. What will I get out of it? I guess I'll have to keep doing it if I want to find out." (Which is also the appropriate attitude considering that my Aikido needs a LOT of work!)

But then again, that's me. YMMV.

Didn't reall read this article before ( ), but I'ver backtracked to it and given it some thought.

Alex Lawrence wrote: .... The same is true, if they hop/step back on balance during a technique and lash out with the other foot or use your energy to boot you. Shi-ho nage for example turns me so I can dump some more energy into that turning movement, pirouette on one foot and smash the other into Tori ....

I have to admit, I'm having a little trouble visualizing what you're talking about. But if Tori isn't wedded to the idea of finishing the technique as advertised and can abort and go with the flow, it may be risky.

In particular, if the kick you are using involves bending over, that is risky because Tori could think, "Oh, you're heading down for me? Thank you. Let me help you the rest of the way." Factor in that you have one foot on the ground instead of two, and you may -- I repeat, MAY -- hit the ground harder than you had planned.

Of course, you can delete that problem by keeping both feet planted and doing something like a spinning backfist, but if you spin too fast, you could end up with your back to nage while he's still facing you. This is the position some throws go for, usually by having nage move around uke. In this case, uke would HAND that position to nage on a silver platter! THUD.

Also bear in mind the position your arm is twisted into suring shiho-nage. For safety, I'm always being yelled at to keep it close to my uke's head so it doesn't unwind and wrip some muscles and tendons. If you unwind your own arm in the midst of your counter while nage is still hanging on, you could hurt yourself.

Just a few thoughts. Again, nage could be caught flat-footed and it would work, but maybe not. YMMV.

Tim Gerrard wrote: I find Tenchi Nage works quite well against a kicking uke, you've got less resistance as one leg is raised. Which side are you going on, the kicking side? You can get someone horizontal with this technique.

OK maybe- if you are fast and kind of lucky. However, as the roundhouse is coming in for the flank say, the only method for dealing with it would be to take it round chudan.
Personally i do not believe my arm could combat a kick- that to me seems like a block- confrontation.
no way. If he wants to swing his body- let him! Help him on his way and take for irimi-nage. This is far simpler.

i doubt Tenchinage would work from moving in. Simple anatomy- the leg is far stronger then the arm and so the potential risk to your arm far outweighs the possibility of success. Besides moving straight in seems to be rather confrontational...
just my opinion- How would you propose that Tenchinage is done?

Step offline and hit them in the face and or collar bone. Its not to difficult, in dojo practise around here it is probably the most common response to a kick (along with direct iriminage and sokumen-iriminage). In a "real" confrontation, if someone was stupid enough to try and roundhouse me, Id be more than happy to try a tenchinage on them.

A kick like a roundhouse is generally a big long movement, you can generally see them coming a mile off. Its not too difficult to move out of the way. Isnt that the first rule of Aikido? Move.

Also, a kick is only dangerous when it has reached its full point of extension. Why would you let it do that? Seems pretty stupid to me...

" doubt Tenchinage would work from moving in. Simple anatomy- the leg is far stronger then the arm and so the potential risk to your arm far outweighs the possibility of success. Besides moving straight in seems to be rather confrontational..."

The leg may be stronger than the arm, but the arm doesnt have to go anywhere near the leg to perform Tenchinage. The concept of Irimi seems confrontational to you? Perhaps you should ask your sensei for a kicking session, I think you'd really enjoy it and would learn some interesting stuff

Edit: Forgot to add the obligatory disclaimer that I am not dissing Kicking arts. Far be it. There are some wonderful kicking techniques and strikes and of course Im sure a superb Karateka or Taekwando exponent would proceed to kick me senseless

But that isnt the way we kick in Aikido (generally Mae-Geri and Mae-Geri-Washi, in our dojo's at least) and its fairly unlikely that in a "real" confrontation you would be fighting said skilled martial artist. An Aikidoka and another MA student would hopefully know better than to waste their time in folly like this. However, things in life are rarely uncomplicated...

Richard Player wrote: If the roundhouse is coming in and you have 1/2 second to react, what are you going to do?

Whatever comes to (your hopefully blank) mind. Sitting here, I can think of so many options!!
1 - step in/forward with outside foot, sweep round and back with inside foot, and smash my fist towards kicker's face.
2 - step in, reach for hair, ears, gi, whatever, and butt them in the face
3 - step towards the kick (remember that kime is what causes damage, and if you meet the attack before kime, you should be OK) grab the leg and
3a - kick them in the nuts
3b - flip the leg over and lock the foot/ankle and/or knee
3c - drop a massive elbow on the knee
4 - step in and towards the kick, with your back to the kick, then spend a few seconds extricating your hand from amonst their ribs
5 - there are some nicer variations on the above, honest
6 - etc, etc

And don't come to me with the "you can't punch in aikido" or whatever! Last time I looked, there were no rules.

Slightly more on topic - who said there are no attacks in aikido? And who said aikido is a purely defensive art?

You can grab, kick, punch, whatever you want, to get a reaction from the adversary. As long as the reaction has a little energy, you can use it. If not, just go through them!! You don't need an attack to do irimi nage, tenchi nage, some kokyus, etc.

More to the point of the topic, though, is that specific aikido techniques are tricky (understatement!) to use as attacks. But then, the techniques are training tools that are only very occasionally useful in the real world... Aikido is not the techniques, but the sum of all the parts of you, your training, the situation, your mood/attitude, etc.

Michael Gallagher wrote: I have to admit, I'm having a little trouble visualizing what you're talking about. But if Tori isn't wedded to the idea of finishing the technique as advertised and can abort and go with the flow, it may be risky.

Tori holds you hand that you've just tried to punch him with, he then goes omote, perfoming shi-ho nage. Instead of making tenkan, you lift your forward foot and do a front foot round house into anywhere you like. If he aborts, he get's kicked and ends up side on to you.
You can do it off the back foot too if you yank your arm back or use a front kick. Basically by holding on to you they've holding themselves in brilliant place to be kicked.

Michael Gallagher wrote: In particular, if the kick you are using involves bending over, that is risky because Tori could think, "Oh, you're heading down for me? Thank you. Let me help you the rest of the way." Factor in that you have one foot on the ground instead of two, and you may -- I repeat, MAY -- hit the ground harder than you had planned.

Don't know of a kick that requires you to bend over, unless you're talking about leaning back.

Michael Gallagher wrote: Also bear in mind the position your arm is twisted into during shiho-nage. For safety, I'm always being yelled at to keep it close to my uke's head so it doesn't unwind and wrip some muscles and tendons. If you unwind your own arm in the midst of your counter while nage is still hanging on, you could hurt yourself.

Only if you don't pull your arm to your center or move your center to your arm. Besides tori wouldn't get that far into the technique. If the kick was part of a combo tori would react to the punch and get caught by the kick as he moves in.

Alex Lawrence wrote: Tori holds you hand that you've just tried to punch him with, he then goes omote, perfoming shi-ho nage. Instead of making tenkan, you lift your forward foot and do a front foot round house into anywhere you like.

Only if the technique sucks - the omote entry should have you practivally bent double with no balance or stable base to kick from. If you yank your arm in, the ura form applies, and the tenkan is too quick for you to get a kick in. I disagree with you completely that this would stand a chance of working. Not with me, anyway! ;-)

I refer you to a previous answer, anyway, and say that you are very unlikely to have a competent aikidoka doing shiho nage to you in a realistic situation. In the dojo, it is a very valuable learning/teaching tool, and it is a technique that, if done right, has uke totally under your control - you can throw them anywhere, move them around, use them as a shield or pin them - they never have the opportunity to attack you as you are in a safe position, and they are in "worst condition." If not, it's being done wrong.
Don't know of a kick that requires you to bend over, unless you're talking about leaning back.

Alex Lawrence wrote: Only if you don't pull your arm to your center or move your center to your arm. Besides tori wouldn't get that far into the technique. If the kick was part of a combo tori would react to the punch and get caught by the kick as he moves in.

Unlikely if the punch was committed, as your balance would be broken almost at the instant of contact. If the fist is snapped back (as it should be) and/or the punch is a faint and not committed, you either don't enter and maintain you ma ai, or you just enter much more deeply, getting to the safe position just behind the shoulder of the punching arm. The kick would have no extension or kime and would be harmless, leaving uke expose to some very nasty counters.

Geoff Saulnier wrote: Only if the technique sucks - the omote entry should have you practivally bent double with no balance or stable base to kick from. If you yank your arm in, the ura form applies, and the tenkan is too quick for you to get a kick in. I disagree with you completely that this would stand a chance of working. Not with me, anyway! ;-)

Umm, if you manage to complete the entry yes. It should. If you keep your arm in there is no shi-ho nage though omote or ura. Try it. Keep your elbow on your body and ask someone to do shi-hi nage on you.

Geoff Saulnier wrote: I refer you to a previous answer, anyway, and say that you are very unlikely to have a competent aikidoka doing shiho nage to you in a realistic situation.

People tend to do exactly what they're trainned to do in the dojo. We have a saying in our dojo when a newbie asks what technique we'd do in a given situation: "It is as it falls".

Geoff Saulnier wrote: Unlikely if the punch was committed, as your balance would be broken almost at the instant of contact. If the fist is snapped back (as it should be) and/or the punch is a faint and not committed, you either don't enter and maintain you ma ai, or you just enter much more deeply, getting to the safe position just behind the shoulder of the punching arm. The kick would have no extension or kime and would be harmless, leaving uke expose to some very nasty counters.

Well it wouldn't be shi-ho nage then would it? So there would be no need to counter shi-ho nage. Besides you're assuming uke throws a punch big enough to unbalance himself.

Alex Lawrence wrote: Umm, if you manage to complete the entry yes. It should. If you keep your arm in there is no shi-ho nage though omote or ura. Try it. Keep your elbow on your body and ask someone to do shi-hi nage on you.

Actually, that's not true - shiho nage can still be done, but it tends to be extremely uncomfortable for uke. It just means doing ura sinking down a bit more.

Alex Lawrence wrote: People tend to do exactly what they're trainned to do in the dojo. We have a saying in our dojo when a newbie asks what technique we'd do in a given situation: "It is as it falls".

In a sense, you are correct. This is why we keep training until the aikido becomes spontaneous, where you create every technique from scratch depending on everything about a situation. Then, you do exactly as in the dojo - you create the appropriate response. This will seldom be a well defined technique.

Alex Lawrence wrote: Well it wouldn't be shi-ho nage then would it? So there would be no need to counter shi-ho nage. Besides you're assuming uke throws a punch big enough to unbalance himself.

It is dangerous to fixate on a technique. It is also true that any technique can be countered, expecially when you know what it will be. This is also true of any strike. If there's no shiho nage there, then why fixate on it - do something else! That's aikido. Of course if, on striking uke or whatever (from that safe position), uke reacts in such a way that shiho nage is there, then do it!!

As for the balance comment - no. I am assuming that uke throw whatever punch they want. In attack, uke's mind is a little out of balance, so I might be able to lead their mind. If not, I can physically unbalance them by entering correctly. If the punch is a faint, I can still choose not to enter.

If the punch is a faint, I can still choose not to enter.

Minor problem is that one cannot tell a feint from a real attack until it is completed. And if you do nothing, the feint could be a reboublement and still hit you.

As for the matter of balance- this is always the key in our dojo. However, given that sensei is demonstrating and guiding newer people through slowly, Uke rarely trays to escape, counter or throw punches.
This appears to be the same in how all aikidoka train. they go with it, relaxing and falling. I go to the same Dojo as Alex L. I can throw him until th cows come home and vi ca versa. However, when one gets sick of looking at the roof, the jabs start and we "play-fight". Neither can throw the other for fear of as soon as i get him a fist/ elbow/ knee/ leg is coming my way. many techniques break into sacrifice maneuvers- which sort of defeats the point of aikido.

Anyhow- after all of my waffle the point is this- anybody can throw an Uke who wants to be thrown. Throwing someone who has come at you with a jab and really wants to stay upright is the real challenge.

Spoke to a friend of mine a few weeks back about the whole balance thing and his answer was brilliant. "restore it" he said. This guy has never done any martial arts in his life and so is the prime example of what would happen out there in the big, wide (and horrid) world.
Thats the thing, somebody's posture and balance is only broken until they restore it. This can be done at any time that Uke wishes- all they have to do is think about how.
Try demonstrating Irimi nage on a friend who is clueless about aikido- the first thing they do, THE FIRST THING is look at where you are moving and move to counter it.
unless someone is going full for you at 100% commitment, the attempt of outflanking or getting behind is pointless.

I give up balance for safety and honesty in my training. I agree that an attacker who is more concerned with maintaining their balance than giving an honest attack and/or staying safe is going to be very difficult to deal with safely and/or honestly (since they are not concerned for it!).

Attack someone like Gleason sensei honestly, and I think you'll have a difficult time trying to simply restore your balance. Attack him dishonestly, and you'll probably find that whatever openings there are in your "attack" will get filled.

Rob

Its horses for courses isnt it? If someones attacking with keeping in balance in mind all the time then you would just proceed to lamp them or hurt them with a technique rather than unbalance/throw them.

If somebody thinks they can ignore kicks in their martial art, they are in big trouble!! I don't believe spontaneous improvised Aikido techniques are going to do anything but open you up to a butt whipping. You have to train realistically against them and build your techniques. They are fast, and they are powerful when fired off by somebody who has been doing them for a long long time.

Underestimating kicks is the same as someone dismissing Aikido as a dance. Just plain ignorant. They can break your leg, knees, wrists, arms, head so it's probably a good idea to learn something about them.

Here is some Muay Thai clips of Ramon Dekker. Go to a Muay Thai camp and do some traning. Your respect for kicks and punches will increase dramatically.

http://www.compfused.com/directlink/442/
http://www.mikemiles.com/video/dekkerpena.mpg
http://www.mikemiles.com/video/dekkersaengtiennoi.mpg

[i]Hey all,

Just say that you find yourself in a defensive situation and someone is attempting to use Aikido on you, he already may you off balance a bit, is Aikido, if implemented correctly and quickly enough, defendable against?

Deep thoughts Deep thoughts?[i]

1. If someone is trying to attack you using "aikido", it is no longer truly aikido. Depending upon there intention and the technique they use it is most likely going to be some form of aiki-budo, aiki-jujitsu, etc. THIS IS NOT AIKIDO, THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE.

2. If this hypothetical situation is meant to represent a "real life" attack by someone, it is not a realistic one. Most skilled martial artists of any style, form, etc. are not going around on the street picking fights or robbing people. They are off making money in some way or teaching people.

3. One of the most important lessons I've learned through personal experience and other people's experience is that if you go looking for trouble you are going to find it or it will find you. In other words about 80% of the time if someone gets into a "fight" they did something to provoke it.

Anyway I'm sorry for the tangent, but in my mind these distinctions are important ones.

Alex Lawrence wrote: Tori holds you hand that you've just tried to punch him with, he then goes omote, performing shi-ho nage. Instead of making tenkan, you lift your forward foot and do a front foot round house into anywhere you like. If he aborts, he get's kicked and ends up side on to you. You can do it off the back foot too if you yank your arm back or use a front kick. Basically by holding on to you they've holding themselves in brilliant place to be kicked.

Still having a problem. Maybe it's my lack of imagination, but ....

When we do shiho nage in the dojo I go to, we end up really close to uke -- far too close for most fully-extended TKD and karate kicks. If you're not that close, you could be doing something wrong. Your best bets would be something like a hook kick, which really flexible TKD guys can do in close; or a Thai round kick, which can be done very close.

Even then -- and feel free to correct me on this --- it sounds like you're advocating turning against the direction shiho-nage can rotate you in. Potentially risky, especially given that your base will be to one foot, which is an inherent problem with kicking.

Maybe hanging on sets nage up to be kicked, but remember also -- and if you've done grappling you will know this --- that if nage has developed touch-sensitivity, hanging on is the way to tell if you're up to something, especially if, as noted above, you're in close. Also, if nage is responding to a boxing-style jab or cross to the head, shiho-nage is still possible, but the setup might be something different than what you'd expect.

Tenkan in response to shiho nage omote? That's a new one on me.

Don't know of a kick that requires you to bend over, unless you're talking about leaning back.

Again, I'm assuming a relatively in close situation, definitely inside punching range. So if you were going for a head-level TKD style kick, depending on the kick chosen, might require leaning back for flexibility. Having said that, I should add I'm NOT a TKD expert, so I could be wrong about that.

Only if you don't pull your arm to your center or move your center to your arm. Besides tori wouldn't get that far into the technique. If the kick was part of a combo tori would react to the punch and get caught by the kick as he moves in.

Only if you're quicker than Tori, but we're postulating a Tori who's quick enough to snag you're first or second punch in your combination. In which case, you might have hit him already, so the exercise is academic.