AikiWeb Aikido Forums

AikiWeb Aikido Forums (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/index.php)
-   Training (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=15)
-   -   Defending against Aikido (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7876)

actoman 04-06-2005 10:39 AM

Defending against Aikido
 
Hey all,

Just say that you find yourself in a defensive situation and someone is atttempting to use Aikido on you, he already may you off balance a bit, is Aikido, if implemented correctly and quickly enough, defendable against?

Deep thoughts Deep thoughts?

Bryan 04-06-2005 10:48 AM

Re: Defending against Aikido
 
Quote:

Andy Orwig wrote:
Hey all,

Just say that you find yourself in a defensive situation and someone is atttempting to use Aikido on you, he already may you off balance a bit, is Aikido, if implemented correctly and quickly enough, defendable against?

Deep thoughts Deep thoughts?

Sweep the leg, no mercy, Cobra Kai!!! Ok all kidding aside.

The first question you should start with is what is the likelyhood of you being in a "defensive situation" while an Aikidoka attacks you. If you don't give them energy, how are they going to use it against you?

Suppose it is happening and you are off balance...you probably started it and deserve whatever you get (ok so I'm still kidding)....obviously you will need to fight for the control of your own balance at the very least. Most martial arts or hand to hand techniques tend to be far less effective when deployed from an unbalanced posture. If you can figure out the technique that is being applied you can try to stay just ahead of the energy, like riding a wave, and look for an opening to escape, counter attack, or reverse the technique. In my KungFu days I would have tried to strip the grap and toss a jab to distract them so I could get out of the mess I got myself into. Now that I do Aikido, I'd try to keep the connection and try to take control of our balance and the line of attack.

The next thing I would do is try to stay away from their reach. If you can't grab me you can't toss me:P , well usually, unelss you can distract me enought to make me trip ;) .

Who am I kidding?...I'd just run away and hope the Aikidoka was one of the elderly, pot bellied, kind. :D

Tim Gerrard 04-06-2005 11:25 AM

Re: Defending against Aikido
 
Very interesting topic, it beats is Ju-jitsu better than Aikido.

Having never had aikido used against me in anger, I can only therorise. But supposing in a fight, that someone tried kote-gaeshi you could counter it with irimi-nage. I think that practice of Kaishi Waza would come in handy for that. Same for armlocks/immobilisations. But for hard projections, irimi-nage, shio-nage, no chance, just hope your ukemi and insurance is up to scratch! :uch: :uch: :uch:

tarik 04-06-2005 01:48 PM

Re: Defending against Aikido
 
Quote:

Andy Orwig wrote:
Hey all,

Just say that you find yourself in a defensive situation and someone is atttempting to use Aikido on you, he already may you off balance a bit, is Aikido, if implemented correctly and quickly enough, defendable against?

Deep thoughts Deep thoughts?

Not so deep, really.

First, your suggestion is VERY unlikely. If I MUST indulge in what if's, I prefer to stick to the more likely ones. I am of the opinion that the likelihood of being attacked by a skilled martial artist goes down the more skill they have attained and years of training that said martial artist has been involved in, regardless of the art.

Second, this is the very scenario we engage in every day in the dojo. As uke, do you not study your partners suki (openings) while taking ukemi?

They are always there. You make not always exploit them, but that should never stop you from studying them, as this informs your own nagewaza (nagemi, to steal the term from Jun).

Tarik

Anat Amitay 04-06-2005 02:45 PM

Re: Defending against Aikido
 
Sorry, but I find it kind of starnge to find oneself attacked with aikido, no? I mean, the MA is more on the defence side than attack. The only thing I can make out of this is if an Aikido technique is being done on someone, if he can turn it to his gain.
In this case I have seen my sensei working with the advaced students and if he can find an opening, he will turn the technique around and turn uke to nage and vis versa.
In this case it's actually being very attentive to your partner and seeking his mistakes. Of course, the more advanced you are, the harder it is to find an opening and more of your techniques will work without your partner being able to do something about it but accept it.
:)

Kevin Leavitt 04-06-2005 03:15 PM

Re: Defending against Aikido
 
respectfully, the question is unanswerable since there are way too many variables that are assumed or are assumed away. Size, strength, location, distance, speed....just to name a few.

If he has you off balance AND knows what he is doing, AND assuming it was an ambush attack, which if you were for arguments sake being attacked by a skilled martial artist, then he skillfully has employed the art of suprise and has a huge advantage over you. He is probably already two or three moves ahead of your recovery and is moving you into position for the next submission or strike.

You are probably screwed if he knows what he is doing. Do what you can to recover yourself. I recommend going to the ground and into the guard to be quite honest since you are probably headed there anyway. All the more reason work on ground fighting skills.

BTW, people don't attack with a pure martial style like using "aikido". They may use principles, but in the end they use what works based on all the variables and errors that present themselves in the situation. Ends up looking like NHB or MMA stuff when being done for real. That is why I say go to the guard...it is the most likely position of defense you will be able to acheive.

Kevin Leavitt 04-06-2005 03:18 PM

Re: Defending against Aikido
 
Oh yea...from an aikido standpoint...why are you in this situation? and why did you not see it coming? and why did you have bad posture that led to him off balancing you in the first place? Shame on you for not maintaining your kamae at all times! :) Have a nice day!

SeiserL 04-06-2005 03:45 PM

Re: Defending against Aikido
 
IMHO, step into your balance point to regain position and follow the path of the attack in a circular motion until your counter technique become apparent.

Alfonso 04-06-2005 05:07 PM

Re: Defending against Aikido
 
i.e. more aikido!

tedehara 04-06-2005 06:32 PM

Re: Defending against Aikido
 
Quote:

Andy Orwig wrote:
Hey all,

Just say that you find yourself in a defensive situation and someone is atttempting to use Aikido on you, he already may you off balance a bit, is Aikido, if implemented correctly and quickly enough, defendable against?

Deep thoughts Deep thoughts?

I have been told that all these techniques will work if you do them correctly. However, that is a big IF. Most people are inconsistent in their application of technique.

Even if they have the inital lead, there are many places where they can goof up. Once that happens, you can take over the lead. If they lead correctly throughout, you take ukemi, an option non-practitioners do not have.

Rupert Atkinson 04-06-2005 11:45 PM

Re: Defending against Aikido
 
If the person doing Aikido on you is good, then it is likely you who initiated the whole problem - thus you should submit and apologise for whatever it was you did to start it :)

Joezer M. 04-07-2005 12:47 AM

Re: Defending against Aikido
 
If you need to defend yourself against an aikidoka, like mentioned above, it's quite likely that you pushed too far... Unless the technique was done with intent to do serious harm, maybe you could simply blend with it, take ukemi, and apologize, right?

Of course, if you're attacked by any of the aikidokas I know (including me), the best defence would be to distract them with beer or pizza... Cookies might work too... :D


Regards,
Joezer (who, by the way, really likes extra peperoni on his pizza, thankyouverymuch :) )

Dazzler 04-07-2005 06:41 AM

Re: Defending against Aikido
 
Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote:
I recommend going to the ground and into the guard to be quite honest since you are probably headed there anyway. All the more reason work on ground fighting skills..........

Ends up looking like NHB or MMA stuff when being done for real. That is why I say go to the guard...it is the most likely position of defense you will be able to acheive.

:eek:

It may well be where you end up...but voluntarily going to the ground for me is an absolute no no.

This is why NHB and MMA while being excellent training are still not the same as street fighting.

What about multiple attackers, what about drunken bystanders who are ready to kick off at any excuse?

I agree for sure that if you've no choice then its a great idea to have a ground game. If this is your strength and you know its just the 2 of you then again...why not?

But I can't agree that its a place to go voluntarily and would certainly never recommend it except as a last resort.

On a different note in response to other posts ...I've been lead to believe that ukemi is mainly to enable safe practice. As an option against realistically applied attacks it probably doesn't exist other than as a breakfall.

FWIW

D

batemanb 04-07-2005 07:27 AM

Re: Defending against Aikido
 
Quote:

Tim Gerrard wrote:
But supposing in a fight, that someone tried kote-gaeshi you could counter it with irimi-nage. I think that practice of Kaishi Waza would come in handy for that.


Hi Tim,

I think it's back to what if's here really. If your uke (tori applying the technique) has done it properly, if your balance is compromised and if he hasn't left himself open, kaeshi waza is very difficult, if not impossible to do. Kaeshi waza is a reaction/ response to slack technique, it really will depend on what tori is doing, and how well he's doing it, I don't think it's an automatic course of action.

As others have said, I find it hard to image the situation really, I would be surprised if someone attacked using Aikido per se, but you never know.

rgds

Bryan

darin 04-07-2005 08:19 AM

Re: Defending against Aikido
 
Quote:

Andy Orwig wrote:
Hey all,

Just say that you find yourself in a defensive situation and someone is atttempting to use Aikido on you, he already may you off balance a bit, is Aikido, if implemented correctly and quickly enough, defendable against?

Deep thoughts Deep thoughts?

Probably not if the attacker is doing the technique correct and fast. If you are bigger and stronger than your opponent you may be able to muscle your way out of his lock or throw. As some people in this forum have mentioned, you can go with the technique and do ukemi. If you can fall out of his technique it will be very hard for your attacker to do kimewaza unless he tries to kick you while your down.

Kaeshi waza is good but really only works when you know what is going to happen.

SeiserL 04-07-2005 09:14 AM

Re: Defending against Aikido
 
BTW, the best defense is to clap your hands twice. A good Aikidoka will drop to their knees. LOL

Tim Griffiths 04-07-2005 09:55 AM

Re: Defending against Aikido
 
All kaeshiwaza depends on regaining your balance. In fact, I'd stick my neck out enough to say that what distinguishes aikido techniques is the strong emphasis on kuzushi (not to say that judo/jitsu doesn't have it).
If you're off balance, and the aikido is good, its already over, regardless of the technique. You just can't do iriminage if you're spinning on one foot. In this situation, all you can try to do is regain your balance. Unfortunately for you, most aikido training assumes an uke who is trying to do just that, so you have your work cut out for you - good aikido doesn't allow uke to get back to their center. This means that good aikido doesn't have kaeshi openings.

I don't really have much to say to people who said that you can't be attacked with aikido, apart from - huh? Passively sitting and waiting to be attacked is something we train in for the first couple of years of learning aikido, but after that we should really be moving to a more proactive approach. Look at O'sensei's original training manual: In the explanations the first step always comes from Tori (admittedly, that first step is sometimes "Tori fills their body with ki and invites uke to attack" - but its not passive, and fewer than half the techniques listed there).

Train well,

(a different) Tim

ruthmc 04-07-2005 10:14 AM

Re: Defending against Aikido
 
I've only ever found yonkyo to be effective as a technique with which to attack using Aikido :D

Ask your sensei to demonstrate some counters to this if you like :)

Ruth

Kevin Leavitt 04-07-2005 02:01 PM

Re: Defending against Aikido
 
Quote:

Daren Sims wrote:
:eek:

It may well be where you end up...but voluntarily going to the ground for me is an absolute no no.

This is why NHB and MMA while being excellent training are still not the same as street fighting.

What about multiple attackers, what about drunken bystanders who are ready to kick off at any excuse?

I agree for sure that if you've no choice then its a great idea to have a ground game. If this is your strength and you know its just the 2 of you then again...why not?

But I can't agree that its a place to go voluntarily and would certainly never recommend it except as a last resort.

On a different note in response to other posts ...I've been lead to believe that ukemi is mainly to enable safe practice. As an option against realistically applied attacks it probably doesn't exist other than as a breakfall.

FWIW

D

I never condone going to the ground if you do not have to. My assumption is that a aikidoka has your balance, you are defending yourself, he/she is probably already well ahead of your ability to regain posture, therefore you are going to the ground. Best way I know to save yourself is to grab ahold of something like clothing and ride it down minimizing the next move which I assume would be pin or atemi or something.

The best situation is to not let them take your balance in the first place!

I agree with you...it is the same argument I argue with all the time with my BJJ buddies about multiple opponents. You'd be suprised that most of them agree to, but still practice for the sport aspect of it because it is fun.

I have had some new insights into the Army Combatives program which is heavily based on BJJ. In training my soldiers for Military Operations in Urban Terrain (MOUT) most of the high probability scenarios favor BJJ since we do not go into room clearing alone and you are overwhelmed by an opponent and with all your crap on you simply do a controlled fall and hold the guy until your buddy can subdue him.

Don't want to get off on this tangent though. Sorry, but when you start talking "what if's" and realitiy scenarios...it opens up a whole nother ball game and many, many variables to consider that we cannot replicate nor need to in the dojo.

jxa127 04-07-2005 03:41 PM

Re: Defending against Aikido
 
Hi all,

I'd like to echo Tim's comments about aikido being very proactive.

Quote:

Passively sitting and waiting to be attacked is something we train in for the first couple of years of learning aikido, but after that we should really be moving to a more proactive approach. Look at O'sensei's original training manual: In the explanations the first step always comes from Tori (admittedly, that first step is sometimes "Tori fills their body with ki and invites uke to attack" - but its not passive, and fewer than half the techniques listed there).
The one time I've had to use aikido, I was in the middle between two people who were getting progressively angrier with one another -- a younger man and an older man. I'm not going to go into details, but I'm related to both and was trying to calm things down. As things got worse, I remember thinking that if the younger guy moves, I'm going to take him down. He moved, and I took him down.

In a sense, you could say that I attacked him with aikido -- he actually moved away from me. I did a beautiful kyzushi that lead into a great pin that immediately calmed things down and left my no-longer-quite-as-angry young friend unhurt. I, on the other hand, tenkaned right into the back of a wooden chair and had a very nasty bruise for the next week or so.

The point is, I didn't wait for him to move before deciding to take action. I decided to take action and then he moved.

To flip things around, could he have done anything after I attacked him? Probably. It would have been difficult while I was throwing him, but if he had wanted to continue to struggle after I took him to the floor, it could have gotten nasty. I was lucky that he calmed down right away.

Regards,

-Drew

Dazzler 04-08-2005 04:57 AM

Re: Defending against Aikido
 
Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote:
I never condone going to the ground if you do not have to. My assumption is that a aikidoka has your balance, you are defending yourself, he/she is probably already well ahead of your ability to regain posture, therefore you are going to the ground. Best way I know to save yourself is to grab ahold of something like clothing and ride it down minimizing the next move which I assume would be pin or atemi or something.

The best situation is to not let them take your balance in the first place!

I agree with you...it is the same argument I argue with all the time with my BJJ buddies about multiple opponents. You'd be suprised that most of them agree to, but still practice for the sport aspect of it because it is fun.

I have had some new insights into the Army Combatives program which is heavily based on BJJ. In training my soldiers for Military Operations in Urban Terrain (MOUT) most of the high probability scenarios favor BJJ since we do not go into room clearing alone and you are overwhelmed by an opponent and with all your crap on you simply do a controlled fall and hold the guy until your buddy can subdue him.

Don't want to get off on this tangent though. Sorry, but when you start talking "what if's" and realitiy scenarios...it opens up a whole nother ball game and many, many variables to consider that we cannot replicate nor need to in the dojo.

Fair response. I certainly don't want to go down the what if route. Way too many variables to cover off.

Personally I think jujitsu ..BJJ or otherwise...is an excellent compliment to aikido and practiced it for 8 years. The instructor was very into MMA scene and competes professionally in uk.

Everything has its flaws but like most martial arts training the plusses outweigh the negatives.

I see a heck of a lot of plusses in BJJ.

Thanks for post and clearing up the voluntarily seeking the ground query.

D

ian 04-08-2005 05:34 AM

Re: Defending against Aikido
 
Counter attacks are extensive in aikido (though I hate to use this term as it suggests that they are done specifically as counters, rather than finding the natural gaps in someone's techniques).

However, I believe if aikido is done correctly there are no counter attacks. Aikido occurs in conjunction with the attack, so if you have attacked, you have been thrown. However, this also illustrates that you don't DO aikido to someone; aikido is the complement to their attack.

PS if you are already off balance your response is likely to be very poor (although you can do 'sacrifice' throws, this is often a poor strategy in a multiple attack).

actoman 04-08-2005 10:13 AM

Re: Defending against Aikido
 
Sorry, I must have worded it wrong, let me rephrase my question:

I someone were attacking me, and I began to use my technique with their energy, and for some odd reason I was off a bit or too slow, could they wiggle out of the hold or throw and hurt me?

As I become more experienced, I realize what my Sensei says makes so much more sense than it used to. He told me that I would begin to see openings in others' techniques even when watching them on video or the TV. Every day I think of it more and more. Very interesting what he was saying and that at the time I didnt believe him, I was wrong!

samurai_kenshin 04-08-2005 11:25 AM

Re: Defending against Aikido
 
I don't think this is really a plausible situation. An Aikidoka wouldn't be attacking with aikido because most of the stuff is with your uke initinating the attack. If they did decide to punch you you could do a million things with that. Not to mention that it goes against much of the aikido philosophy (though there is that occasional student that goes to the dark side...

samurai_kenshin 04-08-2005 11:31 AM

Re: Defending against Aikido
 
Quote:

Daren Sims wrote:
Fair response. I certainly don't want to go down the what if route. Way too many variables to cover off.

Personally I think jujitsu ..BJJ or otherwise...is an excellent compliment to aikido and practiced it for 8 years. The instructor was very into MMA scene and competes professionally in uk.

Everything has its flaws but like most martial arts training the plusses outweigh the negatives.

I see a heck of a lot of plusses in BJJ.

Thanks for post and clearing up the voluntarily seeking the ground query.

D

You talk about good compliments to Aikido, but i rarely see anyone talk of sword arts as good compliments. Why? I think kendo is a great compliment to Aikido as well as tameshigiri. It helps concentration as well as awareness of self, which my sensei stresses constantly. As for the what if lines, I don't like them. The entire thing is like alternate universes. If he did this you could do this or this, or maybe even that...It's just to complicated to predict all possible human reactions to a situation.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:44 PM.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.