Aikido and kicks

Mat Hill wrote: Nice, I'll have to read that. Wonder what level the 'GI boxer' was... I would guess that he wasn't catching jab but preempting with atemi or by moving in and offline before the boxer's attack was initiated or during an 'off-beat' in the boxer's attack. Perhaps if you have more detail that's relevant to this thread you could include it, or start a new thread/PM me.

Level or skill of boxer = not known, not stated. Probably amateur boxer in the army.

Detail of the technique = As the boxer jab with his left hand, Kancho Shioda moved to grab the boxer's right and, spun around in tenkan fashion and performed shihonage. The GI boxer was caught completely by surprised and ended up with a dislocated elbow.

Many people forget, surprise is a very powerful element. It is easy to say aikido is like this or is like that. Try doing aikido in jiyu waza manner with out pre-arranged sequence and you will see what I mean.

With regards to kick,
1) front kick, respond with shomen-ate or gyaku-aigamae-ate
2) round house, respond with aigamae-ate or ushiro-ate
3) Spinning-kick, respond with kokyu-nage or ushiro-ate
4) front knee hits ala Muay Thai, respond with shomen-ate or aigamae-ate
I personally will go for the neck and control it, and you will control the person. You will also realized that all the above counters are done using the atemi type technique, because they are short, sharp and found to be high probability techniques.

Some posters claim that kickers have good balance, if that is the case, then make them lose it. I personally have found out that the neck is a good place to control the balance of a kicker.

Boon.

Hi Ron, ok, I was speaking in jest, but it was also a reference to set combos where a specific technique on the second hand is being practiced. While I agree you can't expect to look at the position of the second hand during off-hand techniques, several options just become silly if the power hand is waving in the breeze, forcing you to use more gross movements to effect the technique - I think you'd agree this is not an efficient or sensible thing to do with combo attacks.

If you're going freeform and the power hand isn't there, I prefer the upper torso/head for my target area anyway.

Boon, re take their balance on the kick - agree with you up to a point, but the problems in achieving this with an experienced kicker are great, especially if they keep to the low kicks or use short knee jabs when in close.

Ian Hurst wrote: Boon, re take their balance on the kick - agree with you up to a point, but the problems in achieving this with an experienced kicker are great, especially if they keep to the low kicks or use short knee jabs when in close.

But surely the best kicker in the world would not have better balance than the best puncher in the world standing on two feet? Which is not to say that kickers should be underestimated (taking their balance may be just as difficult as taking the balance of a puncher), but if I may capriciously put words in Boon's mouth, I believe he's suggesting that the core principles of aikido do not change when dealing with a kicker.

Agreed, but the distances involved differ enough that standard methods of closing the distance become more problematical. Kicks I'd place more as starting at bokken distances than empty hand, with the additional complication that if the kicker knows how to use their knees well for close in work, you have a nice flexible weapon to deal with.

Hi Ian. Agreed on both counts. Especially using the head!

Best,
Ron

FWIW-

I literally just got through my ikkyu exam. With the exception of the randori, which was not up to (my) standards, I think it went pretty well. The keri waza, ironically enough, went really well. The techniques finally felt smooth, and and at times almost effortless. I think we may have gotten them on video (hopefully) and if so I'll try to get them posted on our college club site. I'd appreciate any links that any of you have to videos of keri waza techniques, and I'll post the link if we get those techniques up on the web. Again, I'd love to see some more links to videos of throws to kicks, especially if they include pins after the throw.

I'm also trying to understand why people claim that these techniques are too dangerous to train. Specifically, could anybody elaborate upon this argument for me? Thanks


-Joe

Ian Hurst wrote: Boon, re take their balance on the kick - agree with you up to a point, but the problems in achieving this with an experienced kicker are great, especially if they keep to the low kicks or use short knee jabs when in close.

Ian,
A skill person in anything will definitely make the counter difficult, it is a universal law.

Try these drills and see how well they work out, OK.

1) To work on counter to knee jabs. Start with clinch. Don't look at your opponents' knee, look at his eyes or even close your eyes. Feel his body movement or shift. when you feel his balance shift, move your body (tai-sabaki) and apply principle of kuzushi. For example, your partner lifts up his right knee at you aiming your lower abdomen, shift your hips slightly either to the right or left and unbalance him just as his power begin to surge, nipping at the bud I would call it.. Sure you may get hit sometimes, but in training always start slow.

2) A low kick jab is a very logical application of kick. It is straight forward, almost unseen and very fast. Again, you have to look at his body balance shift. When someone wants to kick, he will/must shift his balance to the leg which will support the kicking leg. By watching his body shift, you can prepare/know which leg will be doing the kick. A straight leg jab is limited by the length of the kicker's leg and its recoil time. Shift your body movement to avoid the initial kick, and when he is recoiling, enter and apply the atemi-waza type tech with proper application of kuzushi.

I try my best to put my application to words, if it is not clear, I apologize as it very difficult to transform the action into words.

I have tried these principles on my fellow dojo mates and so far they work, but I have no Olympic TKD kicker nor Pro-Muay Thai fighter at my dojo to work on, so I will only say this work as far as general MArtist are concern.

Boon.

Boon, may I just say how nice it as not to hear "use the X block" or "get off the line and scoop" - I'll happily try (1), (2) I'm more skeptical on as the body shift is not that great, but willing to give it a go at some point.

I'm also trying to understand why people claim that these techniques are too dangerous to train. Specifically, could anybody elaborate upon this argument for me? Thanks

I don't think it's so much a problem for low kicks...uke tends not be as off-balance-able (word?) from those attacks...which is why they are so dangerous. From mid level to high kicks however, my experience is that if it is not a flick kick, but a power kick, and I enter strongly, and even just turn...it makes for a messy ukemi for uke. I mistakenly showed this enter and turn method to some newbies recently...the uke was completely off-balanced, did what for him was a pretty good recovery into ukemi, but never really put any energy into the lead hand for his front roll, and collapsed. Ouch. Got slapped by a san-dan for that one.

Yoshinkan uses a lot of direct entry with the elbow (sokomen irimi ni) for these kinds of things...the power of a good kick can make you enter pretty forcefully...which can lead to your elbow doing a little more damage than you intend. That, combined with the fact that if someone's leg is in mid-air, and you throw strongly, their head goes right to the mat. If uke's ukemi is instinctual, no problem usually, but if not...concussion city. Concussions aren't the worst of it though. Some people turn out of the throw naturally and try to front roll/breakfall. If events get ahead of them, I've seen people dislocate/separate their shoulder and even break their collar bone on batched front rolls.

By the by...x blocks are for wussies (just kidding), and I almost never bother with scooping, I want in and throw, down, hard. Scooping takes too much time in my opinion, and provides a base for a leg up knee or foot to the head (not kidding).

Best,
Ron (Of course this all assumes shite can pull it off...no doubt, there are good kickers who will pop me at least 5 out of 10 tries. But then, I'm not looking to compete in a ring against professionals.)

Ian Hurst wrote: Boon, may I just say how nice it as not to hear "use the X block" or "get off the line and scoop" - I'll happily try (1), (2) I'm more skeptical on as the body shift is not that great, but willing to give it a go at some point.

Ian,

What is a X-block?

As for the "get off the line and scoop", you can try that if it is a high level kick or if the kick is a round-house type where you can see the trajectory clearly. For a front low kick, it is quite difficult to apply successfully. Just scooping alone will not be sufficient, it should also include an atemi-waza type application e.g., gyakugamae-ate (sokumen irimi-nage)

Boon.

Hey Boon;

Gyakugamae-ate is good but Shomen-ate from the inside is better - mainly because of the ability to penetrate with the leading hand and effect a double kuzushi so to speak.

Hi Boon, the X block is with the arms crossed at the wrists or forearms normally projected at a downward angle for kicks and much beloved of several ma I've seen - arms vs shin... nice

Peter's already covered my objection to the scoop as I've more often seen it demonstrated with a movement away from the kick or an overly elaborate turn which would be impractical with a fast kick which is then drawn back for the next attack, more like a jab. Many demonstration purposes seem to leave the kicker suspended on one foot while nage does some beautiful move - meh.

One point in favor of scoops -- if you scoop as you irimi and sink (versus something like Mae-geri, a front kick or push kick), uke will fall down and go boom, hard.

Budd Yuhasz wrote: One point in favor of scoops -- if you scoop as you irimi and sink (versus something like Mae-geri, a front kick or push kick), uke will fall down and go boom, hard.

Yeah. Been there.

Ian Hurst wrote: Hi Boon, the X block is with the arms crossed at the wrists or forearms normally projected at a downward angle for kicks and much beloved of several ma I've seen - arms vs shin... nice.

Oh I see. My dojo has never taught us this block before... so I don't know about it, sorry. However, we use the X block for a different purpose... nami-juji-jime

Ian, one word of advice regarding the drill I mentioned earlier, go slow if the uke is naive towards this type of drill, yesterday I sprain a nidan's ankle while doing this. The fall can be very abrupt and heavy.

Boon.

Hello, I am making my first posting on AikiWeb forum on a very old thread. Please excuse me if that is not the way to go. The reason for this however is that the subject (Aikido and kick) of this thread is something I have been working on for the past three years. This work and research was very interesting and has led to writing of a book concerning this very interesting subject which will probably be published in october 2008

The opinions expressed in this thread are not very different from the others I have encountered during my internet research into this subject. There are a number of things which I have found in the past years which I would welcome any reaction to:

• I have found no Aikikai Aikido dojo's incorporating Keri-waza in their curriculum as a fixed part of aikido training. I am still curious if there are any schools around which do have that;
• Ukemi is not al that difficult. In dealing with Keri-waza we have made a division in three ways of dealing with a kick (before applying technique): Te-waza (parrying with the hands), Ashi-waza (parrying with your own legs) and Ashi-dori (catching the leg) Only in Ashi Dori does ukemi really change. And it is just a question of training.
• Regular Aikido training does not prepare one automatically for Keri-waza training. The similarities between regular aikido attacks and Keri-waza are not enough.
• The techniques applied to Keri-waza are essentially the same as regular techniques.

By training in Keri-waza uke and tori become more complete budoka. I believe that we should training Keri-waza in a structured way. And I have learned (and recorded that in the book) that it is not that difficult to find a good way to train these techniques.

If anyone has an opinion on any part of my posting I would welcome hearing from you.

Mark

Hi,

Christian Tissier Shihan ist teaching aikido techniques against keri-waza on a regular base.

With his 2 DVDs showing his kihon waza he also has published a third one which is called "variations et applications" and shows those techniques and their connections to the "regular" techniques.
You can see a kind of trailer here.

We are doing techniques against keri waza. Not often, but regularly.

Carsten

As a 3rd degree in Tae Kwon Do I can tell you a well placed kick can be devastating. However, I believe as an Aikidoka that we should learn how to perform a well placed low and middle height front and side kick but leave the spinning stuff alone unless you have the time to invest. Spinning kicks are extremely powerful, but difficult to control, and easy to take down if you are a well trained Aikidoka. THAT is the weakness in kicking and the strength of Aikido. The kick is a single point of balance with the body in motion and that precarious position is exactly where I want my attacker to be in so I can take his balance and perform my technique.
In taking Ukemi the kick and response must be slow and I would recommend only those who have some experience should be doing it. I cringe when even my Sensei uses me to demonstrate kick defense because one little mistake can be damaging. A fall from waist high straight down onto your hip with the person hanging onto your leg is not where you want to be. Therefore, emphasize letting the person's leg go and Uke should go for the roll not the drop!!
IMHO
Doc

Besides the challenging ukemi, one reason not to spend a lot of time training against kicks is that very few people can do them competently. Ever see a fight where someone tried to kick? It's funny. It's a lot easier to learn effective hand techniques than it is to learn effective kicks, and untrained people trying to kick are really quite ineffective.

I'd love to try some kicking ukemi -- I trained in TKD and shotokan. Maybe I'll ask Sensei to help me with that. Lots of carnage potential as Doc says.

Dear Mary and Randy, thanks four your responses. Certainly from TKD and Karate aficionados input is welcome.

@ Randy: I think that, as far as ukemi is concerned, it is question of getting used to new forms (as in any ukemi form). "My" regular uke's have gotten so used to the forms that ukemi is no problem. So training is very fluent actually. When teaching to newcomers we take it step by step: just like training regular Aikido. In our research we have limited ourselves to basic Mae-geri en Mawashi-geri (middle and low). No spinning anything. K.I.S.S. so to speak.

@Mary:

one reason not to spend a lot of time training against kicks is that very few people can do them competently

I would say that is exactly the reason we should spend time on training against kicks. It is a basic attack form, it is one of the basic human weapons which can be used very effectively. I have been in fights were people tried to kick and I didn't experience it as being particularly funny. Legs have larger impact and longer reach, it is actually easier to hit people with a kick and do damage to them without hurting yourself. I would say a good side lowkick is much easier than a hook punch. (I must add that in Europe we play soccer a lot so a lot of the street bullies one would encounter now how to kick). But the fact that street bullies kick or not is not actually the issue. The issue (to me) is that a kick is such a logical form of attack (much more logical than ushiro kata dori or any of the many grabbing forms of attack we practice) that I think if we consider Aikido to be a martial art, we should train at this basic form of attack as well.

Once again, thanks for your replies!

Mark

Roosvelt Freeman wrote: "Why don't we train techniques against kicks?" Actually the same question was asked by a student to O Sensei. O sensei smiled and said "you try". The student lifted his foot to do a kick. O Sensei stepped on his skirt. The student fell and broke his hip. No more questions about kicks anymore in the dojo.

Why did anyone train with this guy? He was arrogant jerk.

So we should actually stop wearing hakama's is that what you are trying to say?

And by the by: how do you manage to break your hip from falling due to your hakama being stepped on? That must have been the worst uke ever!

On a more serious note: There are a number of silly anecdotes flying around that are used to ridicule and disqualify certain aspects of training like Keri-waza. If people choose to use them to close their minds and hide behind this supposed O Sensei wisdom, them that is of course their choice.

Mark Stokmans wrote: Ukemi is not al that difficult. Mark

Communication on internet is not easy, we know other person only from what they are writing.

From your post I think you don't know how to kick. And also, you've never experienced correct kick. Otherwise you would never write such bizarre things like 'parrying with the hands' or 'catching the leg' - ask 3rd dan TKD to attack you and try to catch his leg LOL!!!!!!!. You are dreaming my friend............

I agree 100% with Randy - looks like he knows what he is talking about.

Ukemi after kick is very difficult. Nage doesn't have much control to help uke fall down. That happens for many reasons:
1. Because the distance is rather big, irimi must be very deep and entry very fast - nage simply doesn't have time to take care of uke later.
2. if timing is rihgt, uke falls down in the moment of contact - as with kick there is not much contact, nage can't help uke execute safe fall.
3. Techniques against kick are very direct and linear - for reason not to create too much opening for counter. So once the attacks become difficult, uke must have really excellent gymnastic skills to safely fall down - there is not place at all to turn hips in preparation to land. It is very easy to injure head or shoulder by yourself.

For sure, ukemi skills can be built to deal with those issues, but it takes a lot of time.

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: Ukemi after kick is very difficult. Nage doesn't have much control to help uke fall down.

Why does nage have to help uke to fall down? I recall you wrote interesting things about the ukemi of Tissier senseis ukes.

I hate ukemi after kicking. But that is only my problem. Not the problem of nage. So what are you talking about?

Carsten

Mark Stokmans wrote: D @Mary: I would say that is exactly the reason we should spend time on training against kicks.

Why would you spend time training against a type of attack that you're very unlikely to encounter except as an incompetent and ineffective execution? Oh, I've seen plenty of people try to use them in a fight; hey, they've seen the chop sockey flicks too, they know that when you get in a fight you're supposed to kick. In reality, though, what you'll see is something like this.

"You want me to show you tough? I'll show you tough."