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bratzo_barrena 12-01-2005 02:10 PM

Aikido and kicks
 
Why most Aikido dojos don't train techniques against kicks?
There are two common answers that people get. and both are very stupid
1. it's dangerous for uke to take ukemi. Uke must be very good with ukemi.
If we accept this as a good reason, we could think: taking ukemi for shihonage is very dangerous if uke doesn't know how to do it, so maybe we shouldn't practice shihonage. Or taking ukemi for iriminage could be dangerous, maybe we shouldn't practice iriminage. Actually aikido is pretty dangerous if uke doesn't know how to take ukemi, maybe we shouldn't practice aikido at all.
This kind of reasoning is silly. Not practicing Aikido techniques against kicks for this reason is wrong.
If uke isn't prepared to take ukemi from a kick, then the practice must be progressive until uke can take ukemi properly. But not practicing at all means uke will never develop this skill.

2. Against kicks, aikido uses the same principles as with other attacks.
though this is 100% true, it's also true that the way a leg is manipulated to achieve control or make a projection differs from an arm, head, or other part. So practicing against kick is important to learn how to manipulate a leg, how can one disrupt ukes balance using the leg as leverage, how the joints of the leg can be locked or pinned, etc.
So even though the basic principles of Aikido are the same, we must be aware that the different parts of the body need to be manipulated differently.

Another reason I think why is important to train against kicks is a mental and spiritual one. Aikido not only trains the body, also the mind and spirit.
(important: I don't mean Mind and Spirit in a religious or metaphysical fashion. I refer as Mind the capability to analise an attack, process the information and take the best possible response, with practice this process becomes unconscious though. I refer to Spirit as the way one person confronts a situation. Under attack one can freeze or become so scared that he/she can't react properly (weak spirit), or one can face the attack calmly, which gives more possibilities of success (strong spirit)

If an Aikidoka has never faced kicks, is probable he/she might be unsecured, even scared when facing them, because he/she doesn't know what to do. training against kicks prepares your mind and spirit to feel confident that you have trained for that situation and that your training will pay off. This confident state of mind is important to confront any situation, even if at the you succeed or you don't.

Bratzo Barrena
Instructor Aikido Goshin Dojo
Doral, Florida

odudog 12-01-2005 02:21 PM

Re: Aikido and kicks
 
I too think that we need to learn against kicks. The first style of Aikido that I learned taught a little bit about kicks. But, with that said, you must be very good at ukemi to practice against this with some kind of proficiency / realism. They way that I practice currently, uke's leg that is the closest to nage is the leg that should hit the mat first. However, if nage is holding that leg due to a kick then uke is more prone to fall flat on his/her back and not have time to curve the spin so to dissipate the thud gradually throughout the back hence the danger.

bratzo_barrena 12-01-2005 02:34 PM

Re: Aikido and kicks
 
hi Mike,
one advise
when tori is holding one of uke's legs and projects, uke needs to turn the body so he/she falls sided, on the side of the leg that tori is not holding, use your arm to slap the mat to cushion the fall. Try to never fall flat on your back.

Bratzo Barrena
Head-Instructor
Aikido Goshin Dojo
Doral, FL

roosvelt 12-01-2005 02:52 PM

Re: Aikido and kicks
 
"Why don't we train techniques against kicks?"

Actually the same question was asked by a student to O Sensei. O sensei smiled and said "you try". The student lifted his foot to do a kick. O Sensei stepped on his skirt. The student fell and broke his hip. No more questions about kicks anymore in the dojo.

akiy 12-01-2005 03:06 PM

Re: Aikido and kicks
 
Quote:

Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
Actually the same question was asked by a student to O Sensei. O sensei smiled and said "you try". The student lifted his foot to do a kick. O Sensei stepped on his skirt. The student fell and broke his hip. No more questions about kicks anymore in the dojo.

Interesting story! Do you have a source for it?

I've been to seminars with aikido shihan wherein both kicks are utilized as both uke and nage. Fun stuff.

-- Jun

roosvelt 12-01-2005 03:14 PM

Re: Aikido and kicks
 
Quote:

Jun Akiyama wrote:
Interesting story! Do you have a source for it?

-- Jun

Fresh out from Roosvelt's rumor mill. And I have two independent sources to verify my story. For obvious reason, i can't tell you the name of my sources.

Derek Gaudet 12-01-2005 03:14 PM

Re: Aikido and kicks
 
Quote:

Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
"Why don't we train techniques against kicks?"

Actually the same question was asked by a student to O Sensei. O sensei smiled and said "you try". The student lifted his foot to do a kick. O Sensei stepped on his skirt. The student fell and broke his hip. No more questions about kicks anymore in the dojo.

I like that story :D ... In my Aikido dojo we trained against kicks, anything from straight on kicks to spin kicks. This is probably due to the fact that in my area there are a lot of karate and Tae Kwon Do schools, so chances are if you need to defend yourself, the guy (or gal) may be a kicker. At any given time about 75-80 % of our dojo had trained in a kicking art. It is a whole new ball game when you have to get inside the circle of someone who is a skilled kicker. But with enough practice it can be done. The trick is exactly what O Sensei demonstarted in that story, cut the kick of before it leaves the ground.

James Davis 12-01-2005 03:18 PM

Re: Aikido and kicks
 
One down side, is you'll have to make time to train for kicking.

crbateman 12-01-2005 04:13 PM

Re: Aikido and kicks
 
O'Sensei's counter was an interesting one, but not particularly practical. Unless you are in a drag bar or dating my ex-wife, the person kicking you will probably not be wearing a skirt... :D (And given the choice, do yourself a favor and pick the drag bar.)

Jerry Miller 12-01-2005 04:26 PM

Re: Aikido and kicks
 
We train against kicks. Nothing too complicated but it is a requirement.

Joe Jutsu 12-01-2005 05:27 PM

Re: Aikido and kicks
 
I'm being tested over three arts of Keri waza on my ikkyu test this coming wednesday. It's fun stuff, but we don't have any great kickers in my dojo, so I wouldn't say that this is preparing me to take on some bad ass TKD kicker, but it does give me an idea of what it would be like, or perhaps better put what I would do in that situation

Joe

Dominic Toupin 12-01-2005 09:58 PM

Re: Aikido and kicks
 
In Yoseikan Aikido, we train to kick and we have a lot of ashi tori waza (leg take-down or leg projection). I think that kick can be a very useful atemi too...

xuzen 12-01-2005 11:00 PM

Re: Aikido and kicks
 
Hello B. Barrena,

It is a good idea to learn to apply aikido or aiki-principles on non-traditional scenarios or to explore it outside its conventional curriculum. However, as far as my dojo is concern, we ran into some obstacles.

1) Among the core students that are in our dojo, non are trained kickers. We do learn to defend against kicks, but as non of us are extremely good kickers hence our nage are not able to give us the full range of kicking motion to explore with.

2) From our limited knowledge of how to handle kicks, we conclude that the most efficient method of dealing with kicks is the same as how we deal with hands attacks. I.e., no fancy stuff; move out of its trajectory, apply atemi to distract then followed by kuzushi (balance breaking). Once you get him down, you can then move on to the typical osae (immobilization) finish, if you so desire.

2) Not many of our students are comfortable with taking ukemi from kicks, at least not from full fighting speed, not since we had a TKD player vs our adjutant sensei fiasco. The TKD guy was sparring with our people and my adjutant sensei duck and apply what looks like sukui nage and sent the TKD guy back out with a limp. I attributed this to the inept ability of the TKD guy to take proper ukemi. After that, most of the students are afraid to kick and ukemi from that height.

My point is, although in theory it is good to practice how to deal with kicks, in a typical aikido dojo there are just not too many trained kickers to train with; good kickers with good ukemi skill are hard to find asset (at least in my dojo).

As for me, I am a terrible kicker, mae geri is my only type of kick which has any usefulness in it. I personally like to have two feet for balance as oppose to one. Should I want a longer striking range or harder strike, I prefer to use my trusted good friend, the Jo.

Boon.

Keith R Lee 12-01-2005 11:11 PM

Re: Aikido and kicks
 
There are a couple examples of "aiki" style responses to kicks in this video of a buddy and I:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...13248&q=aikido

We were trying to find some type of "aiki" response to kicks, but I think we were pretty unsuccessful realistically. Against someone who does not know how to kick, you're probably okay. But when someone does know how to kick, I'd throw any sort of Aikido techniques out the door, other than evasion.

Trained kickers are too dangerous. And I'm not talkin fancy spinning-jumping-roundhouse-split kicks. I'm talking Thai-style leg kicks, roundhouses, and front stop kicks. Anything other than these are superfluous anyway.If someone knows how to do these kick well and bring some power, there will be no "blending" going on. Either block, or get the hell out of the way.

James Kelly 12-01-2005 11:34 PM

Re: Aikido and kicks
 
Quote:

Clark Bateman wrote:
O'Sensei's counter was an interesting one, but not particularly practical. Unless you are in a drag bar or dating my ex-wife, the person kicking you will probably not be wearing a skirt... :D (And given the choice, do yourself a favor and pick the drag bar.)

ok, that was funny...

justin 12-02-2005 01:07 AM

Re: Aikido and kicks
 
if aikido is to teach us to prepare against a street attack how many thugs out there would apply true ma kicking ability not many i would assume, i come from a wado ryu background so kicking when requried in my dojo isnt a problem i however see a lot of strains when you see people not trained trying to copy these kind of attacks.

James Davis 12-02-2005 10:09 AM

Re: Aikido and kicks
 
Interestingly enough, we had one of our Tae Kwon Do roommates stay late for an aikido class last night. He had some ukemi training, so Sensei had us defend against kicks. He had us in hanmi handachi, so nobody had to kick really high or fall from a great height. We brushed aside the front snap kick and wrapped our hands around uke's calf and shin (no grab, just wrapped around). After the fall, we applied pressure to the tsubo in the inner thigh. Fun stuff. :) I think it would be unpleasant from a greater height. I saw one of my sempai scoop a karateka's ankle and just ENTER. He irimied right into the guy and sent him back quite a ways. He didn't try to kick him anymore.

Eric Webber 12-02-2005 10:20 AM

Re: Aikido and kicks
 
We also practice kicks at our dojo, we use basic aiki principles and modify the details of the technique to fit the kick, the kicker, and the nage. Lots 'o fun, especially with experienced kickers.

jonreading 12-02-2005 10:55 AM

Re: Aikido and kicks
 
Working with kicks is important to training, and should not be neglected. That said, I do feel that kicking is considerably more dangerous as an attack then many of the practiced attacks in aikido. I feel this way for reasons:
1. Most dojo do not have a significant amount of proficient kickers. This creates danger for the student kicking (strains, tears, skeletal damage, not to mention an unplanned fall) and for the student receiving the kick (i.e. getting kicked). As a result, many dojo remove kicking from their curriculum.
2. The ukemi from kicking is more difficult. Hand techniques usually place the fulcrum of the technique near uke's head and vital organs. The closer uke's head is to the fulcrum of a technique, the less energy that body part has to disperse. Kicking techniques usually place uke's head and vital organs farther away for the fulcrum, so there is more energy to disperse.

To address the original post, I think that there are good reasons to exclude kicking from dojo curriculum, especially if the instructor or students are incapable of kicking and taking ukemi from kicks. Does that give those individuals permission to exclude kicking from aikido? No. But, sometimes instructors are afraid to admit that kicking is beyond their capability and guise that inability in the form of, "there is no kicking in aikido."

justin 12-02-2005 12:51 PM

Re: Aikido and kicks
 
Quote:

James Davis, Jr. wrote:
Interestingly enough, we had one of our Tae Kwon Do roommates stay late for an aikido class last night. He had some ukemi training, so Sensei had us defend against kicks. He had us in hanmi handachi, so nobody had to kick really high or fall from a great height. We brushed aside the front snap kick and wrapped our hands around uke's calf and shin (no grab, just wrapped around). After the fall, we applied pressure to the tsubo in the inner thigh. Fun stuff. :) I think it would be unpleasant from a greater height. I saw one of my sempai scoop a karateka's ankle and just ENTER. He irimied right into the guy and sent him back quite a ways. He didn't try to kick him anymore.


i kinda follow you but dont get the bit where you brush aside a front snap kick ? a maegeri fully deployed wouldnt be brushed aside with ease, or i could missing something here

bratzo_barrena 12-02-2005 12:58 PM

Re: Aikido and kicks
 
For some of the answers I've read on my thread, I've discover two new stupid, illogical answer to why in Aikido there should be no practice against kicks:

1. The possibilities of being attack by somebody proficient in kicks is very low.
let me remaind all of you who think this way, that is even less probable taht anyone will ever be attacked by a proficient swordsman. So in Aikido the practice of techniques against swords (bokken) should be prohited?
I guess those who use this argument as a valid one use the same logic and do not practice techniques against bokken attack either, Don't you?

2. Very few aikidoist know how to kick proficiently.
Yes, it's true. Also very few are proficient boxers, so, we should stop the practice of techniques against punches? That's just stupid.
As the uke doesn't need to be an excelent boxer for tori to practice techniques against punches, nor uke needs to be a superb kicker.
Those who think this is a valid argument, I guess only accept in their dojos, or train with professional boxers, master grapplers, and excelent kickers, and don't consider as uke to anyone who doesn't have all these skills, don't you?


Bratzo Barrena
Instructor Aikido Goshin Dojo
Doral, FL

ikkitosennomusha 12-02-2005 12:59 PM

Re: Aikido and kicks
 
I was tought 4 major ways to defend against kicks. The ukemi was very safe and it is always fun to train for this!

odudog 12-02-2005 01:29 PM

Re: Aikido and kicks
 
I just remembered something. About 2 weeks ago my dojo-cho was teaching an Aikido technique that he says was a throwback. You enter {irimi} but you atemi the uke with your entire body with your shoulder doing the leading. He said that this technique was his introduction to Aikido. He saw Aikido performed once and wanted to see if this thing was for real for he couldn't believe what he saw{he is a black belt in Shotokan}. So on his first day at an Aikido dojo he decided to attack an Aikido yudansha with a kick and this technique was performed on him. He said that he flew back so far and hard that it literally scared the crap out of him. He almost immediately walked out of the dojo to never return.

bratzo_barrena 12-02-2005 01:37 PM

Re: Aikido and kicks
 
so he/she never returned... so? are you implying that as a reason to not training against kicks?
I don't think the problem was Aikido, he/she was the problem. He/she doesn't have the will to train. What was he/she specting from a martial art, to get a kiss?
You wrote he/she was an advanced karateka, or was other martial art? anyway, Didn't he/she ever get a good kick or punch there? or maybe that's why he/she also left that martial art?
Maybe he/she should try ballet. But wait... he/she can get an injure there too. maybe he/she should never get of the bed, that coul be safer

odudog 12-02-2005 01:59 PM

Re: Aikido and kicks
 
Mr. Barrena, you missed the part where I said "...my dojo-cho" and "...almost immediately walked out...". He did stay, in fact, he switched over to Aikido. He became a 4th dan this year and his instructor {6th dan} said that the promotion was waaaaaayyyyy over due.


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