The downfall of Aikido?

Jaime McGrath wrote: Aiki-MooseHunting $49.95

It's all about chasing the MU.

The only thing that will lead to the downfall of aikido is students who spend too much time criticizing teachers rather than getting off of their butts and finding an appropriate teacher and then training diigently.

A "serious martial artist" will not be influenced one way or another by a golf/ki scheme. A "serious martial artist" finds good teachers, trains hard, and doesn't get all bent out of shape in the course of pointless discussions.

If a "serious martial artist" wants to train with Tank, he'll go find Tank and train with him — he won't sit around talking about it.

Anna Thompson (YEME) wrote: you americans crack me up.

We crack ourselves up. As they say: Once you get past the surface of fake tinsel, you'll find real tinsel!

Anna Thompson (YEME) wrote: next there'll be drive thru dojo's opening up in vegas.

...and sensei on roller skates.

Anna Thompson (YEME) wrote: buy ki for 5.95.

Sorry, Tohei Koichi has already been there.

Anna Thompson (YEME) wrote: by the way...wouldn't the hakama impair putting a little?

What's your point. HAKAMA impair bipedalism in aikido, too.

Peter A Goldsbury (Peter Goldsbury) wrote: Perhaps this is something of a local difficulty. Over here in my part of the world, some people who are fanatical about golf also do aikido and I am sure they blend the two together in some way. They just don't make videos and talk about it. Suggesting that this will lead to the downfall of aikido is perhaps an over statement. I think the problem here is the opposite: aikido, especially as it is practised in large organizations, tends to be part of the political establishment. Best regards,

Seijiro Masuda (Aikikai Hombu) will talk to you for hours about Aikido and golf - if you let him .

Although there were a number of things that I disagreed with in the Aiki Expo demonstrations, I appreciated the spirit of innovation and freshness that was present - something often lacking in Japanese Aikido. Most new things probably won't work out so well - doesn't mean that they shouldn't be tried.

Best,

Chris

Robert Rumpf wrote: When or if they grow up, open their eyes, and wake up, then perhaps they are more likely to actually get a clue at Aikido faster

Your ignorance is astounding, sir.

Someone needs a reality check, and that someone is you.

Yikes! I stand (well, actually I'm sitting down at the moment) corrected. Duly noted that everyone would be equally willing to laugh at a guy in a hakama on a golf course.

So here's the joke. Dig out your copy of "Book of Ki: Co-ordinating Mind and Body in Daily Life" by Koichi Tohei (paperback, Japan Publications, 1976) and turn to page 58, in the section "How to Raise Your Handicap in Golf." ... and pages 59, 60 & 61.

LOL

Sharon

So here's the joke. Dig out your copy of "Book of Ki: Co-ordinating Mind and Body in Daily Life" by Koichi Tohei (paperback, Japan Publications, 1976) and turn to page 58, in the section "How to Raise Your Handicap in Golf." ... and pages 59, 60 & 61.

First, I admit to thinking that that is pretty silly (without reading it, even). Second, it's more about the style of the website than it is about the idea that Aikido and golf have what to offer one another. Nobody laughs at The Inner Game of Tennis (or at least I've never heard them laughing)

Aleksey wrote: Your ignorance is astounding, sir. Someone needs a reality check, and that someone is you.

Aleksey, sometimes you are very amusing, but I thought this was just rude. Also, I have no idea what you mean.

Michael, you might want to consider one other thing as well: that a "serious martial artist" with "a lot of physical talent" who cannot see the applicability behind these softer takes on the art is liable to miss a lot of the subtleties of Aikido as well. Such a person is not helpful on the mat for a long, long time, but more a hindrance. They also seem to plateau fairly readily as well even if they suffer through training for a while. When or if they grow up, open their eyes, and wake up, then perhaps they are more likely to actually get a clue at Aikido faster, instead of spending the first 1-2 years of their training wrestling on the mat instead of actually learning Aikido. I'm not suggesting this isn't healthy for them, but it is not necessarily healthy for those of us who serve as makiwara.

Oh my god come down off of your arrogant pedestal. I was not even talking about any experience in our dojo, in fact I think our dojo is quite the opposite of what I am criticizing. But I see now that you obviously have some issues about what goes on there.

The funny thing is that when I started Aikido I was quite skinny and very out of shape and was knocked around easily by bigger members of the dojo. When I got stronger I was able to keep my balance much better and handle bigger people when doing techniques, this had alot to do with strength not softness. Softness is fine but strength can be just as important. Now that I am stronger and more capable there are small few in our dojo that whine when I do not always follow their script. A few times in last couple months my partners resisted my techniques and when I did it in return they would look at me like I was crazy.

No the art of Aikido is not going to die because of the Kiai golf website but it certainly does not benefit from it. And I have to say that, along with Rob's patronizing, I think it might be the final nail in the coffin for Aikido for me at least. I like my school and my instructor but beyond that I don't see much hope for the my interest in Aikido when huge Aikido events like the Aikdo Expo trot these kind of weirdos out to demonstrate their Ki electric golf swing. And it also not promising to hear such arrogance coming from a senior member of my dojo.

So I guess I am off to hang with the dumb uncivilized child like cro magnums in Judo. I was sort of not sure about Aikido lately anyway so this has helped push me in the right direction.

Sometimes you need a little nudge to go where you really should and I think this all what I really needed.

Michael,

Although I agree completely with everything that you wrote in this thread, you might want to reconsider basing life-altering decisions on something originated on the Internet.

Even if the Internet thing is the last straw, that is not how it should be.

Internet flame-wars on the forums should play absolutely no role in affecting your judgment. Forum wars stay on the forums.

Once you log out, thats where they stay.

About Aiki Expo, it is quite clear that Mr. Stanley Pranin is a businessman, and he's making $$ from these events.

Everyone survives how they can, but of course I would prefer if that didn't involve making a laughingstock out of Aikido.

I don't think I'm the only one who looked in disbelief at that "Sensei" in green uniform who is probably forbidden from crossing certain bridges due to weight safety limits.

Fortunately there are still some good demonstrations of Aikido out there. I have a clip on my hard drive of some third-world country 3rd dans doing a nice little demo.

They even (gasp) do some punching !

Anyway... I hope that there will always be at least a niche for martially inclined.

I'm sure that even in the most flowery dojo there's still a couple of guys who know each other well and go beyond the "prescribed" training.

Ahem. Lost my train of thought there.

Well anyway, I bid you good evening.

Saw the demo at the Expo, some nice stuff. I might not combine the two, but hey that's me. Worry less about what others are doing and more about how you personally represent the art. I think the downfall of Aikido is too much discusssion about what other people should or shouldn't do. Now everyone bow in and get back on the mats.

Sharon Seymour wrote: Yikes! I stand (well, actually I'm sitting down at the moment) corrected. Duly noted that everyone would be equally willing to laugh at a guy in a hakama on a golf course. So here's the joke. Dig out your copy of "Book of Ki: Co-ordinating Mind and Body in Daily Life" by Koichi Tohei (paperback, Japan Publications, 1976) and turn to page 58, in the section "How to Raise Your Handicap in Golf." ... and pages 59, 60 & 61. LOL Sharon

News flash: the rest of the world does not define everything that passes before their eyes in term of sexism or some bitter feminist ideology. You introduced a completely irrelevant note of whiny PC victimhood into the discussion and people rightly called you to task for it. The mere association of Aikido and golf elsewhere is as irrelevant to the concerns behind the criticism as sexism was. You give the impression of primarily wanting to maintain a sense your own sanctimony - leaving both the original substance of this conversation and the critiques of your intrusion into it as peripheral concerns.

Kevin,

Sharon withdrew her 'sexism' complaint, the appropriate response to that is 'cool, thanks', rather than your diatribe. When you've made the sale, stop selling!

Sharon,

Cool, thanks.

Sean

x

Sean,

I think your sarcasm detector is broken, perhaps among other things. That was no withdrawl.

Oh my god come down off of your arrogant pedestal.

..says the 5th kyu who was arrogant enough to start this thread by ridiculing a 5th dan on a public forum. A 5th dan who is friends with a 7th dan who comes across country to teach here annually out of kindness.

And it also not promising to hear such arrogance coming from a senior member of my dojo.

Sorry to disappoint you. Since we don't train together often, I'm surprised that anything I do or say affects you much at all.

By the way, the reason I cited the 1-2 years above was that that was about how long it took me to get past the wrestling that I used to do - and I notice that that seems to be about the same time it has taken some others, too. Fortunately, my first partners didn't hold it against me once I realized what I was doing.

In my post you'll note that I didn't say anything at all about our dojo in particular, but was commenting on what I observed in all of the dojos I'd trained in, to one extent or another.

..says the 5th kyu who was arrogant enough to start this thread by ridiculing a 5th dan on a public forum.

Point of order. My impression is this thread was started as criticism of someone's actions not the individual.

From my perspective, it appears that personal attacks have started with your previous post and have been directed at Michael --- as far as the interplay betwix the two of you have begun.

If you feel that Michael has made a personal attack against Zimron, could you point it out? We may have a different perspective on something previously said.

Regards,

Paul

some would consider finger pointing and laughing in disbelief as a "personal attack"

Aleksey wrote: Anyway... I hope that there will always be at least a niche for martially inclined.

Me, too. Indeed, I hope it is always large enough for the martially inclined to feel that they have a proper home in Aikido, bless their little hearts.

Jo,

some would consider finger pointing and laughing in disbelief as a "personal attack"

I guess I don't see it that way. I saw that as someone laughing at someone's actions (did you see what they just did?), not the individual (look at that clown!).

In any event, I'm not concerned with Michael's actions towards Zimron so much as I'm concerned about Robert's actions towards Michael.

As I see it, both fellows train in the same place. Michael has expressed an opinion. Robert disagreed and did so in a way that Michael found patronizing. (Now, to be frank, I don't see it that way, but as both people know each other, I conceed that my perspective may be off). In any event, Michael again disagrees. Robert then personally attacks Michael.

Facts:

1. Robert responded only to Michael, and not to the others that objected to Robert's point of view

2. Robert knows Michael and they train at the same place

3. Robert played the "rank" card

Does anyone think that there is cause for concern in this interaction, or am I over-reacting?

Please advise,

Paul

I have to add my agreement with Jaime and Paw regarding not only the website but also the interplay between Robert and Michael.

1. Websites are in the public domain, anyone does have the right to review and critique them. As the website in question draws upon aikido, this forum seems a reasonable place to take a sounding (and provide some of the less spiritually advanced golf-haters amongst us some amusement).

2. If Michael had intimated anything about the sensei's aikido and or rank (rather than the aikido/golf cross-over marketing) - then the rank card may (and only may) have been an appropriate response.

To quote the Adams family, "dirty pool" Robert, opinions are still a personal perogative (well at least until Jun says otherwise...)

Ah... I see Aikiweb is in fine form today ;/

Jaxon Brown (jaxonbrown) wrote: But anyway, I fear this kind of 'pop' aikido. People who are into the zen/yoga/chickory-coffee scene are already bored with meditation and breathing exercises. I sure hope it doesn't catch on.

Fess up. You've not been paying attention to recent trends ;-)

(or do we need another rousing chorus of kumbaya my lord?)

Seesh. I take it you folks aren't versed in the advertising style of Missrs Sonnon, Furey, and Tsatsouline. Golf club - tame in comparison to the "How would George Bush train to beat up Saddam?" ad Furey ran.

Just saw that Bush vs. Saddam ad. Gawd is that sad.

Incidentally, the Power Wheel is not a unicycle, and it was not designed by Furey - he was just re-selling them. The device was designed by Jon Hinds of Lifeline USA, and as far as I know, it predates all the other rollout wheels. The main exercises you can do with the wheel - rollouts, pike-ups, and bridges - aren't bad exercises. Whether you think the device is worth $50 may be another matter... You can do rollouts with a barbell or a much cheaper device, but the ones in which your feet are strapped on are unique to the Power Wheel.

Will someone please show me where I attacked Michael personally in my first post. I addressed the post to him personally, but in no way made any mention of his Aikido, personality, the Aikido of any particular dojo, or anything that one would usually talk trash about..

I addressed Michael personally because he began the thread. His subsequent posts as well were the most vehement - stating how much it all pissed him off, etc. Perhaps this is an etiquette issue that I should keep in mind, so sorry if the personal address (which was construed as a personal attack, for some reason) offended.

As I see it, both fellows train in the same place. Michael has expressed an opinion. Robert disagreed and did so in a way that Michael found patronizing. (Now, to be frank, I don't see it that way, but as both people know each other, I conceed that my perspective may be off).

I'm with you up to this point. I don't know why you criticized my first post if you "didn't see it that way" to begin with, but ok.

Michael and I train together, but we don't know each other personally, and have so far as I recall never exchanged any sort of disparaging remarks in the dojo or out of it, until this. There is no torrid interpersonal history involved, to my knowledge.

I even respect his sincerity, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with him or keep silent.

In any event, Michael again disagrees.

By calling me arrogant, as well as blaming a post I made on a web forum for part of his disallusionment with Aikido all within a brutally sarcastic and unfriendly post. But, as you said, this doesn't concern you.

Robert then personally attacks Michael.

I called his stance arrogant, no more, no less. This is after provocation, too. I stand by that remark. If that's an attack (on his person, and not on his actions - whatever that means), then it is no less an attack than the ones that started this thread against someone who isn't even here to defend themselves, and I think its justified.

If it is "pulling the rank card" to say that someone who chooses to mix Aikido and golf after having more than ten years experience in both should be given the benefit of the doubt, than call me guilty.

If you said that O'Sensei was a moron for playing with a fan, or that Tohei Sensei was silly for also talking about golf and Aikido (oh wait, that's been said here too) and you've only been training for a fraction of the time they have trained for, then yeah.. I'd play the "rank card" again, and feel just fine about it. Its a matter of relative experience; I don't think that differential can be taken lightly.

I would think that a true abuse of the "the rank card" would be me saying I was correct due to my own rank relative to his. I have not done this.

Apparently mentioning rank at all is unacceptable behavior. I'll keep that in mind. I was merely using it (in this case) as a shorthand for time served in the art of Aikido. It often is related to this, I'm told.

It is also interesting to me that the mention of Tohei-sensei's rank in other posts as a portion of a rebuttal did not occasion this response.

Does the 10th-dan rank have the cachet to be worth mentioning, but a 5th-dan rank does not?

Robert Rumpf wrote: ..says the 5th kyu who was arrogant enough to start this thread by ridiculing a 5th dan on a public forum. A 5th dan who is friends with a 7th dan who comes across country to teach here annually out of kindness. Sorry to disappoint you. Since we don't train together often, I'm surprised that anything I do or say affects you much at all.

A big part of our dojo is not placing importance on rank, in fact it is the very first point our instructor makes to new students. Funny how you like to put alot of emphasis on rank both here and in the dojo. Your comments have made me think about why you wear a brown belt in a dojo that uses only white & black, it has not dawned on me until now.

As others here have noted I was pointing out what I thought was absurd about the Kiai golf not trying to offer technical instruction on Aikido to a 5th Dan. In fact, I think the majority of people feel the same way I do about it. I may have overeacted some but it just because I simply have had enough of this kind of stuff.

The organizational politics that Peter A Goldsbury mentions reflects the endless fads & ego gratification, like the kiai golf stuff, that causes and endless splintering into new groups.

What purpose does the following serve but to pad ones resume and make one seem more important? Was being affiliated with Frank Doran not enough that she must associate herself with these nuts?

2001 Appointed Aikido Division Head for Juko-Kai USA by the Founder/Soke Dr. Rod Sacharnowski.

http://www.kiaigolf.com/jamie.shtm

There are at least 17 separate Aikido umbrella organizations in America alone, worldwide they are almost uncountable. This speaks volumes. This does not even take into account all of the independent dojos.

How can Aikido grow in this kind of atmosphere? in my view it will only continue to degenerate.

Internet flame-wars on the forums should play absolutely no role in affecting your judgment. Forum wars stay on the forums.

Believe me that this discussion is not what is pushing my decision, it is something I have been thinking about for a while. I think I will take a break from Aikido for some time and if I find that I miss it I will return. I know that I will miss the people at my dojo and my instructor but I don't think I should stay with Aikido if it is not right for me.

I will keep with Judo and maybe try out BJJ and if I find that I like Aikido better and can deal with the baggage that come along with it then I will come back to it.

When or if they grow up, open their eyes, and wake up, then perhaps they are more likely to actually get a clue at Aikido faster, instead of spending the first 1-2 years of their training wrestling on the mat instead of actually learning Aikido

Rob, when you say the above when directly addressing me by name it it really appears that you are directing those remarks towards me.

Robert Rumpf wrote: Does the 10th-dan rank have the cachet to be worth mentioning, but a 5th-dan rank does not?

Well, to be honest, I was inclined to go after Ted on that one, but he's a nice guy, and the title speaks for itself. Based on the title of the chapter it's pretty clear that Koichi Tohei doesn't know (at least when he, or his writer, wrote that book) a damn thing about golf.

Would you go to Koichi Tohei to learn about rocket science because he has a tenth dan in Aikido?

By the way, I do think her rank is relevant. She has some skill in aikido and based on her resume some knowledge about golf as well. Probably she knows more about both of these than most of her critics but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be critics. We criticize movies all the time and most of us have never made a movie. The world seems to get along just fine.