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Old 07-27-2003, 05:42 PM   #1
Michael Neal
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The downfall of Aikido?

http://www.kiaigolf.com/kiaigolf.shtm

You must view all the pages on this site to get the full picture here

my favorite page:

http://www.kiaigolf.com/aikido3.htm

Pay particular attention to the photo with Frank Doran and the caption "Note the calm flow of Ki from Doran Sensei -- and its vibrant electrical effect on Jamie Sensei!"

hahahahahahaah!!!!!!!!!!! Oh my God!! I would not be hapy about this if I were Doran Sensei.
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Old 07-27-2003, 06:58 PM   #2
shihonage
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"You bow to the sword with deep respect. As you hold the sword in your two hands they become one, joining left & right, upper & lower, mind & body. You extend the sword forth from your center-line, channeling your thought into conscious action. The sword is sharp and shining, an instrument of unification and purification. It helps you sever instability and confusion and cut directly to the core. The sword summons every ounce of your courage -- conviction -- compassion."

Jamie Sensei

"With just a little imagination, much the same can be seen and said of a golf club.

You organize your body and mind down the shining shaft of the club to the golf ball. Left & right, upper & lower, inner & outer, thought & action, reason & intuition - all unite in holding the club at address.

The challenges posed by golf - to unite self with club, club with ball, ball with fairway, chip with green, putt with cup - are enough to purify the least and greatest of people!

The KiAi golf club draws you into a clear focus that vitalizes body, mind and game."
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Old 07-27-2003, 09:31 PM   #3
kensparrow
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I'm guessing people would be much more willing to let you play through if you were carrying a sword instead of a golf club.
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Old 07-27-2003, 10:12 PM   #4
PhilJ
 
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Quote:
Ken Sparrow (kensparrow) wrote:
I'm guessing people would be much more willing to let you play through if you were carrying a sword instead of a golf club.
I love it Ken, very good point!

Phillip Johnson
Enso Aikido Dojo, Burnsville, MN
An Aikido Bukou Dojo
http://www.aikidobukou.com
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Old 07-27-2003, 11:52 PM   #5
Chris Raywood
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Everytime I think I have seen it all, I am reminded how truly naive I am, or maybe I'm just having a bad dream.
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Old 07-28-2003, 07:47 AM   #6
jaxonbrown
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I heard some people say they can find their center by playing golf.

I hate golf. I used to like it but I hate it now. Too many rich guys in expensive shoes, golf shirts and shorts always crowding you from behind because they can afford golf carts when you prefer to hoof it. They complain to the marshall and then he harasses you to hurry up.

But anyway, I fear this kind of 'pop' aikido. People who are into the zen/yoga/chickory-coffee scene are already bored with meditation and breathing exercises. I sure hope it doesn't catch on. The next thing we'll be seeing are kids wearing hakamas down low so thier rear ends are showing. "hip hop" aikido anyone?
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Old 07-28-2003, 08:30 AM   #7
tedehara
 
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In his 1976 book Book of Ki: Co-Ordinating Mind and Body in Daily Life by Koichi Tohei (10th Dan), he devotes pgs 57-63 on "How to Raise Your Handicap in Golf".

Mind and body co-ordination should extend to everything in your life. This includes other activities besides aikido.

Last edited by tedehara : 07-28-2003 at 08:41 AM.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 07-28-2003, 10:36 AM   #8
Russ Qureshi
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Why is there a need to "market" aikido? I dislike the idea of aikido and (fill in the blank). Jamie sensei has her angle, her niche, to make a living (and I wouldn't even hint that she doesn't have that right) but to focus so sharply on the golf angle cheapens aikido as budo. I first read about her in ATM and my reaction was "Oh my God! Only in America!" I don't know her but on face value it seems like a huge sell out.

Cheers,

Russ
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Old 07-28-2003, 10:38 AM   #9
PhilJ
 
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While the pmpousness of the advert is disturbing to many people, and even funny (to me), I guess I don't see anything wrong with it. Odd it is associated with aikido, since these principles could come from just about anywhere.

The martial arts have taken on some seriously silly things over the decades, and somehow manage to outlast it all.

Anyway, I hope a hakama craze catches on, I'd love to wear mine to work, with a nice comfy kimono!

*Phil

Phillip Johnson
Enso Aikido Dojo, Burnsville, MN
An Aikido Bukou Dojo
http://www.aikidobukou.com
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Old 07-28-2003, 11:30 AM   #10
Erik
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Quote:
Ted Ehara (tedehara) wrote:
"How to Raise Your Handicap in Golf".
I've always said those ki exercises didn't work.
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Old 07-28-2003, 12:31 PM   #11
deepsoup
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Quote:
Jaime McGrath wrote:
All kidding aside... Personally this is one of the silliest things I have ever seen. But I think Golf is one of the silliest and Aiki-"insert whatever non-martial activity you desire" is another. But I hope her the best in all that she does and who knows, maybe I am missing something....
I dont normally go in for "me too" posts, but I couldn't resist an opportunity to wholeheartedly agree with Jaime, so: "me too, 100%"
Quote:
Michael Neal (right back at the start of the thread) wrote:
Pay particular attention to the photo with Frank Doran and the caption "Note the calm flow of Ki from Doran Sensei -- and its vibrant electrical effect on Jamie Sensei!"
Hey, c'mon Michael, fair's fair: you can clearly see the "vibrant electrical effect" by the way 'Jamie Sensei's hair is standing on end!

Sean

x
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Old 07-28-2003, 01:04 PM   #12
shihonage
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I think there would be no issue if she just advertised herself as a professional golf instructor.

No "kiai", no hakama in photographs, no comparisons of sword and a golf club.
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Old 07-28-2003, 04:02 PM   #13
Sharon Seymour
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Wow. Powerful women. Scary, aren't they? So few people have the dedication to not only achieve a high level of practice under highly-regarded and demanding teachers, but also to take their practice off the mat and reach out to those who might never consider martial arts training.

Go back to the kiai golf website and click on the Jamie Zimron link. Read the resume.

As Bill Cosby said, "I don't know the secret of success, but the secret of failure is to try and please everybody."

-----
There is more to balance than not falling over.
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Old 07-28-2003, 04:30 PM   #14
Misogi-no-Gyo
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???

Quote:
Sharon Seymour wrote:
Wow. Powerful women. Scary, aren't they?

These type of comments are unnecessary and uncalled for. No one here challenged the concept simply on the basis that it was developed by a woman. This is a good example where a you are asking us all to take a "leap of faith" in terms of making a connection between two things (gender and critique of the concept) that clearly do not exist.

Most unfortunately, it negates any reasonable reading of the rest of your post. Sad, because when you write,

Quote:
So few people have the dedication to not only achieve a high level of practice under highly-regarded and demanding teachers, but also to take their practice off the mat and reach out to those who might never consider martial arts training.

it is a much more powerful statement - one I happen to agree with you on - one hundred percent.

Quote:
Go back to the kiai golf website and click on the Jamie Zimron link. Read the resume.
You can easily point at the resume of just about any accomplished individual and say, "See here, look at all these accomplishments." That doesn't really offer anything in terms of insulation from that very same individual doing the most bone-headed thing in the world. Accomplished people may, in fact, be a group with the single highest ratio of doing bone-headed things to learning from those very same mistakes.

Quote:
As Bill Cosby said, "I don't know the secret of success, but the secret of failure is to try and please everybody."
Again, truer words have yet to be spoken. However, this doesn't mean that one should negate the thinking, opinions and considerations of others in their own field.

Clearly, most of the comments here have been negative. Even those, such as myself, who support her initiative, and applaud her talent and ingenuity, still have some issue with the packaging.

While, I have serious problems with wearing Hakama on the golf-course, and didn't really care for her demonstration at the Aiki-Expo, I think that what she is doing, while not remarkable in any sense, is being very true to her own path. Perhaps the better way of marketing these two separate things, is to keep them separate, encouraging those interested in one to cross over into the other via the relationship she has with the individuals that study with her. That, to me, would be a more powerful method, as opposed to creating some artificial way of marketing the two together, in an attempt that only achieves something that is devoid of the natural culture of either element.

Last edited by Misogi-no-Gyo : 07-28-2003 at 04:34 PM.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 07-28-2003, 05:47 PM   #15
deepsoup
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Quote:
Sharon Seymour wrote:
Wow. Powerful women. Scary, aren't they?
Some powerful women are utterly terrifying, you're right. I refer the British reader (and those in the know) to the dreaded milk snatcher. 'nuff said.

But thats not really what you mean, is it? You mean we're all being sexist, and we're only mocking 'Jamie Sensei's website because she is female. (And please note, it is the website, not the woman, being mocked in this thread.)

That'll be it. I expect none of us would be mocking a male golf coach posing on the course in gi and hakama. (Or indeed on the mat, posing in golfing gear lining up an imaginary shot with a golf club - check the gallery.)

Oh, hang on a minute... yes we would!

The resume is very impressive, she may be a wonderful aikidoist (maybe even an aikidoka). I'm sure there's a lot more money to be made teaching golf than there is teaching aikido and in a market as competitive as that it sure can't hurt to have a gimmick. A unique selling point, as I believe the marketing people call it. I wish her all the best, I really do.

But the fact remains its an extremely cheesy website, and I'll titter about it if I want, ok?

Sean
x
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Old 07-28-2003, 06:00 PM   #16
Michael Neal
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Quote:
Go back to the kiai golf website and click on the Jamie Zimron link. Read the resume
Did you happen to catch the last entry on her resume "2001 Appointed Aikido Division Head for Juko-Kai USA by the Founder/Soke Dr. Rod Sacharnowski."

If you know anything about this organization you would agree with me that this is contrary to impressive.

Also, a great deal of the items on her resume seem to be self started projects and perhaps embellishments that hardly reflect anything impressive at all.

There are however some interesting things on her resume which makes it so sad that she destroys her otherwise notable credibility with nonsense.
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Old 07-28-2003, 06:36 PM   #17
Michael Neal
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http://www.mcgregorsmartialarts.com/...nstructors.asp

LOL, here she is on a juko kai website
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Old 07-28-2003, 08:31 PM   #18
tedehara
 
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Quote:
Erik Haselhofer (Erik) wrote:
I've always said those ki exercises didn't work.
When you make 10th Dan, I will reconsider.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 07-28-2003, 09:16 PM   #19
Michael Neal
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I did not post this in order to put anyone down or to attack the spiritual Aikido types. My motive is a love for Aikido. So many people are put off by this kind of stuff and decide to take another martial art. This weakens Aikido because it cuts out many capable people who could bring Aikido to a new level.

It is great to practice Aikido with a skinny hippie dude and it is a lot of fun, but practicing with him and someone the size of Tank Abbott or an atheletic college wrestler would improve my Aikido capabilites alot more. Aikido can be for everyone but it should not put off those who are serious about learning a martial art and those who are very serious about is appplicability against a 250lb biker on crystal meth.

I am sorry but talking your child out of saying bad things about you and ending it in a peaceful hug does not cut it as self defense for many people. Neither does a Kiai golf swing.

When I see things like this Kiai Golf website I see the bastardization of Aikido.

And I know that because of things like the growth of Aikido as an effective martial art will stagnate because the best & brightest will go to things like BJJ, MMA, Judo etc..

Frankly it pisses me off.
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Old 07-28-2003, 09:53 PM   #20
opherdonchin
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Hey Michael,

The website put me off as well, but I think you are mixing up two very different issues. What put me off about the website has little to do with an over-spiritualization of Aikido and a lot to do with (what seems to me) poor marketing choices. My reaction to this website was not really different than my reaction to websites that promote someone's school with an overly agressive and seemingly hyped emphasis on his martial skill and martial credentials.

I don't have anything against either martial skill or the exension of Aikido to the rest of our lives. However, either of them, when it is done in poor taste, can be a potential turn off for people interested in Aikido.

Another problem I have with your post is this. You pay lip service to valuing equally those who study Aikido for its daily applications and those who study it to learn to fight. However, the feel of your post is really that the 'best & brightest' are the ones who value beating people up more than they value improvements in their daily lives. My own prejudice, as is probably clear, is in the opposite direction. I think posts like yours could potentially alienate people (my 'best & brightest') who would like to do Aikido but are worried about feeling accepted and valued. As you said, "this weakens Aikido because it cuts out many capable people who could bring Aikido to a new level."

My final problem with you post is that I think that Aikido is stronger than you are giving it credit for. If it can survive its founder's esoteric mysticism and universe-embracng spirituality, then it can survive Aiki Golf as well.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 07-28-2003, 10:08 PM   #21
Erik
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Quote:
Ted Ehara (tedehara) wrote:
When you make 10th Dan, I will reconsider.
Ted, I'm getting the sense that you are not a golfer. The point is to lower one's handicap not raise it.
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Old 07-29-2003, 01:29 AM   #22
YEME
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you americans crack me up.

next there'll be drive thru dojo's opening up in vegas.

buy ki for 5.95.

this week i've learnt to lessen my outrage at these weird marketing stretegies long enough to come to the conclusion that those who are serious about Aikido will not be affected by them.

And those who fall for them will just burn a substantial hole in their wallet.

but then, i don't play golf.

by the way...wouldn't the hakama impair putting a little?

Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome.
--Isaac Asimov

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Old 07-29-2003, 05:57 AM   #23
Michael Neal
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The statement I quoted earlier has alot to do with the mystical/spiritual aspect of Aikido:

"Note the calm flow of Ki from Doran Sensei -- and its vibrant electrical effect on Jamie Sensei!"

This site is riddled with new age spiritual Aikido not just golf.
Quote:
the feel of your post is really that the 'best & brightest' are the ones who value beating people up more than they value improvements in their daily lives.
What I am saying is that many who are very serious about martial arts and who have alot of physical talent are put off by this stuff. I don't realy care about the people who want to beat people up, that is a different breed all together. There are lots of people who currently practice Aikido that have physical talent but I believe that the art is weakened when many good martial artists go elsewhere because of this kind of nonsense.

I am sure Aikido will survive but I think it is hampered and its delevopment is somewhat hindered.
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Old 07-29-2003, 06:10 AM   #24
Peter Goldsbury
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Perhaps this is something of a local difficulty.

Over here in my part of the world, some people who are fanatical about golf also do aikido and I am sure they blend the two together in some way. They just don't make videos and talk about it.

Suggesting that this will lead to the downfall of aikido is perhaps an over statement.

I think the problem here is the opposite: aikido, especially as it is practised in large organizations, tends to be part of the political establishment.

Best regards,

P A Goldsbury
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Hiroshima, Japan
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Old 07-29-2003, 08:57 AM   #25
Robert Rumpf
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Michael, you might want to consider one other thing as well: that a "serious martial artist" with "a lot of physical talent" who cannot see the applicability behind these softer takes on the art is liable to miss a lot of the subtleties of Aikido as well. Such a person is not helpful on the mat for a long, long time, but more a hindrance. They also seem to plateau fairly readily as well even if they suffer through training for a while.

When or if they grow up, open their eyes, and wake up, then perhaps they are more likely to actually get a clue at Aikido faster, instead of spending the first 1-2 years of their training wrestling on the mat instead of actually learning Aikido. I'm not suggesting this isn't healthy for them, but it is not necessarily healthy for those of us who serve as makiwara.

Frankly, I've found that in my own training I learn more Aikido out of training with "skinny hippies" than with "college wrestlers".. or at least college wrestlers who don't do Aikido much.

As for golf itself..? I don't think its any accident that golf and baseball are both extremely popular in Japan. In particular, you can occasionally see people practicing their golf swing without a club at subway stops in Japan. These two hobbies have a lot of commonalities with Japanese culture, and it is a mistake to dismiss those connections, and to overlook their overlap in skill and mentality with martial training.

Making videos about it is very American. That doesn't make it wrong. It also wouldn't surprise me if there were Japanese videos about those connections as well. Golf is that much of an obsession in Japan.

I agree with Peter in that political issues and strictures within Aikido seem to be more active in weakening the art than those you find contemptuous by trying to expand its reach. Your comments are in that direction - you judge or berate others for applications of Aikido you find inappropriate, but that don't injure your growth. That is not a good path for the growth of the art.
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