The use of Japanese in the dojo

Originally posted by Nick I'm saying that it seems wiser to worry about the different ways aikido can and cannot be used after you've gained some proficiency in the art, not before.

Whoever said that the people who are suggesting we drop things like Japanese from a dojo aren't proficient in the art? Sounds like you're making a mighty big assumption here.

The reason why I care so much about maintaining at least some traditions, is simply because all things start small... calling something "first arm bar" instead of ikkyo, which is not a big problem and sometimes necessary. However, as aforementioned, my fear is that as we start to break small traditions, we will begin to break bigger traditions ("we're american, we don't need to bow" etc).

And how does breaking these traditions make aikido any less effective?

O'sensei didn't have to create Aikido. He could have kept it to himself, and turned away anyone who asked to learn under him. If we don't try to preserve at least some of that spirit and integrity that made O'sensei and his Aikido so great, can we really call what we do Aikido with no second thought?

Whoever said we shouldn't "preserve at least some of that spirit (blah blah blah)"? It seems you're jumping off the deep end here.

Now people can learn beautiful movements, and gain wisdom from art, but to take a dance and call it Aikido, is wrong in my eyes. If you want to learn a beautiful, dynamic form of art, take up ballet, not aikido.

Please show me where anyone, including myself, has said that ineffective aikido is what we should all be doing.

If all you want to be able to do is throw someone down without any regard to the philosophy of aikido of doing minimum harm to the attacker, then that's great and all, but is that aikido? How about if I go into your beginner's class and snap a few wrists without caring about helping beginners?

PS-- yes, I do save my sensei a seat when we go out... wait, should I not call him sensei anymore? Is that too traditional?

You obviously didn't understand my comment, then. It's about the "tradition" of placing a person higher up than you sitting at the tokonoma while the lesser sits at the shimoza.

You wrote, "Listen, use whatever language you want. That's not aikido." Since you also said that using Japanese in the dojo is a tradition, can we also further assume that traditions are "not aikido"?

"Do not go where you have no business. Do not listen to talk which does not concern you."

The words of Zen master Seung Sahn. I should have paid more attention to them before I was more vocal.

Nick

one last note... this thread ended up being much more interesting (and educational) on e-budo:

http://204.95.207.136/vbulletin/show...?threadid=7273

Nick

Sounds like you hit the nail on the head to me. Tradition just adds to the art, it does not take away anything.

Originally posted by Juan Alberto Sounds like you hit the nail on the head to me. Tradition just adds to the art, it does not take away anything.

Right -- tradition is not the art itself but "stuff" that gets added onto it. Taking it away doesn't leave the art any less.

It's nice of you to quote a philosopher, Nick. I was getting worried all you cared about was effective techniques.

This is rather interesting... Besides my Aikido I also practise Taekwon-do (ITF) and I used to practise Judo. And this topic has always come up, every now and then.

Not long ago we discussed this in the Taekwon-do forum. The conclusion we came to, is that we don't agree all the time...

It seems (and this is not bashing or critizising anyone) that Americans and other english speaking counries are less likely to "feel like using other than native language"... Btw, is "native" really the right choice of words here? Or does it sound like you're all aboriginals?

In Sweden there are very few dojos, regardless of art practised, that uses other then Japanese, Korean and so forth. An american friend of mine said that many americans (sorry for the generalization, wich by definition probably is false... but anyway) don't "like" to learn new languages. Most of the states population only speak english.

Sorry if anyone took this as some kind of bashing, wich it is not intended to be.

Oh yeah, almost forgot; I would never try to use swedish terms for the Aikido techniques. Why? 'Cause it would be even more confusing then the Japanse ones!

Besides, it really isn't that hard even though I really stink at Japanese (I almost whisper the "domo..." part after each session).

I better stop this posting, since I'm just babbling anyway...


My conclusion:
Call it a "Nikyo" or a "Bend hand pressed down in a certain angle", as long as you enjoy what you're doing!


/Patrik

PS. Do I get a prize for writing the longest posting ever?

Originally posted by Ta Kung PS. Do I get a prize for writing the longest posting ever?

Not even close....

Originally posted by Andy Right -- tradition is not the art itself but "stuff" that gets added onto it. Taking it away doesn't leave the art any less. It's nice of you to quote a philosopher, Nick. I was getting worried all you cared about was effective techniques.

Of course not. The techniques of aikido make it a great martial art. But the philosophy of aikido makes it a truly great martial art.

A long time ago, I saw a martial arts class that used all english. They had to spend quite a while to figure out which technique was being spoken of. ("ohh, this one... no... that one? no... hmm).

And if I stress effective technique, well... that's just me.

Plus, Seung Sahn Soen-sa is a person I find quite interesting...

Nick

It might be important to remember that all of these names are basically the same as the convoluted English ones, except that they are reduced in length due to the nature of Japanese pronunciation of Chinese characters. If you took the original Japanese pronunciation for all of these little tidbits of description and lined it all up, it would take just as long to get cheese log of name out. But instead the onyomi or chinese reading (minus all those cool tones) is used. The moral of the story is most of these names are efficient, if your counting in syllables.
In Japanese Baseball words, right field is raito, left field is refuto, and a strike is a suturaiku. If you had to change those words into some lengthy explanation of what they mean, you would have a real hard time calling Japanese baseball games. Aikido is much less universal than baseball, and so it might be easier to just stick with the Japanese words, rather than use the *universal english equivalents* since no one knows what the heck aikido techniques involve until they learn them.

This post deleted. By the poster. Yay.

To whomever read what was here and brought it up to Sensei, my apologies are in order. I apologize, and did not mean any disrespect. I wasn't trying to 'impress' anyone.

P.S. I'd like to know whomever it was that read this at my dojo, so that I may apologize face to face.

I wonder how Aikidoka in Japan would pronounce english phrases if the roles were reversed? Just a thought...

Well they butcher them no question.

They take english words and fit them to katakana syllables with some interesting results.

If you don't know the rules you can often get away with adding an o to the end of the word.

By the way my students seemed to like the occaisional foray into Japanese. I describe the meaning, they enjoy the connection.

hey guys, calm down.

a rose is a rose is rose if not by another name! or something like that!

A kotegaeshi is the same thing as an outside wrist lock - at least I think it is.

Let's just study the art and forget the stuff that makes us want to fight.

Originally posted by JMCavazos A kotegaeshi is the same thing as an outside wrist lock - at least I think it is.

But you see it isn't - understanding the Japanese terms would allow you to understand the technique. Translations often fail.

Without taking one side or another, I would just mention that also the garments we wear during aikido practice are mereley traditional everyday Japanese clothes, adapted slightly for practice - stronger, thicker etc. Should we put them aside, too, as there are much more convenient Western style garments for practice ? Have in mind that part of the Aikido technique is based on the properties of these particular garments - e.g. where to hide your knife or put your sword.

Then, also the sword practice (an old fashioned weapon by itself) is based on traditions such as on which side we hold the sword when walking in the street.

And Suwari waza - does anyone use this way to walk anymore , even in Japan, in real life ?

As for bowing to the picture of O Sensei, I have been to several dojos in Japan and there was no picture but a shinto shrine on the wall or the national flag of Japan.

Several Japanese dojos have adopted the coloured belt system while it seems to me that in the West we stick to the 'more traditional' system of white until sho-dan.

What do the above mean about tradition ?

I must add that having the names of the techniques in one language all over the world has made it easy for me to participate in training in variuos counties and feel comfortable there.

Thank you for listening,
Dana

Originally posted by Dana Several Japanese dojos have adopted the coloured belt system while it seems to me that in the West we stick to the 'more traditional' system of white until sho-dan.

Not to detract from the other points, but the colored belt system was introduced by Jigoro Kano, the same person who brought the sho-dan to Japanese martial arts, so it's pretty hard to argue that they're any less "traditional".

FWIW, I usually only hear complaints about using Japanese from English speakers (who always seem to want everything translated into English) - most other people appreciate having a lingua franca that's good throughout the world.

Best,

Chris

Hi!

I just want to add some food for thought.

What if musical terms in italian weren't understood by musicians in common.

This is exactly the same issue. Conformity helps a multi-national occurance like Aikido to be understood in the exact same way. Sure there's german, french and english terms but they are nowhere near beeing used as frequently. Why? Because the italians where first. Aikido couldn't have been developed to it's present shape anywhere else than in Japan. It stems from highly japanese or atleast asian concepts like KI etc. Why not take pride in honoring the cultural background from where it came by using the japanese terms. When translating names of techniques you can't help if some of the more subtle thoughts behind the names are lost. I personaly take pride in respecting the original message by trying to learn the exact meaning of the japanese terms.

Jasper

Originally posted by Jappzz When translating names of techniques you can't help if some of the more subtle thoughts behind the names are lost. I personaly take pride in respecting the original message by trying to learn the exact meaning of the japanese terms.

There's no "subtlety" in the names of the techniques. The subtlety in learning a techniques comes from training, not from trantlating the name.

If you disagree, please tell me just how someone will be better able to perform ikkyo by knowing it's the "first teaching"? Or kaitennage by knowing it's the "rotary throw"?

There's no "original message" that you speak of. O-sensei didn't name the techniques. His students did.

Originally posted by Andy There's no "original message" that you speak of. O-sensei didn't name the techniques. His students did.

More like the names of many techniques existed before Ueshiba M and were used by Ueshiba himself.

Originally posted by PeterR More like the names of many techniques existed before Ueshiba M and were used by Ueshiba himself.

Yes and no. Neither Sokaku Takeda nor Morihei Ueshiba were big on naming - the naming systems were largely formulated by their successors.

So yes, things like "wrist twist" did certainly exist in Japanese prior to Takeda/Ueshiba, but the particular naming systems that were implemented were new creations.

FWIW, the naming conventions in Aikido (and most other Japanese martial arts, in my experience) tend to be fairly straightforward and pragmatic. For contrast, try comparing them with naming conventions in many Chinese martial arts.

Best,

Chris

Ok, ok!

Maybe there's nothing esoteric about ikkyo etc. But what about kokyo, tenshin, irimi and other more complex metaphores. Maybe im just talking for myself but isn't translating these terms into more commonly understood metaphores going to change them a little from the original. This might not be a big problem. But to state that O-sensei or contributors to the earlier arts that he studied had no subtle meanings in the metaphores that surrounded their techniques seems strange to me. I mean isn't that in a way a part of okuden. Morihei Ueshiba was to my knowledge a highly spiritual and religous man and i think it would be rather strange if none of this had influenced him when he either named tech's or atleast chose from different metaphores to best describe them. I know that a lot of people put a lot less emphasis on the more abstract part of Aikido but i don't think you should rule out the fact that there might be more subtle sides to the teachings of Aikido.

Hugs for y'all

Jasper

Originally posted by Jappzz Maybe there's nothing esoteric about ikkyo etc. But what about kokyo, tenshin, irimi and other more complex metaphores.

No difference. As you just stated, they're metaphors. By definition, a metaphor is "a figure of speech in which a word or phrase literally denoting one kind of object or idea is used in place of another to suggest a likeness or analogy between them".

If you need to provide further analogous explanation past their literal translations ("breath", "turning of the body", "entering with the body"), the Japanese terms you just mentioned contain nothing more than what their English translations do. As such, knowing the Japanese terms does not give any more subtlety than knowing their literal translations.

I am not "rul[ing] out the fact that there might be more subtle sides to the teachings of aikido" as that would be switching arguments in midstream. Rather, I am merely showing that knowing the Japanese terms for techniques in and of themselves do not lend any more "subtlety" than using English which was your original gist.

Originally posted by PeterR But you see it isn't - understanding the Japanese terms would allow you to understand the technique. Translations often fail.

http://www.baywell.ne.jp/users/drlat...go/diction.htm

That Ichiro guy did alright and my understanding is that he doesn't speak English. Somehow I'm sure he understood a hanging breaking ball when he saw one.

Hm. Maybe I should just put on my training outfit , go on the mat and sit on my legs while the instructor shows us punch turning wrist counter into a second technique or maybe a axe hack first technique, front and back . Maybe if we're lucky, we'll get to do some both hand sitting throw/pin , and the senior students will show us some multi-attacker forms .

Shouldn't we just put on our gis, sit in seiza, do tsuki tenkan kotegaeshi nikkyo, or some shomenuchi ikkyo omote to ura? If we're lucky, we can do some kokyuho, and the senpai will do some randori.

Just my .02

I went to the link Eric provided, and it's interesting. If you pronounce the Japanese version of most of the words it sounds strangely like the english.

de gemu: day game (as opposed to naita)
domu: dome
era: error

Also I believe linguistically, its very common in the English language to use the native version of a word but use our own anglesized pronunciation. How many of us pronounce the "r" in ryotetori, or morotetori? We are using English because we are just practicing the way of assimilating foreign words into our language that our ancestor have done. Because of this, I have no problem with using Japanese in a dojo. But then again I love learning foreign languages.