Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

David Enevoldsen wrote: Does anyone think that deification is detrimental to long-term training?

Rinjiro Shirata was pretty clear that he thought O`Sensei to be a kami sent to offer humankind a path to enlightenment. He trained longer than just about anyone and was the only shihan that I haven`t heard disparaged by someone, a technical genius by all accounts.

Charles Hill

Isn't katatetori also used because it is a stable and useful introduction to the concept
of ma-ai? It's also an easier beginner's position than the more likely (in a real-life
altercation) mune- or sode-dori.
Hope this helps -
Robin Wilton

Rinjiro Shirata was pretty clear that he thought O`Sensei to be a kami sent to offer humankind a path to enlightenment. He trained longer than just about anyone and was the only shihan that I haven`t heard disparaged by someone, a technical genius by all accounts.

Interesting. I know little about him and was unaware that he held that belief. So your answer to my question then, is no, deification (literally, here) is not detrimental to training. Hmmm....

Robin Wilton wrote: Isn't katatetori also used because it is a stable and useful introduction to the concept of ma-ai? It's also an easier beginner's position than the more likely (in a real-life altercation) mune- or sode-dori. Hope this helps - Robin Wilton

Very good point Robin. We have always been taught that Katate tori and Kata tori should be practiced as tool for understanding ma-ai. The technique may have potential as an attack in the real world (let's be honest, quite literally anything can happen and can be used in a fight), but it is particularly useful for learning the point at which an attacker breaches ma-ai.

I have seen a few senior Aikidoka use katate tori in a rather unique way; it's surprising (and sometimes amusing) to see an attackers reaction when said Aikidoka puts an open hand "in their face". Quite often the attackers first reaction is to grab the hand, or try to stop the arm. I'm sure the attacker doesn't intend to grab the arm, but what else do you do in response to an ostensible attack aimed straight at you?

Good thread though guys

I just read this link in another thread on katatedori over in the techniques thread. I think it`s also relevant here.

http://bujindesign.com/newsletter/20...training.shtml

rgds

Bryan

Robin Wilton wrote: Isn't katatetori also used because it is a stable and useful introduction to the concept of ma-ai? It's also an easier beginner's position than the more likely (in a real-life altercation) mune- or sode-dori. Hope this helps - Robin Wilton

i think my friend Robin got a point over here, is safer and easier to beginners to learn how energy travels from UKE to NAGE in katatetori.

Miguel Angel wrote: Even as an old man of eighty, he could disarm any foe, down any number of attackers.

Don't believe the hype.

what are you trying to say TIM, that the founder couldn't disarm any man when he was eighty.
He didn't need to disarm, he could disappear.

Once we have learned how to grab from a protected position, we can next explore variations of the grab...either pulling, pushing or holding. After all, in a martial or street situation the grab is only the first step. It is used to hold or to draw the victim closer, in order to gain control. That accomplished, the next move could be a blow to the face or a choke or some other controlling move.


Hey Bateman this is good. This should be all to those ignorants, please learn before making an unfaithfully reply from Aikido.

I haven't seen any ignorant or 'unfaithfully' replies...anyone else?

Ron

ok, so Ron tell me about pracitce in a Doshinkan Dojo. im from Aikikai

Seminar: Donovan Waite Sensei in Dominican Republic
Posted 11/04/2004 10:45pm [from Miguel Angel Pérez]
On November 21, Donovan Waite Sensei (6th Dan Shidoin) will be at the Dominican Republic. ShugyoShin Dojo Aikikai in Santo Domingo is glad to celebrate their first anniversary at the Matsunaga Gym with a Donovan sensei seminar which takes place 10am until 7pm. For more information visit our website at www.Shugyoshindojo.i8.com

Miguel Angel wrote: Hey Bateman this is good. This should be all to those ignorants, please learn before making an unfaithfully reply from Aikido.

Hi Miguel,

I`m sorry but now you`ve really got me confused?

rgds

Bryan

im not talking about you Bateman, Im putting your words showing a very good material.

Hi Miguel,

thankyou

rgds

Bryan

Well, you could do a search on my name here, at e-budo, or at aikidojournal...I'm kind of tied up with network problems right now...maybe in a couple of days I can see if I can write something up.

The brief version is that the Doshinkan was founded by Yukio Utada Sensei, a 7th dan under Gozo Shioda Kancho's organization of Yoshinkan Aikido. Utada Sensei just celebrated his 30th year teaching in Phila. The web-site is www.yoshinkai.org, I believe. There are pictures and some mpgs on the website, so feel free to take a look and browse around. In fact, the technique on the front page should give you a pretty good idea of what some of the techniques are like I think his yearly message is on there too. That should give you a good start.

Best,
Ron

Miguel,

One of the most heartbreaking things in the world for Aikidoka to persevere through is the disillusionment of realizing that O-Sensei, as marvelous as he was in his prime, was not invincible.

The more passionately you believe that he was, the harder the fall when you recognize that his students were taking polite ukemi, and that his art, Aikido, will not make you the "invincible' warrior that Morihei Ueshiba is often described as.

Just my perspective, from someone who has been down that road before. Something to think about.

Roy

ATTENTION: Violence and maybe harsh language.

You can see katatedori as a setting for a takedown in this video clip. A fight in a Hawaiian beach.

http://www.bullshido.com/videos//Hawaiian_Beatdown.wmv

Running time between 3.10 and 3.17 approx.

Katatedori is not an "unrealistic attack" if the attacker is a BJJ'er.

Roy thanks for your advice, really. I'm not trying to be invincible, but for real I'm always trying to be better than The founder. I've been down the road my self, I'm in martial arts for 6 years now, i have practiced Kung-Fu and Tai-chi from Zhao-Bao.
I'm grateful of meting friends like you, i think people can learn at any place and any time.

Roy Dean wrote: Miguel, O-Sensei...was not invincible. The more passionately you believe that he was, the harder the fall when you recognize that his students were taking polite ukemi, and that his art, Aikido, will not make you the "invincible' warrior that Morihei Ueshiba is often described as. Roy

I would agree that Ueshiba is idolised to some extent, however I think much of the video footage with 'polite ukemi' is misunderstood. Ueshiba was illustrating blending, and if uke just throws themselves over, you let them. The most interesting snippets are where uke changes or resists, and you'll see Ueshiba respond very quickly and continue to unbalance uke.

Also aikido is a framework of training - not a realistic attack scenario. In actual challenges Ueshiba was known to be very devestating and regularly used crippling strikes. What we see in video footage is only one aspect of (in my opinion) a very well rounded and skilled martial artist.

However I completely agree with your sentiment Roy - we have to be the best we can be rather than just imitate someone else.

P.S. in my experience katate dori is used (e.g. by security, bouncers, police etc). However IMO it serves a fundamental aspect of aikido; starting from contact and learning to blend with that person. There is no different between katate dori and a strike except that you need to make contact initially with uke, rather than the contact already existing. In addition (and as mentioned previously), katate dori serves a very traditional role; if you are armed with a sword or knife (or gun) your opponent is likely to try and grab your wrist to try and stop themselves being stabbed. All the aikido techniques allow you to kill someone, who is trying to restain you, with your weapon.

Hey what a fight Demetrio, i think i saw this guy at the real life on a MTV documentary. Its him

Miguel,

Cool response. We can all learn from each other, and the day we stop is the day our techniques trap us in a box of our own design.

If your heart's goal is is to truly be like the founder, then I'd urge you to learn all you can in Aikido, then go back and learn the roots from which the art came. Any good aikijujutsu will enhance your perspective on what Aikido is and how it came to be. Also, achieving martial mastery has never been easier than now, with the advent of the internet and martial training videos. An entire wold of martial techniques are now available, for the first time in history. Good luck and good training to you, my friend.

Roy Dean

Just a few days for our Donovan Sensei Seminar, I'm exited.

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: ATTENTION: Violence and maybe harsh language. You can see katatedori as a setting for a takedown in this video clip. A fight in a Hawaiian beach. http://www.bullshido.com/videos//Hawaiian_Beatdown.wmv Running time between 3.10 and 3.17 approx. Katatedori is not an "unrealistic attack" if the attacker is a BJJ'er.

OUCH!