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Old 11-02-2004, 07:19 AM   #1
Miguelspride67
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Freaky! Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

In Aikido we never attack. An attack is proof that one is out of control. Never run away from any kind of challenge, but do not try to suppress or control an opponent unnaturally. Let attackers come any way they like and then blend with them. Never chase after opponents. Redirect each attack and get firmly behind it.

The beauty of Aikido is that you can vary moves, just as long as you keep within the Aikido principles of redirection and adjustment.
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Old 11-02-2004, 07:58 AM   #2
batemanb
 
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

I'm not sure I understand your post having read your question.

Simplified.

Most Aikido techniques derive from the battlefield in ancient Japan, katate dori is not so much an attack (although it can be) as someone trying to prevent a sword being drawn.

In Aikido, this particular attack makes for a simple way to teach and practice certain principles within a technique. It is a simple way to get a good grounding in basic technique.

rgds

Bryan

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Old 11-02-2004, 08:56 AM   #3
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

ok, I'm going to get blasted for this...

Quote:
In Aikido we never attack.
Check out the pre-war aikido of the founder recorded in the book 'Budo'...also any of the pre-war films of Ueshiba Sensei. Ikkajo, nikajo, sankajo, yonkajo...the omote version is all done from shite (nage) attacking. The students of Saito Sensei do the same today, as does the yoshinkan, as well as some other styles.

Quote:
An attack is proof that one is out of control.
Not in my experience.

Quote:
Never run away from any kind of challenge, but do not try to suppress or control an opponent unnaturally.
I know plenty of challenges I'd run away from (guns, knives, too many opponants) as long as I wouldn't leave someone I care about in the lurch. Oh...how do you define unnaturally? Sometimes we hit the person first...then control or suppress them...is that unnatural?

Quote:
Let attackers come any way they like and then blend with them.
I remember an advanced class with a japanese 7th dan in the yoshinkan where a student used the word 'blend'...the instructor asked 'blend? what is this blend?'

Quote:
Never chase after opponents.
Many styles always follow up uke after throwing during freestyle.

Quote:
Redirect each attack and get firmly behind it.
No arguement there...this sounds like a translation from one of Ueshiba Sensei's post war writings. Loosely translated, of course...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 11-02-2004, 09:51 AM   #4
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

A translation of the paragraph above that I feel a little more comfortable with:

Quote:
Aikido is non-violence. Every human being has been entrusted with a mandate from heaven, and the victory we seek is to overcome all challenges and fight to the finish, accomplishing our goals. In Aikido we never attack. If you want to strike first, to gain advantage over someone, that is proof your training is insufficient, and it is really you yourself who has been defeated. Let your partner attack, and use his aggression against him. Do not cower from an attack; control it before it begins. Nonviolence is the true practice of Aikido.
Abstract taken from Shambhala Guide to Aikido by John Stevens (Boston: Shambhala Publications, 1996) found at site: http://www.aikidofederation.com/selectedTeachings.htm.

The things to remember about quotes like these are:

a) Context, context, context...

b) translation, translation, translation...

c) Same person...different times...different statements, different practices. In fact, even at the same time...

RT

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Old 11-02-2004, 10:50 AM   #5
cguzik
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

Miguel,

Are you saying that katatedori is not an attack? If so, I have to disagree. I think ukemi requires giving a good, strong attack, and that katatedori can be just as much so as any other attack. I also think that it is perfectly appropriate in aikido to take the initiative as tori, rather than to wait for the attack to come. According to what I have read and been taught, this understanding is not inconsistent with the teachings of the founder.

Chris
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Old 11-02-2004, 11:26 AM   #6
akiy
 
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

Also, see the Katatedori as an "Attack" thread.

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Old 11-02-2004, 11:53 AM   #7
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

Hi Jun,

Have you read the original japanese of the quotes above? I'd be interested in your take on the various translations...

Ron

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Old 11-02-2004, 12:09 PM   #8
akiy
 
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

Hi Ron,

No, I can't say I have. Does the author reference a source for the quote in Japanese?

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Old 11-02-2004, 12:15 PM   #9
suren
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

Miguel, could you please specify you question in more details? I think people do not understand your question made in a manner of a set of phrases expressing questionable ideas.
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Old 11-02-2004, 12:19 PM   #10
suren
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

BTW, How did you manage to make the number of "Gallery Images" to be -1?
Jun, is it some sort of bug in the system?
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Old 11-02-2004, 02:07 PM   #11
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

Hi Suren,

Its not a bug...its a 'feature'...

Ron (yeah, I work with computers...)

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Old 11-02-2004, 03:25 PM   #12
suren
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

Jun is fast in fixing those "features"
Ron, (yeah me too)
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Old 11-02-2004, 04:02 PM   #13
siwilson
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

Miguel,

There is attack in Aikido! Katate Mochi/Dori is an attack!

Quote:
In Aikido we never attack. An attack is proof that one is out of control.
I have such a big problem with statements like that! They usually come from soft style beginners that have read Aikido and the dynamic sphere, where they say there is no attack in Aikido!

Can you imagine, your wife/girl friend is being atacked and you have to say, "Sorry love, there is no attack in Aikido, so I can't do anything!" There is a massive amount of attack in Aikido, and AATDS is talking total rubbish!

Aikido has a very itelligent approach to defence and attack! The moral and spiritual Aikidoka shy away from the real Aikido that Ueshiba Sensei taught, which was hard and realised the very real statement that "attack is the best defence!"

Although, certain people in the world should learn that the above is only true when there is a real threat!!!!!!

Osu!

Si

Osu!
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Old 11-02-2004, 05:12 PM   #14
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

Hello Ron,

You might like to to balance the quotations you have given with the material entitled "Training Methods" that precedes the techniques shown in the 1938 "Budo" manual. In the Stevens translation it appears on pp.32-36. In the Japanese original, the page references are pp. 3-6. Have explained how to attack in these pages, Morihei Ueshiba then goes on to explain how to defend oneself against such attacks. (This material also appears in the 1933 "Budo Renshu" manual, but with slight modifications.)

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Old 11-03-2004, 12:28 PM   #15
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

Hi Peter,

That is exactly the material I was thinking of. Are you aware of the original language texts that John Stevens was translating in the quote I posted? If so, I was wondering if you would care to profer a translation, or if you could perhaps add some context? I'll recheck both "Budo" and "Budo Renshu" when I get a chance...

Ron Tisdale
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Old 11-03-2004, 02:37 PM   #16
Chuck.Gordon
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

Quote:
Miguel Angel wrote:
In Aikido we never attack. An attack is proof that one is out of control.
Eh? WTF?

Who says? You've never had ME attack you have you? I could show you some controlled agression. It might make you piss your pants.

Aikido MUST include GOOD attacking skills or it's a gelded, useless thing, no?

Who's your teacher? Have that one give me a call or e-mail. We could probably have some very fun talk over beers or glasses of wine.

Aikido is about RESOVLING conflict. It has nothing about being passive and non-violent.

Otherwise, it's just masturbation, neh?


Chuck

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Old 11-03-2004, 02:50 PM   #17
Chuck.Gordon
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

And besides, folks who question katatedori as an atack have obviously never had it properly applied.

Chuck

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Old 11-03-2004, 03:50 PM   #18
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

Quote:
Miguel Angel wrote:
In Aikido we never attack. An attack is proof that one is out of control. Never run away from any kind of challenge, but do not try to suppress or control an opponent unnaturally. Let attackers come any way they like and then blend with them. Never chase after opponents. Redirect each attack and get firmly behind it.

The beauty of Aikido is that you can vary moves, just as long as you keep within the Aikido principles of redirection and adjustment.
I just posted an article which relates to this subject on:

Aikido Journal Article

The idea that the nage waits for the attack is really a mistaken idea and is martially disadvantageous.

George S. Ledyard
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Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 11-03-2004, 05:20 PM   #19
Charles Hill
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
The idea that the nage waits for the attack is really a mistaken idea and is martially disadvantageous.
This makes sense to me. That is why Gichin Funakoshi`s "In karate, there is no first attack" confuses me. Was he simply wrong? Also, we have to somehow deal with the Founder`s "In Aikido, we never attack."

I`m not clear on the relationship between the first post and the thread title.
Charles Hill
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Old 11-04-2004, 02:18 PM   #20
Miguelspride67
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

Ok, let me tell you something people. What i just posted up there are words from Morihei Ueshiba, there were found in documents and poems. Morihei Ueshiba (1883-1969) was history's greatest martial artist. Even as an old man of eighty, he could disarm any foe, down any number of attackers.
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Old 11-04-2004, 02:25 PM   #21
Miguelspride67
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

i would like to gather diferents opinions on the subject
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Old 11-04-2004, 02:34 PM   #22
Miguelspride67
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

im not saying katatedori isn`t an atack. what im trying to ask is what is the objective?, why advance students prefer Shomenuchi and Yokomenuchi?, What is the true goal of Katatedori for an Aikido student of any level?
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Old 11-04-2004, 02:36 PM   #23
Dominic Toupin
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

There is no greatest martial artist...
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Old 11-04-2004, 02:45 PM   #24
Miguelspride67
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

you are wrong my man. You know nothing. Aikido originated with Morihei in Japan, it was intended to be a gift for all humankind. Many more have been and will be inspired by the universal message, i hope you will to. When the time comes dont be afraid, you would to be part of the family.

The divine beauty
Of heaven and earth!
All creation,
Members of
One family.
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Old 11-04-2004, 02:46 PM   #25
suren
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

I think we use katate dori to practice certain techniques (as we use any other attack). It's not usually applied in a fight as a first aggressive move, attackers usually prefer to punch first, but can well be a later part of attack. In my life I was grabbed that way several times during school fights, but it was never at the beginning of the attack.
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